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alpenwasser

APOLLO (2 CPU LGA1366 Server | InWin PP689 | 24 Disks Capacity) - by alpenwasser [COMPL. 2014-MAY-10]

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Im surprised that Noctua include a fan that they target specifically at airflow with a CPU heatsink.

It might have to do with them not actually having a highly specialized 92 mm

heat sink fan. The successor to my cooler comes with two fans instead of one,

which might have something to do with this (plus it's the PWM version).

However, the text from their website for the Fan (NF-B9) seems to me like they

market it for pretty much any situation requiring a silent 92 mm fan:

The NF-B9's highly-optimised blade design achieves an exceptional level of airflow and static pressure that most other fans can only reach at much higher speeds. Bevelled blade tips, Vortex-Control Notches as well as Noctua's SCD drive system and premium-grade SSO-Bearing ensure outstanding quietness and long-term stability.

(source)

It's actually a pretty good fan as far as I can tell. It would certainly be enough

for my needs with those low-power Xeons, but I want to try the San Aces due to their

PWM capability (and because I just think they're cool :D ).


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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Posted · Original PosterOP

What do those San Aces sound like at full speed?

Loud, but not as loud as I would have expected them to. I'll see if I can make a vid

when the build is done, I haven't been able to find anything representative of them

so far.


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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Loud, but not as loud as I would have expected them to. I'll see if I can make a vid

when the build is done, I haven't been able to find anything representative of them

so far.

So, not Delta or Thermaltake Polo 2 fan loud?


Laptop: Latitude E4310 w/ i5 580M, 4GB RAM, 120GB 840 EVO, and Intel 7260 wireless card + Windows 7 Professional x64

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Posted · Original PosterOP

So, not Delta or Thermaltake Polo 2 fan loud?

TBH I'm not quite sure as I don't have any other high speed fans for comparison,

and judging from youtube vids doesn't really seem like a reliable method.

I have googled around a bit more and it seems that my fan is very similar to this

one: 9G0912G101

Both have a maximum current rating of 1.1 A, and their maximum rpm is similar as

well (4,800 on mine vs 5,000 on the one provided). They are also very similar in

weight, I've put mine on a kitchen scale and get ~190 g (180 g on the one linked).

I'd guess that my fan is a PWM version specifically made for InWin by San Ace.

Going by that fan, mine should be around the same noise level, so around 50 db(A).

I can say with certainty that it does not have any annoying qualities to its sound,

even on full load. It just sounds like a lot of air being moved, no whining or something

like that.


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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The San Ace 9G0912P1G09

There is no info about this fan on the web, I'm presuming it's something San Ace

makes specifically for InWin in an OEM deal.

I've hooked it up to a fan controller and got a max reading of 4,800 rpm, and

the Supermicro board turns them down to ~2,200 rpm on idle. They seem to be very

good fans, you can only really hear the sound of the air moving, no bearing or

motor noises so far. Also, they are heavy (~200 g per piece), which is always

nice for a build quality fetishist such as myself. :D

Compared to the Noctua fan which comes with the coolers. I might still go with

the Noctuas, but it's not the plan at the moment.

(click image for full res)

aw--apollo--2013-11-14--07--san-ace-noct

 

 

4,800 rpm! Love those strong composite fans with powerful motors.  Quite at low speed and can push if needed... let you know it's getting nice and toasty :D. Need to find 120mm ones for my antec khuler.  The ones that came with it are are pretty good, 600 - 2400 rpm (over 100cfm).  

 

That wimpy Noctua fan lol.... Maybe the newer ones with stronger motor and material will interest me.  (they cost over $30-$40 a pop though  <_< )


My Rigs (past and present)

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Posted · Original PosterOP

4,800 rpm! Love those strong composite fans with powerful motors.  Quite at low speed and can push if needed... let you know it's getting nice and toasty :D. Need to find 120mm ones for my antec khuler.  The ones that came with it are are pretty good, 600 - 2400 rpm (over 100cfm).

Yeah, I'm quite conflicted when it comes to fans in general. On one hand, I love stuff

with heft and solidity to it, things with proper build quality. I would have loved to

use some proper solid fans in HELIOS, but it just doesn't make sense.

Because, on the other hand, I want my PC (the one that's going to end up in my room, which

APOLLO won't) to be whisper quiet, for which these sorts of fans just aren't suited.

Even if you turn them down, you can never turn them down as much as a good "normal" PC

fan, they're just not made for that.

Also, finding San Ace or similar fans in 140 mm is very tricky, and they are very expensive

(cheapest source I've been able to find was 50 USD per fan, and I'd need 8 of them :lol: ).

The Spectre Pros I'm using in HELIOS can be turned down to almost noiseless levels, plus

with the copper paint they look pretty good IMO, so I'm still quite happy. I would love to

have a really silent 140 x 38 mm fan though, but that just doesn't exist. But the radiators

I'm using are extremely well suited for low-rpm fans, plus I have enough radiator surface

so that I should get some very good temps even with just a whiff of air moving over the rads.

But at least APOLLO is giving me the opportunity to play around with some proper fans for

a change, so I get to do that after all. :)

I recommend looking on eBay for 120 mm San Ace fans, I got myself some thermally controlled

120 x 38 mm ones for cooling the HDD bays (haven't arrived yet though).

That wimpy Noctua fan lol.... Maybe the newer ones with stronger motor and material will interest me.  (they cost over $30-$40 a pop though  <_< )

At least it's nice and quiet, I'll give it that. And yeah, I'm definitely curious about

their new industrial fans as well.


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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Posted · Original PosterOP

New build! Awww yeah, get excited everybody

Thanks, I am! ;)

Since I'm here anyway: The system has successfully passed several rounds of memtest,

so I think the hardware is OK. wheee.gif


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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Posted · Original PosterOP

Up and Running, Ghetto Style


Hardware Validation

I've  put the  system together  temporarily to  validate the
M/B, CPU and  memory, so far all seems  good. A minimal Arch
Linux setup  has been installed and  is successfully running
BOINC at the moment. :)

EDIT:
I'm  not running BOINC  as a hardware validation tool, that's
not what it's designed to  do. I have (mostly) validated the
hardware and am now just running BOINC.

Just to clarify. ;)
/EDIT

Gotta love low-power CPUs, core temps after about an hour of
running BOINC on all cores are:
31 C, 31 C, 35 C, 30 C,
32 C, 26 C, 29 C, 31 C


(click image for full res)
aw--apollo--2013-11-16--02--boinc.jpeg


Feast on the Ghetto-ness!

Yeah... :D

(click image for full res)
aw--apollo--2013-11-16--01--ghetto-setup


Next Up

I'll need to order some  supplies for modding the front part
of  the case  for more  HDDs. Still not  sure if  I'll paint
it. Can't  paint  it  in  the apartment,  and  temps  in  my
workshop in the basement have dropped significantly since we
now  have just  a  few degrees  above  freezing outside,  so
conditions for spray painting are  not optimal at all at the
moment.

 


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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Ghetto style or not, thats some epic temps there...as you say though, step outside for any duration and you might find afew of your toes in the bottom of your shoes when you take them off lol. Thats pretty mad all in all. Whats that noctua doing down the bottom? Cooling chipset? Always amazed dude, your a machine. Love it ;). Oh, and your going Linux...braver than me. I'd love to try it one day.


 Cpu: i7 3930k 4.4ghz Ram: Corsair Dominator 2133mhz 16gb Quad Channel Gpu: GTX680 FTW x 2 Psu: Silverstone Strider 1000w Motherboard:  Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Case: Silverstone Temjin TJ11 costom modded Mouse: Logitech MX620 cordless Monitor: Asus SSD: Intel 520 60gb Build Log: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/17437-the-silent-one-first-modintro-tj11-10-10-13/

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Ghetto style or not, thats some epic temps there...

Yeah, you really notice powerful fans combined with just 40 W TDP. :D

as you say though, step outside for any duration and you might find afew of your toes in the bottom of your shoes when you take them off lol. Thats pretty mad all in all.

Haha, it's not that bad yet, but yeah. ;)

Whats that noctua doing down the bottom? Cooling chipset?

Yup, that's giving the chipset some air. The chipset heat sink becomes pretty

damn hot, if I leave off the Noctua fan I can't touch the chipset cooler.

Now I know why the SR-2 requires water cooling on the M/B when you start

overclocking it. :lol:

Always amazed dude, your a machine. Love it ;).

Thanks mate, I aim to please. :)

Oh, and your going Linux...braver than me. I'd love to try it one day.

It's not actually that difficult (unless you start doing some really complicated

stuff obviously), but it does take a bit of time and some dedication to learn,

especially if you don't have somebody holding your hand during your newbie phase

(if you can find a real-life friend who's knowledgeable about Linux and willing

to help you out at the start I highly recommend that, helped me a ton).

You don't necessarily need to start with Arch. Something like Debian, Mint or Ubuntu

is not difficult at all to set up (although personally I think Arch is a lot simpler

than people usually think, all you really need to do is follow instructions from

the documentation and/or whatever tutorial you happen to be using, it looks a lot

scarier than it actually is). There are tons of tutorials around, I especially

recommend having a look at Youtube. I always consult a tutorial on Youtube about

installing Arch when I need to do a fresh install, makes life much easier even

for me (and I've been using it for two and a half years now, and had my first dip

in Linux waters almost ten years ago).

If you have the time and motivation to learn Linux, it's absolutely feasible to

get good enough to use it on your everyday personal machine (as long as you are

not dependent on software which is not available for Linux) within a relatively

short amount of time, but there's no way around just sitting down and doing some

good old-fashioned hard work at the beginning. :)


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
FORUM INFO: Community Standards ::: The Moderating Team ::: 10TB+ Storage Showoff Topic

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Yeah, you really notice powerful fans combined with just 40 W TDP. :D

Under load with Prime95 for several hours, my 45 W TDP processor doesn't even reach 40C with a Cooler Master Hyper TX3, with the stock fan spinning at about 1100RPM. Love my little Sempron sometimes. :D


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Posted · Original PosterOP

Under load with Prime95 for several hours, my 45 W TDP processor doesn't even reach 40C with a Cooler Master Hyper TX3, with the stock fan spinning at about 1100RPM. Love my little Sempron sometimes. :D

Haven't run prime yet, but now I'm curious. Will report back with results.

Funny thing is, the fans are actually only spinning @ 2,500 rpm (quite a

bit less than full power, and certainly a lot less noisy, in fact they're

quite tolerable at this level). If the CPU gets too hot, they will spin

up, but I haven't even been able to get the CPU hot enough yet. :D


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
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Yup, that's giving the chipset some air. The chipset heat sink becomes pretty

damn hot, if I leave off the Noctua fan I can't touch the chipset cooler.

Now I know why the SR-2 requires water cooling on the M/B when you start

overclocking it. :lol:

Oh hell yeah. That's a lot of juice pumping through that single chipset, easy to see why it'd get unstable when putting more through it. The chipset imo is one of the places on a motherboard that seems always to be neglected cooling wise. Never has anything near as robust in terms of cooling as does the CPU, yet it plays a role perhaps just as vital if not more so. That's why I'm fond of the SR, although as you state when you start to OC it still doesn't cut it.

 

It's not actually that difficult (unless you start doing some really complicated

stuff obviously), but it does take a bit of time and some dedication to learn,

especially if you don't have somebody holding your hand during your newbie phase

(if you can find a real-life friend who's knowledgeable about Linux and willing

to help you out at the start I highly recommend that, helped me a ton).

You don't necessarily need to start with Arch. Something like Debian, Mint or Ubuntu

is not difficult at all to set up (although personally I think Arch is a lot simpler

than people usually think, all you really need to do is follow instructions from

the documentation and/or whatever tutorial you happen to be using, it looks a lot

scarier than it actually is). There are tons of tutorials around, I especially

recommend having a look at Youtube. I always consult a tutorial on Youtube about

installing Arch when I need to do a fresh install, makes life much easier even

for me (and I've been using it for two and a half years now, and had my first dip

in Linux waters almost ten years ago).

If you have the time and motivation to learn Linux, it's absolutely feasible to

get good enough to use it on your everyday personal machine (as long as you are

not dependent on software which is not available for Linux) within a relatively

short amount of time, but there's no way around just sitting down and doing some

good old-fashioned hard work at the beginning. :)

I think is just the fear factor, that perhaps its too much trouble then what its worth. I really like the UI of Ubuntu Linux offers, really smooth and there's lots of custom options for skin types etc. That's another thing I like about Linux is the ability to custom program for your liking. The main thing that turns me off is the compatibility with a lot of mainstream software and hardware. It' be really cool to see it come out of the shadows and become more of a mainstream UI for people, right up there with MS. Sadly though I don't think the market is big enough for them to invest in it. Besides, Linux and its variants..I'm not sure that's what they want anyway. Its always been a techies OS and that's a kind of an exclusive field, why not keep it that way you know.


 Cpu: i7 3930k 4.4ghz Ram: Corsair Dominator 2133mhz 16gb Quad Channel Gpu: GTX680 FTW x 2 Psu: Silverstone Strider 1000w Motherboard:  Gigabyte GA-X79-UP4 Case: Silverstone Temjin TJ11 costom modded Mouse: Logitech MX620 cordless Monitor: Asus SSD: Intel 520 60gb Build Log: https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/17437-the-silent-one-first-modintro-tj11-10-10-13/

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Also, finding San Ace or similar fans in 140 mm is very tricky, and they are very expensive

(cheapest source I've been able to find was 50 USD per fan, and I'd need 8 of them :lol: ).

I recommend looking on eBay for 120 mm San Ace fans, I got myself some thermally controlled

120 x 38 mm ones for cooling the HDD bays (haven't arrived yet though).

At least it's nice and quiet, I'll give it that. And yeah, I'm definitely curious about

their new industrial fans as well.

I see you only using two of those neat San Ace fans... care to sell a couple?  :D  

 

 

I actually don't mind the extra noise since I just turn it up when I'm not in room.  If noctua have a overdrive setting for their current fans, I would get them. 


My Rigs (past and present)

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Posted · Original PosterOP

Oh hell yeah. That's a lot of juice pumping through that single chipset, easy to see why it'd get unstable when putting more through it. The chipset imo is one of the places on a motherboard that seems always to be neglected cooling wise. Never has anything near as robust in terms of cooling as does the CPU, yet it plays a role perhaps just as vital if not more so. That's why I'm fond of the SR, although as you state when you start to OC it still doesn't cut it.

True, but the SR-2 actually has a pretty high-rpm cooler for the chipset and the NF200

chips (makes lots of noise as well :lol: ). This M/B on the other hand was obviously

made to be run in a server where there's lots of air flowing through anyway which the

passive cooler would be able to use.

However, modern chipsets are not like the 5520 anymore, they use a lot less power.

According to Intel's Ark, the 5520 has a TDP of 27.1 W, whereas the current equivalent

C606 has a TDP of just 12 W.

I think is just the fear factor, that perhaps its too much trouble then what its worth. I really like the UI of Ubuntu Linux offers, really smooth and there's lots of custom options for skin types etc. That's another thing I like about Linux is the ability to custom program for your liking. The main thing that turns me off is the compatibility with a lot of mainstream software and hardware. It' be really cool to see it come out of the shadows and become more of a mainstream UI for people, right up there with MS. Sadly though I don't think the market is big enough for them to invest in it. Besides, Linux and its variants..I'm not sure that's what they want anyway. Its always been a techies OS and that's a kind of an exclusive field, why not keep it that way you know.

TBH it's been years since I've encountered a proper hardware issue on Linux, unless

you're running something really special that's not usually a problem these days.

Software however is another thing. In my personal opinion, the primary thing keeping

Linux from getting wide-spread (no matter how good and user-friendly the OS itself

actually becomes) is the lack of MS office. I know, there are good office suites for

Linux, but none of them offer precise and absolutely exact rendering of MS office

documents.

Sure, you can open an MS Word document and have the formatting more or less intact

for the most part, but try using Powerpoint animations in Libreoffice... not a pleasant

experience. As long as office bimbo XY can't send memo # 08/15 to office drone AB and

be certain that od AB can faithfully render that document on its machine without manual

interference, Linux is pretty much screwed on home and office PCs. Because whether or

not we like it, MS Office documents are a de facto standard (a fact which I am not at all

happy about, but going into that would result in a much lengthier post still :lol: ), and

for the foreseeable future there's no getting around them.

Personally I'd much prefer LaTeX over MS office. And in all seriousness, once you take

a few hours for learning the basics it's really not that complicated for everyday use,

in fact you'll probably be more efficient than with a conventional office suite, but as

you say, fear factor and such.

I see you only using two of those neat San Ace fans... care to sell a couple?  :D  

 

 

I actually don't mind the extra noise since I just turn it up when I'm not in room.  If noctua have a overdrive setting for their current fans, I would get them.

Haha, I'm only using two for now. Seriously, the chipset on this board gets

ridiculously hot, I think I'll end up using the third 92 fan for chipset cooling,

the 80 mm one will stay in its HDD cage assembly. If you really want some San Ace

goodness I recommend eBay, that's where my 120 x 38's will be coming from. :)

On a stranger note: Started to run some mprime tests (the Linux version of Prime95).

First test (small FFT's) shut the system off after two seconds (no crash or anything,

it just shut off). Switched to blend mode for the second test, lasted two minutes

and then shut off as well. Third try (also blend) resulted in aborted workers, but

no system shut off.

So, I checked memory voltages and such, looking fine. Then it turns out the memory

had been automatically set to 1333 MHz by the system. Not a problem for the memory,

which according to its spec sheet can run fine at those frequencies, but the memory

controller on the L5630's are only rated for 1066 MHz.

Lowered the memory frequency, system shut off after a few minutes longer (no mprime

errors though kept a close eye on things, just *pooof* and no more power). CPU temps

never go above 37 C on the hottest core. TBH I'm thinking it's probably the chipset

overheating, its heat sink gets so hot I cannot touch it at all during mprime runs.

A hard shut-off like that doesn't really smell like something the OS would (or even

could) do, looks much more like the M/B has a protective mechanism somewhere which

is going off.

The fact that I can't turn the system back on for a few minutes after that (well, it

just shuts itself off again before even POSTing) is also a strong indicator for this

I believe.

BOINC runs without issues whatsoever @ 100% on all 16 threads.

I've used this opportunity to do a few power draw measurements at the wall socket:

IDLE: ~65 W :)

BOINC on 16 threads: ~154 W

Mprime Blend test on 16 threads: ~173 W

Overall I'm not really worried about this though, at least for the time being. These are

server components all running within their rated specs and so far I have zero indications

besides mprime that something is wrong. Yes, I know there's a small chance that something

is actually broken, however I consider that unlikely based on my current info. If I start

to encounter system instabilities elsewhere I will certainly become more skeptical about

the general well-being of my hardware though, and I will definitely keep a close eye on

things now.

Also, I will refrain from running mprime for now and look into improving chipset cooling.

One of my spare San Ace's might work for that. ;)


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
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Another amazing build :)


i7 4790k | Asus Z97 Maximus VII Hero | 16Gb Dominator Platinum 2133mhz | Gigabyte Windforce 970 1563/1928


H100i w/ Swiftech Helix fans | Evga G2 850w | 6x SSDs | 6x Seagate Barracudas


Fractal Define R4 Titanium| HD558 w/ Fiio E10 | AT2020 | G710+ | Logitech G700s |  DP2710 Asus PA248Q

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Posted · Original PosterOP

To cold to paint? Just move all your computer gear into the basement and let that heat it up! xD

 

Haha, my heating unit (i.e. HELIOS) isn't in service yet :lol:

 

Another amazing build :)

 

Thanks! :)

 

Sneaky, very sneaky

As a fellow Linux enthusiast, I shall allow it. ;)

OK, I've done a bit more testing. I have now also successfully managed to force

a shut off with BOINC. Touching the chipset heat sink is pretty much impossible

even when running that. After shutting off, the machine repeatedly attempts to

turn itself on again (a pretty cool feature I must say), but shuts off each time

during the next 20 minutes or so, which very much sounds like an overheating

protection mechanism to me. Since the only thing getting hot is the chipset,

I am now very confident that that is indeed the issue.

I have now ghetto-mounted the San Ace 80 mm fan onto the chipset cooler and will

be running some more tests, let's see how things go. Otherwise I'll need to find

a beefier chipset heat sink, but it's going to be tricky to mount with the way

the mounting system is designed on this board.


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
FORUM INFO: Community Standards ::: The Moderating Team ::: 10TB+ Storage Showoff Topic

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 Otherwise I'll need to find

a beefier chipset heat sink, but it's going to be tricky to mount with the way

the mounting system is designed on this board.

A friend of yours had his own mill, right? I say go for custom waterblock! :D

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Posted · Original PosterOP

A friend of yours had his own mill, right? I say go for custom waterblock! :D

Haha, yeah my neighbour does. Wouldn't even need that though, I still have

some Aquacomputer chipset coolers from my very early W/C days. But I don't

really want to W/C this thing, having bought those nice Noctuas and all.

How about bolting an NH-D14 to the chipset? :lol:

Seriously though, if it really turns out that I need a better heat sink I'll

probably use one of my leftover Intel LGA1155 stock coolers, they're designed

for 95 W TDP CPUs, that should be enough to get those pesky 30 W or so off

that chipset.


BUILD LOGS: HELIOS - Latest Update: 2015-SEP-06 ::: ZEUS - BOTW 2013-JUN-28 ::: APOLLO - Complete: 2014-MAY-10
OTHER STUFF: Cable Lacing Tutorial ::: What Is ZFS? ::: mincss Primer ::: LSI RAID Card Flashing Tutorial
FORUM INFO: Community Standards ::: The Moderating Team ::: 10TB+ Storage Showoff Topic

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