Get your goods while you can in the U.S. Chinese tariffs Jump to 25%

[cj09beira]

3 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

The point is to generate money to the Government - so you keep the money you earn every 1 week or 2 weeks you receive a paycheck rather than 27-30% of that income going directly to the Feds, States, and Social Security.

 

Since you aren't keeping that money, this go around with Tariffs - no only do you lose out on 30% of your income YOU earned, but now the goods you rely on are going to be even more expensive.

 

Prior to 1913, when the Federal Reserve was signed into law by Woodrow Wilson (who Id gladly go back in time and remove from existence) Tariffs supported your Government.  We had an army, roads, infrastructure - the boom of industry in the NE was amazing.  And kept our own incomes.

 

History.

well from 1914 on i know thats WWI so hard to compare to that time, though i am not versed enough in Us history to know what was going on in 1900-1910s to know how comparable this times are to our own

[Tristerin]

1 minute ago, cj09beira said:

well from 1914 on i know thats WWI so hard to compare to that time, though i am not versed enough in Us history to know what was going on in 1900-1910s to know how comparable this times are to our own

We went to War because war makes money for the Federal Reserve which is a Corporation and not an Entity of the U.S. Federal Government at all.

 

Its aptly named to disguise itself, to the sheeple masses.

[cj09beira]

1 minute ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Should have banned China from trade with the USA ages ago, but a bunch of the Elites wanted to cripple US Infrastructure so everything got shipped to China. (It was very intentional, but never for the real reasons they said.)

 

China had the option to normalize smoothly. They were told, but they've chosen not to. Gets really fun if they go after the currencies. 

 

Just as a matter of reality, all Food Stuffs, Metals and Oil are denominated in US Dollars. Which means all contracts are rendered with them. China actually keeps their currency a lot stronger than it would naturally be, which exports deflation and keeps the food riots away. An "ungentle" normalization will double the cost of living in China, in local currency, overnight.  China made out great for a while via bribery and anti-American interests working together. They really should have played this all a lot cooler.

ya the here in portugal for example we were quite invested in manufacturing clothing shoes, ceramics that sort of thing, but the Eu wanted to have the money from china (the richer countries would mostly export machinery to china) in the end we got f*** hard, along with spain, and greece 

[cj09beira]

4 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

We went to War because war makes money for the Federal Reserve which is a Corporation and not an Entity of the U.S. Federal Government at all.

 

Its aptly named to disguise itself, to the sheeple masses.

sure but i am asking about the 1900s-1913 as that is the era in which you said the government was being sustained only from tariffs, i am wanted to know what that time was like

[ravenshrike]

8 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

Im betting your young, Ill leave it at that.

You'd bet wrong. The effects upon the US were they to call that particular token would be a pretty nasty amount of short term inflation on our part and everybody else would IMMEDIATELY stop taking Chinese loans and start trying to pay off what they have extant. Combined with the fact the US would no longer be buying anything Chinese from the resulting hue and cry and the effects on China would be much worse. Moreover the knock on effects from the abrupt US inflation would send most other markets tumbling as they would be unable to properly react to changing conditions. So yeah, if China wanted to cause a massive global market upheaval, they could call the loans. They'd be fucking morons to do so, but they could.

[Taf the Ghost]

3 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

ya the here in portugal for example we were quite invested in manufacturing clothing shoes, ceramics that sort of thing, but the Eu wanted to have the money from china (the richer countries would mostly export machinery to china) in the end we got f*** hard, along with spain, and greece 

Yup. Happened within the interior of the USA as well. It was a corrupt bargain by the elites of multiple countries to sell out their own people. There's a reason they love "social welfare" systems. If you control the food supply of enough of a country, you will find they'll be very dependent upon the government. In societies with voting power, it's a feedback loop to buy Power.

 

The only reason most modern countries aren't "competitive" in a lot of manufacturing is currency exchange and intentionally removed barriers. No one can compete when everyone else doesn't have to follow *any* rules. Tariffs, like fences, make good neighbors.

[poochyena]

32 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

And since they have the largest population, and military in the world right now

what

[Tristerin]

Just now, poochyena said:

what

Google.

[poochyena]

Just now, Tristerin said:

Google.

[Tristerin]

6 minutes ago, ravenshrike said:

You'd bet wrong. The effects upon the US were they to call that particular token would be a pretty nasty amount of short term inflation on our part and everybody else would IMMEDIATELY stop taking Chinese loans and start trying to pay off what they have extant. Combined with the fact the US would no longer be buying anything Chinese from the resulting hue and cry and the effects on China would be much worse. Moreover the knock on effects from the abrupt US inflation would send most other markets tumbling as they would be unable to properly react to changing conditions. So yeah, if China wanted to cause a massive global market upheaval, they could call the loans. They'd be fucking morons to do so, but they could.

So you do know that Gold is what Backs the US dollar, and that they don't want the US Dollar (once the loan is recalled its toilet paper), but Gold which would prop the Renminbi up.  Awesome, not sure why you disagreed about the Gold statement.

[Tristerin]

Just now, poochyena said:

So you are looking up SPENDING

 

I am talking about STANDING ARMY

 

So yeah theres that - I never mentioned what the US spends on military.

[poochyena]

1 minute ago, Tristerin said:

I am talking about STANDING ARMY

This isn't the 1500s, number of human bodies you have in your army means literally nothing.

[Tristerin]

Just now, poochyena said:

This isn't the 1500s, number of human bodies you have in your army means literally nothing.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

Stop approaching me on this subject, you have literally not read a thing Ive typed and assumed a ton - and this is the last thing you can say to stand by those statements?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Dylanc1500]

2 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

So you are looking up SPENDING

 

I am talking about STANDING ARMY

 

So yeah theres that - I never mentioned what the US spends on military.

Now to find a way to militarize McDonald's and Walmart....

[Tristerin]

1 minute ago, Dylanc1500 said:

Now to find a way to militarize McDonald's and Walmart....

Walmart - one of the largest (by $$$) Countrie....I mean Corporations in the world! lol

[thorhammerz]

1 hour ago, Delicieuxz said:

Putting aside that the US doesn't really have a military advantage over China, to which countries would those hypothetical blocked sea lanes be delivering goods, and who owns those sea lanes?

1. Aircraft carriers work wonders. Especially when a single American carrier strike force wields more firepower than any other national navy on the planet (pretty big difference between what a traditional jump  vs a super carrier can bring to the table).

 

There's a reason why every other vessel in a strike force is designed & integrated to protect said carrier itself. If you want to challenge the American navy, you need to find a way to push them (at least) 1000 miles away from whatever interest you're protecting (or that they're targeting), and a bunch of missiles is not exactly the best way to go about it (especially when the other side is still ahead in that field - those laser systems the Americans are developing and publicly displaying with an emphasis on anti-missile combat? Why do you think that is?)

 

2. Freedom of Navigation was created, and is enforced in large part by, the Americans. Should the Americans decide to either withdraw or revoke it, there is jack squat anyone else can do about it - the Japanese and the British (the only 2 other naval powers even worth mentioning) not only know very well what it means to get on the bad side of the Americans (think WW2 + Suez Crises), they are also dependent on American economic largess to remain functional nation-states going into the future (guess where most of the customers buying Japanese products and cars are living? Guess which country the UK is actively courting to avoid a hard-depression after the incoming hard-Brexit?).

 

Quote

Why would the countries, like Russia, India, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc, who own parts of the ocean that are valuable to shipping, allow the US to militarily blockade them? And how would the US blockade the open ocean?

Do you know how naval blockades work (for Brevity's sake we'll conveniently ignore the fact that half the countries you have listed have no viable naval projection power whatsoever)? You don't physically put ships to stop other ships (this isn't 500 B.C.) - you place enough ordinance with enough range to reach a shipping route to deny any and all civilian ships, and enough ordinance to counter whatever ordinance the enemy actor can bring against you. There aren't a whole lot of shipping lanes, and there are even fewer choke-points (hello Singapore) those all go through. 

 

If a bunch of Somalian pirates can hijack oil tankers with relative ease, what on earth makes you think a dedicated combat force would have trouble interdicting or outright destroying cargo ships?

 

Quote

China is the country with the most exports in the world. The US is China's biggest trading partner, but that goes both ways. And China exports about as much to its next 2 biggest export partners as it does to the US.

A nation dependent on exports is precisely the type of nation that is dependent on global trade to maintain economic solvency - no trade, no jobs. The Chinese Communist Party (communist in name only, mind you) is still in power because their public raison d'etre to power is "you let us rule, we'll give you economic prosperity and growth"; take away their largest source of income and you'll have mass riots from several dozen million unemployed (and a lot of them unmarried) men. Take away global sea lane access and you'll have mass starvation in the coastal cities and the inability to even keep the lights on (read: oil).

Quote

Also, what makes a country's economics a house of cards?

Because their entire economic system is designed to encourage employment, not profit. You start a business in North America because you (and the government, to tax you) want to make money. You start a business in China and your value to the government is dependent on you keeping others employed. Vastly different ideologies and economic models. 

 

And said economic system is currently running on (government funded) debt to maintain the status quo described in the previous paragraph - the government (through state owned agencies and banks) is the lender and borrower, and the amount unpaid debt (to themselves, ironically) would have triggered financial dissolution (for the bank and business) anywhere else in the world (with the possible exception of Italy, considering how mangled and default-ridden their own banking / financial system is).

 

The local wealthy (the ones with eyes, at least) move their money out (usually buying up lots of property and jacking up housing prices to the stratosphere in the well known cities) for a reason, and it's not a pretty one.

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

I'm pretty sure that's not a possibility.

Cut off the strait of Malacca to Chinese shipping and you've done most of the work .

[Tristerin]

3 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

-snip-

So glad to see an informed post.

[Tristerin]

9 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

 the Japanese and the British (the only 2 other naval powers even worth mentioning) not only know very well what it means to get on the bad side of the Americans (think WW2 + Suez Crises)

Love it!  Japan is our vassal, signed the Instrument of Surrender.

 

Which states "We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated"

 

They could go against their own signed Instrument of Surrender, but they wont.  Or at least China would have to propel them that direction I would think.

[thorhammerz]

10 minutes ago, Tristerin said:

Love it!  Japan is our vassal, signed the Instrument of Surrender.

 

Which states "We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated"

 

They could go against their own signed Instrument of Surrender, but they wont.  Or at least China would have to propel them that direction I would think.

There is no reason to do so - or rather, any path forwards that pits the Japanese vs. the Americans ends up exactly the way it did 70 years ago - the Japanese gets rolled back to their home islands (whether that's economically or militarily), and they'd be strung with the equivalent of BDSM toys that'll make the instruments of compliance that Lighthizer forced on them 3 decades ago look tame.

 

Much better (and easier) for the Japanese to play with the Americans who have been (and can continue to, at the right price) give everything they could ever want - physical, energy, food security, and access to the only consumer market of self-sustaining (for now) relevance to boot (aka themselves).

[COTG]

45 minutes ago, Taf the Ghost said:

Should have banned China from trade with the USA ages ago, but a bunch of the Elites wanted to cripple US Infrastructure so everything got shipped to China. (It was very intentional, but never for the real reasons they said.)

 

China had the option to normalize smoothly. They were told, but they've chosen not to. Gets really fun if they go after the currencies. 

 

Just as a matter of reality, all Food Stuffs, Metals and Oil are denominated in US Dollars. Which means all contracts are rendered with them. China actually keeps their currency a lot stronger than it would naturally be, which exports deflation and keeps the food riots away. An "ungentle" normalization will double the cost of living in China, in local currency, overnight.  China made out great for a while via bribery and anti-American interests working together. They really should have played this all a lot cooler.

oof american's sure are delusional 

[Tristerin]

Just now, thorhammerz said:

There is no reason to do so - or rather, any path forwards that pits the Japanese vs. the Americans ends up exactly the way it did 70 years ago - the Japanese gets rolled back to their home islands (whether that's economically or militarily), and they'd be strung with the equivalent of BDSM toys that'll make the instruments of compliance that Lighthizer forced on them 3 decades ago look tame.

 

Much better (and easier) for the Japanese to play with the Americans who have been (and can continue to can continue to, at the right price) give everything they could ever want - physical, energy, food security, and access to the only consumer market of self-sustaining (for now) relevance to boot (aka themselves).

You are just a breathe of fresh air for me on this topic on this forum.  Someone who is versed in history, and is less apt to opinion in their statements (beyond the ones you can correlate through ladder logic).

 

Agree with your statements completely, was backing them up with some more information to the less informed

 

 

[Taf the Ghost]

1 minute ago, COTG said:

oof american's sure are delusional 

Hard power is hard power.  We also control the Blue Water. Reality is reality. Also, China's economy is built on more Debt than most of the rest of the world combined. Trump offered that they normalize calmly, but it looks very much like it'll be less pleasant for everyone.

[thorhammerz]

Just now, Taf the Ghost said:

Hard power is hard power.  We also control the Blue Water.

An understatement, if anything .

Just now, Taf the Ghost said:

Reality is reality. Also, China's economy is built on more Debt than most of the rest of the world combined. Trump offered that they normalize calmly, but it looks very much like it'll be less pleasant for everyone.

Can hardly blame them for trying to back-and-forth in a lose-lose situation. All options will likely end in regime change, and most options will likely end up in economic insolvency / civil war and possible famine / reversion to third-world-country status / the return  of economic imperialism.

[Taf the Ghost]

2 minutes ago, thorhammerz said:

An understatement, if anything .

Can hardly blame them for trying to back-and-forth in a lose-lose situation. All options will likely end in regime change, and most options will likely end up in economic insolvency / civil war and possible famine / reversion to third-world-country status / the return  of economic imperialism.

China doesn't really do a "win-win" type of deal. They have, at the government level, generally always taken a Winner-Take-All view. The Trump Administration's perspective is normalization not domination. This still might be as much optics & show, with these being the deals made a while ago, but the reality of the situational differences is stark. China never should have taken certain deals. 

[Tellos]

@Tristerin actually most US debt is held by US citizens we own more of china's debt. They aint doing shit. Also china has been spending liek us in some places creating problems. I still hate thess tariffs but the debt threat is a joke in so far as china goes.