Coffee Lake i7-8700k z170/z270 Compatibility

[arnavvr]

6 hours ago, MageTank said:

I don't know if my word means anything, but let's say I too know of what he speaks of, and I can say this:

The chipset itself, Z270, supports Coffeelake. The current sockets on the other hand, do not. The internal pin configuration on every known board currently in use, is incompatible with Coffeelake due to how the power delivery of those pins were designed to accommodate the new cores, along with some minor tweaks to the memory subsystem to improve official DDR4 compatibility up to 2666mhz.

 

It is far easier to say you need a Z370 board, because it is highly unlikely that we will see current Z270 boards get an updated revision with a proper pin configuration to support CFL. That will only bring more confusion (similar to Z87/Z97 DC support being hit or miss depending on boards). Do I agree with Intel's reasoning behind this? Not at all, and it only further invalidates CFL as a potential platform option for most people. Why would anyone in their right mind, upgrade from Kaby to Coffeelake, requiring an entirely new platform, when they can just spend that money and upgrade to X299 instead, and have a future upgrade path that isn't limited to 6 cores at max? It just makes zero sense to me.

 

Had Coffeelake supported the current boards in circulation (even if it came at a clock speed disadvantage), at the very least, people could get more cores at the cost of clocks, without having to buy an entirely new motherboard. Instead, we now have this odd in-between platform that is essentially exactly the same as Kaby as far as IPC and features goes, but offers 2 more cores, stuffed in between yet another architecture that is similar to Kaby in terms of IPC (minus the cache changes) but offers far more cores. This is the most obfuscated product stack that I have ever personally seen.

Could you see someone upgrading from a 7700K to a 7800X? If in fact, Coffee Lake ends up having the same IPC, the 7800X will end up being a very similar chip to the 8700K.

[MageTank]

Just now, arnavvr said:

Could you see someone upgrading from a 7700K to a 7800X? If in fact, Coffee Lake ends up having the same IPC, the 7800X will end up being a very similar chip to the 8700K.

Yes, only because X299 offers a stronger upgrade path. More PCIe lanes, twice the memory channels/capacity, and up to 18 cores/36 threads if you feel the need to upgrade in the future. Coffeelake is still the consumer platform, and it took Intel this long to add 6 cores to that lineup. Meaning, cannonlake is likely going to cap at 6 cores as well on that platform, and if core-count is something you upgraded for, X299 offers the better solution.

 

It's why I question the decision to design the processor around a new platform, when Z270 is still very young (even relative to Z170). Cannonlake is still delayed until late 2018 as well, so it's not like they couldn't have rode out Z170/270 a little longer while prepping a new platform and chipset for a real architectural difference. 

[Killer007]

16 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Huh? Where is the Aug/September date coming from? That's for the bigger Skylake-X chips. As far as I am aware, CFL was slated for Q4 2017/Q1 of 2018. Meaning, Oct at earliest, March 2018 at latest. 

 

The hardest part about conveying information I am not supposed to know, is doing it in a way that won't get somebody in trouble. All I can say is, it won't work, and that the only way for it to be proven, is to wait until it launches so that you can see that it doesn't. As for release dates, that has pretty much always been on the roadmaps (aside from delays) and all other recent leaks also show a similar Q4 2017/ Q1 2018 date. 

Where is Aug/September coming from? Here. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by Killer007

[MageTank]

Just now, Killer007 said:

Where is Auf/September coming from? Here. 

And where does this come from? A dated source would be nice. These CPU's tend to get delayed often. Not only that, but that source is confusing. I see two different listings for Coffee Lake -S. Both have the exact same information listed. 

[arnavvr]

7 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Yes, only because X299 offers a stronger upgrade path. More PCIe lanes, twice the memory channels/capacity, and up to 18 cores/36 threads if you feel the need to upgrade in the future. Coffeelake is still the consumer platform, and it took Intel this long to add 6 cores to that lineup. Meaning, cannonlake is likely going to cap at 6 cores as well on that platform, and if core-count is something you upgraded for, X299 offers the better solution.

 

It's why I question the decision to design the processor around a new platform, when Z270 is still very young (even relative to Z170). Cannonlake is still delayed until late 2018 as well, so it's not like they couldn't have rode out Z170/270 a little longer while prepping a new platform and chipset for a real architectural difference. 

What makes me think that they will still allow 1151 support is because the last mainstream socket was used for three generations of chips (Haswell, Devils Canyon, Broadwell) 

 

On the topic of upgrade path, I do think that X299 is a very interesting option, compared with X99 that maxed out with 10 cores. Someone could easily run the same motherboard for ten years.

[MageTank]

Just now, arnavvr said:

What makes me think that they will still allow 1151 support is because the last mainstream socket was used for three generations of chips (Haswell, Devils Canyon, Broadwell) 

That is an interesting subject to bring up. Z87 allowed for Haswell, and (depending on UEFI/Microcode support) allowed for DC to work on Z87. However, despite being the exact same socket size, Z87 did not allow Broadwell support. Broadwell had a different pinout requirement for Iris Pro graphics, that only Z97 had. So while Z87 supported 2 chipsets, Z97 was the only one that supported all 3. I was hoping to see that trend continue with Z270, but it's sadly not the case.

 

The pinout was changed with these new 6 core SKU's for the sake of better power delivery. Unless through some miracle, the board partners enable a way through microcode to make these CPU's work (albeit, with lower power or disabled cores), they are "not supported" in the official sense.

[Killer007]

9 minutes ago, MageTank said:

And where does this come from? A dated source would be nice. These CPU's tend to get delayed often. Not only that, but that source is confusing. I see two different listings for Coffee Lake -S. Both have the exact same information listed. 

 

It's a picture taken at Intel Partner Seminar presentation so despite the author of the picture is unknown, the primary source should be Intel itself.

 

You're kind of right, it is confusing. However it somehow coresponds to what we know - only higher-end processors will be launched in the late summer (the K ones) - with, so far it seems, Z370 chipset which might be just a rebranded Z270 for purpose of Coffee Lake - with other models coming out with real 300 chipset in Q1 2018.

 

 - reason to edit: text formatting

[arnavvr]

1 minute ago, MageTank said:

That is an interesting subject to bring up. Z87 allowed for Haswell, and (depending on UEFI/Microcode support) allowed for DC to work on Z87. However, despite being the exact same socket size, Z87 did not allow Broadwell support. Broadwell had a different pinout requirement for Iris Pro graphics, that only Z97 had. So while Z87 supported 2 chipsets, Z97 was the only one that supported all 3. I was hoping to see that trend continue with Z270, but it's sadly not the case.

 

The pinout was changed with these new 6 core SKU's for the sake of better power delivery. Unless through some miracle, the board partners enable a way through microcode to make these CPU's work (albeit, with lower power or disabled cores), they are "not supported" in the official sense.

But could one upgrade their motherboard to a Z370 one and keep their Kaby Lake or Skylake CPUs? I've wanted a board upgrade but I'm waiting on the new stuff.

[MageTank]

1 minute ago, Killer007 said:

It's a picture taken at Intel Partner Seminar presentation so despite the author of the picture is unknown, the primary source should be Intel itself.

You're kind of right, it is confusing. However it somehow coresponds to what we know - only higher-end processors will be launched in the late summer (the K ones) - with, so far it seems, Z370 chipset which might be just a rebranded Z270 for purpose of Coffee Lake - with other models coming out with real 300 chipset in Q1 2018.

The chipsets themselves (aside from native USB and wifi changes) are nearly identical. As far as we know, they could have altered the DMI string on purpose to make it look like Z270, to avoid giving away Z370's existence. Why they would do that, is beyond me, but still possible.

 

Z270, as a chipset, is perfectly capable of housing Coffee Lake. It's the socket itself that cannot support it.

1 minute ago, arnavvr said:

But could one upgrade their motherboard to a Z370 one and keep their Kaby Lake or Skylake CPUs? I've wanted a board upgrade but I'm waiting on the new stuff.

I have no idea. I asked that question myself, and have not gotten an answer. It's likely going to remain unknown at this point until it actually launches. If it is able to retain backwards compatibility, it might help it's launch slightly. It would mean people can invest in a board and solid platform, while buying used CPU's to save money and still get a decent upgrade path. 

[arnavvr]

Just now, MageTank said:

The chipsets themselves (aside from native USB and wifi changes) are nearly identical. As far as we know, they could have altered the DMI string on purpose to make it look like Z270, to avoid giving away Z370's existence. Why they would do that, is beyond me, but still possible.

 

Z270, as a chipset, is perfectly capable of housing Coffee Lake. It's the socket itself that cannot support it.

I have no idea. I asked that question myself, and have not gotten an answer. It's likely going to remain unknown at this point until it actually launches. If it is able to retain backwards compatibility, it might help it's launch slightly. It would mean people can invest in a board and solid platform, while buying used CPU's to save money and still get a decent upgrade path. 

Yeah, I just don't expect Coffee Lake to be any faster than Kaby Lake at gaming. It's not going to clock as high, so it might even be worse. I'm running ITX, so I only have two options at the moment, and both have their drawbacks.

[MageTank]

Just now, arnavvr said:

Yeah, I just don't expect Coffee Lake to be any faster than Kaby Lake at gaming. It's not going to clock as high, so it might even be worse. I'm running ITX, so I only have two options at the moment, and both have their drawbacks.

Well, there won't be an IPC boost, and considering how physics works, you are likely gonna have to compromise slightly on clock speeds compared to the 7700k due to the additional heat from the additional cores. It probably won't be better for most games, but games that do leverage additional cores might see an uplift. 

 

Interestingly enough, the upgrade from 2400mhz to 2666mhz "official" memory support, might imply a stronger IMC. If that is the case, you might see a performance boost from that in titles that are I/O bound by the CPU side of things. Still, that 4.7ghz single-core clock boost should give you some hope as to how high these things clock. It's probably not outside of the realm of possibilities to see these things running at 5ghz on all threads assuming they are kept cool enough, and you are not throwing unrealistic loads (Linpack MKL) at them. 

 

https://hardforum.com/threads/coffee-lake-lga-1151-6c-12t-launching-in-august-several-k-models-planned.1930226/page-16#post-1043127762

[arnavvr]

Just now, MageTank said:

Well, there won't be an IPC boost, and considering how physics works, you are likely gonna have to compromise slightly on clock speeds compared to the 7700k due to the additional heat from the additional cores. It probably won't be better for most games, but games that do leverage additional cores might see an uplift. 

 

Interestingly enough, the upgrade from 2400mhz to 2666mhz "official" memory support, might imply a stronger IMC. If that is the case, you might see a performance boost from that in titles that are I/O bound by the CPU side of things. Still, that 4.7ghz single-core clock boost should give you some hope as to how high these things clock. It's probably not outside of the realm of possibilities to see these things running at 5ghz on all threads assuming they are kept cool enough, and you are not throwing unrealistic loads (Linpack MKL) at them. 

 

https://hardforum.com/threads/coffee-lake-lga-1151-6c-12t-launching-in-august-several-k-models-planned.1930226/page-16#post-1043127762

Yeah I don't see the 7800X really being a smart buy if this is true.

[Simon771]

12 hours ago, shiggy said:

The X299 will not support the Coffee Lake processor? I assume because it's the micro-architecture and the nano-meter differences. 

You won't be able to put Coffe Lake PCU on X299 motherboard ... that's for sure  

About 1151 socket and coffe lake, it could be compatibile with Z170 and Z270, but I would still buy Z370 anyway.

 

Also I'm not sure if it would be smart from Intel to release Coffe Lake just yet. Q2 2018 would be my bet for Coffe Lake.

[sanfilippo12]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but y'all seem knowledgable about Coffee Lake (or as knowledgeable as one can be at this time).

 

I'm currently looking to build my first Gaming PC. It's a budget build at about $700.

So I don't intend on overclocking at all.

I'm currently looking at the i5 7500.

Should I wait for the i5 8500?

[ARikozuM]

2 minutes ago, sanfilippo12 said:

I'm currently looking at the i5 7500.

Should I wait for the i5 8500?

I'd go with a R5-1600 instead. 

[Guest]

On 2017-7-27 at 4:48 AM, EOZ said:

Yes but socket is the same ? Any possibility ?

They'll probably have a new socket. Based on previous socket timelines, we're almost due for a new one.

[sanfilippo12]

Just now, ARikozuM said:

I'd go with a R5-1600 instead. 

I've been advised for and against Ryzen by several people recently.

I'm quite familiar with Intel, and know very little about AMD.

The argument against it I heard was that Ryzen is a First Gen CPU.

Also, I'm interested in using Intel Optane (which I know only works with Intel CPU's).

The argument for it is obvious, I've seen the benchmarks.

So no one has managed to persuade me in either direction and I'm kind of just sitting on the fence.

So is Ryzen really worth it? Is it good for the future?

And if I do stick with Intel, is it better to wait for Coffee Lake?

 

(Sorry if any of this seems obvious or dumb. I've been doing a lot of research over the past two months on PC building, but I'm still very new to it and a little confused about the AMD vs. Intel debate).

 

Thanks.

[ARikozuM]

1 hour ago, sanfilippo12 said:

I've been advised for and against Ryzen by several people recently.

I'm quite familiar with Intel, and know very little about AMD.

The argument against it I heard was that Ryzen is a First Gen CPU.

Also, I'm interested in using Intel Optane (which I know only works with Intel CPU's).

The argument for it is obvious, I've seen the benchmarks.

So no one has managed to persuade me in either direction and I'm kind of just sitting on the fence.

So is Ryzen really worth it? Is it good for the future?

And if I do stick with Intel, is it better to wait for Coffee Lake?

Intel should have their CFL chips in the next quarters, but for an upgrade right now, go with Ryzen 5. You can get faster RAM, which should be done regardless if the board supports it, and you'll have more cores to work with. 

 

I would go with an i5-7600K or R5-1600. Either way, you should get faster RAM to ensure that you're less affected by CPU-bound scenarios. But if your budget is limiting you to a i5-7500, I would go Ryzen as I only see value in the i5-K series and up. 

 

Waiting for CFL would be prudent, but unnecessary if you need a build this moment. Hopefully, Intel prices things accordingly, but you shouldn't regret either choice once CFL arrives if you do go for Ryzen. 

 

Note: Be aware of some Ryzen issues with rank. You'll generally be limited to 16GB as 2x8GB sticks (but most games don't come close to using half of that) and 3000-3200MHz is the sweet spot for RAM pricing. All Ryzen CPU's come with a cooler aside from the X variants and can be overclocked for more performance. Overclocking is easy and takes about one day to get stable unless you're trying to go crazy. 

[Rmlk2ei]

4 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

Waiting for CFL would be prudent, but unnecessary if you need a build this moment. Hopefully, Intel prices things accordingly, but you shouldn't regret either choice once CFL arrives if you do go for Ryzen. 

Currently waiting for CFL to come out due to the probable price drops in Kaby Lake. But I do have quite the budget to upgrade. So would you say after CFL comes out buying a Kaby lake is more worth than going straight to CFL? (p.s upgrading from a i5-2400). 

[sanfilippo12]

8 hours ago, ARikozuM said:

Intel should have their CFL chips in the next quarters, but for an upgrade right now, go with Ryzen 5. You can get faster RAM, which should be done regardless if the board supports it, and you'll have more cores to work with. 

 

I would go with an i5-7600K or R5-1600. Either way, you should get faster RAM to ensure that you're less affected by CPU-bound scenarios. But if your budget is limiting you to a i5-7500, I would go Ryzen as I only see value in the i5-K series and up. 

 

Waiting for CFL would be prudent, but unnecessary if you need a build this moment. Hopefully, Intel prices things accordingly, but you shouldn't regret either choice once CFL arrives if you do go for Ryzen. 

 

Note: Be aware of some Ryzen issues with rank. You'll generally be limited to 16GB as 2x8GB sticks (but most games don't come close to using half of that) and 3000-3200MHz is the sweet spot for RAM pricing. All Ryzen CPU's come with a cooler aside from the X variants and can be overclocked for more performance. Overclocking is easy and takes about one day to get stable unless you're trying to go crazy. 

Thank you very much for your reply.

I am on quite a budget, as I do not have the money yet and am budgeting how much I need to save.  I will probably not be building until maybe October or November (I'm just trying to get everything figured out early to make purchasing easier later), so I will see if Coffee Lake is out then, and reassess the situation keeping in mind what you said. 

Thanks!

[ImNotThere]

On 7/26/2017 at 9:48 PM, EOZ said:

Yes but socket is the same ? Any possibility ?

possibly lga 1151 v2 or some crap, probably not compatible

[ARikozuM]

8 hours ago, SlayerL0rd said:

Currently waiting for CFL to come out due to the probable price drops in Kaby Lake. But I do have quite the budget to upgrade. So would you say after CFL comes out buying a Kaby lake is more worth than going straight to CFL? (p.s upgrading from a i5-2400). 

Depends on the performance of CFL. Prices for older chips don't usually drop for either team, so you'll have to draw your choice from performance over cost or performance over overall build. 

 

Since you have an i5-2400, I'd look into the i7-2600 which should last you another two years since the cost of the upgrade is only about $240 versus $600 for a whole new platform. 

[EOZ]

Latest news from wccftech.

 

1. i7-8700k 6C/12T 4.3GHz (4.7GHz single core)

2. The chip will be compatible with the LGA 1151 socket and rumors are that board makers will extend support of Coffee Lake onto 200-series and even 100-series platforms.

3. The Intel Coffee Lake 8th generation Core processors are expected to launch around Gamescom in the month of August which is next month.

 

If it's true it will be beast in real world applications.

 

[chris cooper]

http://wccftech.com/intel-coffee-lake-core-i7-8700k-core-i5-8600k-6-core-cpu-leak/

 

Is this a pipedream?  Will the 270 chipset support this new processor, like 170-270.  According to this its the same socket?

 

Is it going to be as simple as a bios update?

 

 

[Jaxxy]

https://mobile.twitter.com/ASRockInfo/status/891872117972545537

 

AsRock says no.