PSU Calculation

[TheKDub]

8 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

And non-modular PSUs are not a MUST, I do not know wether or not you implied that, but if he has a case with good cable management and knows how to route cable there is nothing wrong with non-modular PSUs.

20 minutes ago, TheKDub said:

My biggest suggestion ...

Even in a case with good cable management, it's still nice to not have a dozen cables that you won't use sitcking out of the power supply wasting space. Not to mention most non-modualr power supplies tend to be fairly low end and have poorly bundled or unsleeved ketchup and mustard cables.

 

9 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

To me modularity are add-ons that are not as important as people think, in my experience you can build a clean PC without using a modular PSU, and I'd trade off modular cables for better quality all day long

Aesthetics, easier building, less wasted/needed space, and aftermarket cable options are all valid reasons for getting a semi or fully modular PSU. I'd personally never go with a non-modular PSU over even a semi-modular PSU, even if that ment spending $10-15 more on a power supply. Not having to deal with all the extra cables, as well as having generally better looking cables is definitely worth it to me.

 

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

but why? There are many other OEMs that make OKeish PSUs as well. Saying "buy X brand because Y and Z brand are no good" doesn't work

it does work with delta. 

 

because last time i checked Delta doesnt make ANY bad PSUs. pretty much only Dell uses them. 

52 minutes ago, TheKDub said:

get a 600-800W PSU

you only need a 550 watt Psu for the most powerful consumer hardware. that being 9900k/3950x + 2080ti/vega64

 

so going above it is pointless outside of extreme overclocking and workstation, 

 

[TheKDub]

5 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

it does work with delta. 

 

because last time i checked Delta doesnt make ANY bad PSUs. pretty much only Dell uses them. 

you only need a 550 watt Psu for the most powerful consumer hardware. that being 9900k/3950x + 2080ti/vega64

 

so going above it is pointless outside of extreme overclocking and workstation, 

 

It doesn't hurt to have extra headroom though. Less strain on the PSU = less heat and less noise.

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, TheKDub said:

It doesn't hurt to have extra headroom though. Less strain on the PSU = less heat and less noise.

If you get a good PSU that isnt an issue. 

 

Also its for peak loads. Meaning it will never actually run close to the limit. More closely to 50-60%. 

 

Hence a good 550 watt PSU is all you need. 

[KEIN NEIN]

On 7/14/2019 at 2:43 PM, TheKDub said:

Even in a case with good cable management, it's still nice to not have a dozen cables that you won't use sitcking out of the power supply wasting space. Not to mention most non-modualr power supplies tend to be fairly low end and have poorly bundled or unsleeved ketchup and mustard cables.

 

 

they just TEND to be, that's not to say all non-modular PSUs are crap there is the bitfenix formula which is better than most PSUs out there.

 

Corsair CX non M is even better internally than the semimodular version, and then there's the be quiet pure power 11 which is better than a lot of EVGA, seasonic, corsair and other branded units.

 

So, modular isn't necesarily good. Indeed going modular is electrically worse (not to the point where it really matters but it is)

 

So I think you misinterpreted my message, I never meant it's not nice to have, I'd go modular all day long if I can, specially at high wattages due to the cable clutter but what I actually said was:

Quote

it is NOT a MUST

and it is very often overvalued, the moment someone says "you have to buy a modular PSU", the momeny you imply it is MUST

On 7/14/2019 at 2:43 PM, TheKDub said:

 

Aesthetics, easier building, less wasted/needed space, and aftermarket cable options are all valid reasons for getting a semi or fully modular PSU. I'd personally never go with a non-modular PSU over even a semi-modular PSU, even if that ment spending $10-15 more on a power supply. Not having to deal with all the extra cables, as well as having generally better looking cables is definitely worth it to me.

 

Well you personally wouldn't and I do respect that, but we aren't sure about what the OP personally would or wouldn't, we can't help the OP by simply guessing.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 3:04 PM, GoldenLag said:

it does work with delta. 

 

I never commented otherwise, but you shouldn't say something is low-quality because it was not made by delta.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 3:04 PM, GoldenLag said:

it does work with delta. 

 

because last time i checked Delta doesnt make ANY bad PSUs. pretty much only Dell uses them. 

you only need a 550 watt Psu for the most powerful consumer hardware. that being 9900k/3950x + 2080ti/vega64

 

so going above it is pointless outside of extreme overclocking and workstation, 

 

It depends on the CPU/GPU and the power limit you set

 

I wouldn't buy a 550W for such a system, even if it where enough. Why?

 

Ofc it all comes down to where he lives but going 650W would signify spending an extra $5 or 10, going 750W would signify spending another $5 or 10

 

Is that too much of a expenditure for a PSU upgrade? I don't think so, specially in the specific case you pointed out, you are talking about $2000+ worth of hardware. 

 

And 550W PSUs (even good ones) usually don't come with dual PCIe cables. Neither do they come with dual EPS cables, in some cases not even the 650W version includes them. For instance, the corsair RM750i which is one of the best PSUs doesn't include a second EPS connector.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 3:10 PM, TheKDub said:

It doesn't hurt to have extra headroom though. Less strain on the PSU = less heat and less noise.

False, if you compare to high-end PSUs internally you would encounter that they use the very same parts except for some components on the primary, 

 

Long story short, you compare a 450W, 550W and 650W from the same manufacturer and model (Straight Power 11 for example) assuming IT'S THE SAME DESIGN (similar components and thus, same strain), SAME ENCLOSURE, SAME FAN (same heat and noice) so thermodynamics prove you wrong because if we loaded those three to 450W there wouldn't be too much (if any) of a difference

 

So long as the manufacturer decides to use the same platform (or design) that is completely false, as you will get the same PSU with a slightly modified primary side and higher OCP/OPP triggering point.

 

23 hours ago, GoldenLag said:

If you get a good PSU that isnt an issue. 

 

Also its for peak loads. Meaning it will never actually run close to the limit. More closely to 50-60%. 

 

Hence a good 550 watt PSU is all you need. 

Right

[KEIN NEIN]

I think this is going way too out of topic.

 

The answer on what PSU to buy is simpler:

 

- Find a PSU that is high-quality and has the right connectors/features for your build.

 

- Figure out how much wattage you need

 

- Compare price-to-performance and give it a shot, that's all.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, KEIN NEIN said:

I never commented otherwise, but you shouldn't say something is low-quality because it was not made by delta.

saves the bother of looking up reviews of an OEM unit........

2 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

It depends on the CPU/GPU and the power limit you set

 

I wouldn't buy a 550W for such a system, even if it where enough. Why?

because its enough, why spend more

3 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Ofc it all comes down to where he lives but going 650W would signify spending an extra $5 or 10, going 750W would signify spending another $5 or 10

 

Is that too much of a expenditure for a PSU upgrade? I don't think so, specially in the specific case you pointed out, you are talking about $2000+ worth of hardware

the thing is. why spend money one something completely unnecesary?

3 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

And 550W PSUs (even good ones) usually don't come with dual PCIe cables. Neither do they come with dual EPS cables, in some cases not even the 650W version includes them. For instance, the corsair RM750i which is one of the best PSUs doesn't include a second EPS connector.

like you ever need a second EPS connector. 

 

1 is enough for everything bar very high end HEDT and LN2 overclocking. 

 

[KEIN NEIN]

Just now, GoldenLag said:

saves the bother of looking up reviews of an OEM unit........

 

If you are only looking at OEM PSUs then yes

1 minute ago, GoldenLag said:

 

because its enough, why spend more

 

Because of having some extra room, extra connectors and better quality if the OEM upgrades the platform, but most importantly $5-10 doesn't mean anything in a super expensive build

3 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

 

the thing is. why spend money one something completely unnecesary?

 

 

Why are you so sure about more connectors being completely unnecesary? Nobody knows what the future will bring.

3 minutes ago, GoldenLag said:

saves the bother of looking up reviews of an OEM unit........

because its enough, why spend more

the thing is. why spend money one something completely unnecesary?

like you ever need a second EPS connector. 

 

1 is enough for everything bar very high end HEDT and LN2 overclocking. 

 

Like you said if the user ever decided to go HEDT or uses a PSU with thin wire gauge then it is not unnecesary.

 

You need to consider that you are recommending stuff to the OP, not to a computer junkie. He might as well do those crazy upgrades without even knowing that it can cause problems.

 

Also, two separate EPS cables mean less current going through each wire which in turn equals to less resistance reducing power losses.

 

But not only that, if you buy a multi-rail PSU the OCP is often set by cable so you can actually overload something like a bitfenix formula, whisper M, be quiet or anything with a low OCP triggering point (that includes OEM PSUs) if you draw too much current from a single connector.

 

And in general I strongly believe that, buying a 550W for such hypotethical build is downright ludicrous.

[GoldenLag]

1 minute ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Because of having some extra room, extra connectors and better quality if the OEM upgrades the platform, but most importantly $5-10 doesn't mean anything in a super expensive build

if you have a strict budget it does. 

 

and most PSUs do come with more than enough connectors to use for what is needed. 

 

5-10 can actually give you quite the mobo upgrade. 

2 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Why are you so sure about more connectors being completely unnecesary? Nobody knows what the future will bring.

we know it wont bring 300 watt CPU and GPUs, because those are meme machines. 

3 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Like you said if the user ever decided to go HEDT or uses a PSU with thin wire gauge then it is not unnecesary.

very high end HEDT. which would only really apply to skylake X. something you shouldnt get to begin with. 

 

also wire gauge is a spec thing. if it doesnt follow spec, then its not a good PSU.........

4 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

You need to consider that you are recommending stuff to the OP, not to a computer junkie. He might as well do those crazy upgrades without even knowing that it can cause problems.

if he is getting a 400 watt CPU. then i guess so. but note im stating Consumer configs. something that wont exceed the 550 watt barrier in peak load. 

5 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Also, two separate EPS cables mean less current going through each wire which in turn equals to less resistance reducing power losses.

you dont know how much a single EPS connector can handle............ nor how little of a difference that would make..........

 

a single minimum spec EPS connector is enough for literally any consumer CPU. you wont see it melt, EVER (unless it DOA or you did some cablemod cabling without realizing you picked the wrong cables)

7 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

But not only that, if you buy a multi-rail PSU the OCP is often set by cable so you can actually overload something like a bitfenix formula, whisper M, be quiet or anything with a low OCP triggering point (that includes OEM PSUs) if you draw too much current from a single connector.

connector? surely you mean the rails?

 

and no, that is only an issue on PSUs with way to sensetive OCP, like pre-fix focus PSUs. note im also using peak loads. something you wont reach during normal load. also, good PSUs can actually handle more wattage than they are specked for.

8 minutes ago, KEIN NEIN said:

And in general I strongly believe that, buying a 550W for such hypotethical build is downright ludicrous.

except there being no reason why a good 550w PSU cant do whatever a regular person can ask it to do?

 

 

that just sounds like you want to have overkill just to feel safe, even tho it doesnt matter. 

[KEIN NEIN]

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

if you have a strict budget it does. 

 

if you have $2000+ to spend then you can't have a strict budget because at that point you are looking for quality-parts or at least parts that will satisfy your needs, in that particular case having to stick to a strict mark is wasting your money because you are cutting-on functionality for no reason.

 

if you are spending less than $500 then it makes total sense to save 5 or 10 usd.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

 

and most PSUs do come with more than enough connectors to use for what is needed. 

 

you said it, MOST, not ALL OF THEM, that is my point, we can't take anything for granted

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

5-10 can actually give you quite the mobo upgrade. 

 

but how can you know a mobo upgrade is that the OP needs or wants?

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

 

we know it wont bring 300 watt CPU and GPUs, because those are meme machines. 

 

again, we are speaking to and end user, not to a system assemblier, he might upgrade to a 32 core, you CANNOT assume the user knows it all

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

very high end HEDT. which would only really apply to skylake X. something you shouldnt get to begin with. 

there DO exist reasons to use skylake X, what if he founds a deal on them? you never know, that's the whole point.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

 

also wire gauge is a spec thing. if it doesnt follow spec, then its not a good PSU.........

I know that well, but you stated you don't need dual EPS, there are scenarions in which you need them.

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

 

if he is getting a 400 watt CPU. then i guess so. but note im stating Consumer configs. something that wont exceed the 550 watt barrier in peak load. 

you dont know how much a single EPS connector can handle............ nor how little of a difference that would make..........

 

a single minimum spec EPS connector is enough for literally any consumer CPU. you wont see it melt, EVER (unless it DOA or you did some cablemod cabling without realizing you picked the wrong cables)

connector? surely you mean the rails?

 

and no, that is only an issue on PSUs with way to sensetive OCP, like pre-fix focus PSUs. note im also using peak loads. something you wont reach during normal load.

Once more, MULTI-RAIL PSUs, we don't care how much a single EPS can handle, I know it can do a lot of wattage, that is relevant. The bottleneck is determined by the weakest part of the circuit, in this case the OCP triggering point of the 12V rail that powers the CPU or GPU

 

Forget about LN2 overclockers as they all use single-rail PSUs, good 550W, 36A max on the CPU and 38A max on the GPU, a lot? yes, impossible to trigger? definitely not. Same goes for be quiet and other PSUs

 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/bitfenix-whisper-series-550w-psu,4805-6.html

 

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

good PSUs can actually handle more wattage than they are specked for.

 

So what? you should not operate a PSU beyond their maximum rated power output. It is because it lets you do so, DOESN'T MEANT you should attempt to force your PSU. 

On 7/15/2019 at 4:09 PM, GoldenLag said:

 

that just sounds like you want to have overkill just to feel safe, even tho it doesnt matter. 

I am not saying you are safe by just going overkill, once more, you don't get the point.

 

Good 450Ws and 550Ws usually cost almost as much as good 650W and 750W. Without readily-seen drawbacks, Why on earth would you go with the bare minimum wattage rating to save a few pennies? That's my point, it's that simple.

 

I think you are confusing two different use-cases. An OKeish 400-450W is perfect for a cheap build, even a 300W if you don't plan to go with old, low-current draw components.

 

But for an i9 9900K/3950X + 2080 ti build, what would you ever want to go low on your PSU? If you buy such a build there's no "stricted budget thing" there's no "I am never going to draw X watts or amps", it is a completely different league.

 

[GoldenLag]

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

in that particular case having to stick to a strict mark is wasting your money because you are cutting-on functionality for no reason.

you dont loose anything tho.........

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

if you have $2000+ to spend then you can't have a strict budget because at that point you are looking for quality-parts or at least parts that will satisfy your needs,

having 2k$ to spend doesnt mean you have extra money to spend. people often set ceilings. 

 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

you said it, MOST, not ALL OF THEM, that is my point, we can't take anything for granted

its why you recommend good PSUs......... if it lacks stuff for regular use, then it isnt a good PSU. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

but how can you know a mobo upgrade is that the OP needs or wants?

i dont know, but at least it gives something, unlike PSU upgrade over a cheap good one. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

again, we are speaking to and end user, not to a system assemblier, he might upgrade to a 32 core, you CANNOT assume the user knows it all

technically the 32 core is fine on a 550 watt PSU. and upgrading to top end HEDT that costs what the start build costs (assuming the start build is 2k$) isnt something people do. buying more than 550 watts make no sense....... all you have said is that you are uncomfy with running with a PSU that is perfectly adequate, but doesnt have 750w taped onto it. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

there DO exist reasons to use skylake X, what if he founds a deal on them? you never know, that's the whole point.

sort of, not really. and especially not for normal consumers. and it only applies to the Skylake X CPUs that cost way to much ad cant find deals on. also not something people do. people who go on the used market hunting for deals while picking up mobo and CPU usually know a thing or two. and arent the people who just bough their shiny new gaming rig. you are grasping at reasons that dont make sense, even then. a good PSU doesnt care if you run too much on it. all it will do is shut down. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Once more, MULTI-RAIL PSUs, we don't care how much a single EPS can handle, I know it can do a lot of wattage, that is relevant. The bottleneck is determined by the weakest part of the circuit, in this case the OCP triggering point of the 12V rail that powers the CPU or GPU

and once again a good 550 watt PSU can power the components comfortably with multirails. if it couldnt, then again it wouldnt be a good PSU. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

36A max on the CPU and 38A max on the GPU, a lot? yes, impossible to trigger? definitely not. Same goes for be quiet and other PSUs

for consumer hardware. its actually not possible. 

there are offocurse times where faulty PSU design has lead to oversensetive OCP, like the Seasonic Focus line. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

So what? you should not operate a PSU beyond their maximum rated power output. It is because it lets you do so, DOESN'T MEANT you should attempt to force your PSU. 

indeed. and you wont exceed it............

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

Good 450Ws and 550Ws usually cost almost as much as good 650W and 750W.

actually the usually cost quite a bit extra. going from a cx550 to something like a TXM 750 usually cost quite a bit. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

I am not saying you are safe by just going overkill, once more, you don't get the point.

i do get it, i just think you are being dumb to recommend people to buy more than they need for no reason other than having a 750watt sticker to make you feel safe. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

even a 300W if you don't plan to go with old, low-current draw components.

well, if you can find a good 300w that is. its all about the PSU being good, not the wattage. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

I think you are confusing two different use-cases. An OKeish 400-450W is perfect for a cheap build

"Ish" is not acceptable for PSUs, you allways go for good ones. i think you are missunderstanding what PSUs one should use. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

But for an i9 9900K/3950X + 2080 ti build, what would you ever want to go low on your PSU?

550 watt is fine. 650 if you have the leftovers that you cant spend elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, KEIN NEIN said:

If you buy such a build there's no "stricted budget thing" there's no "I am never going to draw X watts or amps", it is a completely different league.

except you arent going to overdraw. also, clearly you havent been in the build planning sections of forums. there is very much a thing called a strict budget.