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Skylake & Haswell-E PCIe lane misconception

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Posted · Original PosterOP
18 minutes ago, SaladFingers said:

Yes and the end result is that with an X99 chipset there are more configuration options. It's a little misleading to directly compare only what the chipset is capable of, when chipsets are designed to work with a CPU in the first place.

I explicitly compared both what the CPUs offer and what the chipsets offer.

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1 minute ago, Sakkura said:

I explicitly compared both what the CPUs offer and what the chipsets offer.

Fair enough.


 
~ Specs bellow ~
 
 
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit [UEFI] (Main PC)
CPU: Intel i7-5820k Haswell-E @ 4.5-4.7Ghz (1.366-1.431V) | CPU COOLER: Corsair H110 280mm AIO w/ 2x Noctua NF-A14 IPPC-2000 IP67 | RAM: G.Skill Ripjaws 4 32Gb (8x4Gb) DDR4 @ 2666mhz CL15 | MOBO: MSI X99S Gaming 7 ATX | GPU: MSI GTX 1080 Gaming (flashed "X") @ 2138-2151Mhz (locked 1.093V) | PSU: Corsair HX850i 850W 80+ Platinum | SSD's: Samsung Pro 950 256Gb & Samsung Evo 850 500Gb | HDD: WD Black Series 6Tb | AUDIO: Realtek ALC1150 HD Audio | CASE: NZXT Phantom 530 | MONITORS: LG 34UC79G 34" 2560x1080p @144hz & BenQ XL2411Z 24" 1080p @144hz | SPEAKERS: Logitech Z-5450 Digital 5.1 Speaker System | HEADSET: SteelSeries Siberia v2 | KEYBOARD: Corsair Strafe MX Cherry Red | MOUSE: Razer Deathadder Chroma | UPS: PowerWalker VI 2000 LCD
 
Mac Pro 2,1 (flashed) OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan 64-bit (NAS, Plex, HTTP Server, Game Servers)
CPUs: 2x Intel Xeon X5365 @ 3.3Ghz (FSB OC) | RAM: OWC 16Gb (8x2Gb) ECC-FB DDR2 @ 1333mhz | GPU: AMD HD5870 (flashed) | HDDs: WD Black Series 3Tb, 2x WD Black Series 1Tb, WD Blue 2Tb | UPS: Fortron EP1000
 
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12 hours ago, TheProfosist said:

haswell had more lanes (I believe 16) than that they were just tighter on what you could or couldnt disable that's generally built in like SATA ports, audio, LAN, etc

Haswell CPUs have 16 3.0 lanes, but most of the chipsets (including X99) have only eight 2.0 lanes. H81, the only exception I can find, has just six lanes.

 

z97-chipset-diagram.png

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11 hours ago, SaladFingers said:

Yeah I didn't write that properly. I didn't mean you could have all of that at once. 

 

My point is that, having more chipset PCI lanes but less CPU lanes, doesn't make the board superior, because the real life configurations will always be more limited. You can't compare boards without taking into consideration the actual CPUs available to them.

 

PS: Actually the physical room would be enough for quite a few X99 boards though.

I would agree with this.

 

9 hours ago, Sakkura said:

The X99 chipset is far inferior to the Z170 chipset when it comes to PCIe connectivity. 8 PCIe 2.0 lanes vs. 20 PCIe 3.0 lanes is a massive win for Z170.

 

But the CPUs that plug into the two platforms are the other way around, with Haswell-E and Broadwell-E processors featuring more direct PCIe lanes than Skylake etc.

But the 8 lanes of PCI-E 2.0 are fully open unless the MB MFG adds something that isnt usually built into the chipset.

 

40 lanes of CPU alone trumps the 16+"20". I still dont think you can call it 20 lanes because as long as all the normal stuff on the chipset is enabled there are really just 4 more than previously, enough for a M.2 drive.

 

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6 hours ago, typographie said:

Haswell CPUs have 16 3.0 lanes, but the most of the chipsets (including X99) have only eight 2.0 lanes. H81, the only exception I can find, has six lanes.

 

z97-chipset-diagram.png

include the lanes assigned to the USB ports and the LAN as well as sudio and SATA since that is included in Z170 but intel allows MFG's to disable them if they really think they need to. This is what Z170 boards that have dual or even triple M.2 slots do. You have to remember though that DMI 3.0 is roughly PCI-E 3.0 x4 which is what one M.2 drive would use so youll cap really quick.

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2 minutes ago, TheProfosist said:

include the lanes assigned to the USB ports and the LAN as well as sudio and SATA since that is included in Z170 but intel allows MFG's to disable them if they really think they need to. This is what Z170 boards that have dual or even triple M.2 slots do. You have to remember though that DMI 3.0 is roughly PCI-E 3.0 x4 which is what one M.2 drive would use so youll cap really quick.

Z97 actually allowed that to some extent as well id have to find the diagram. Like you could go down to 4 SATA and use that bandwith for other stuff. There are diagrams that show what is on which lanes. I have even seen ASUS Z170 ones for specific boards that were modified from standard.

 

You get a ton of if this is enabled or used this is disabled or not available. Not a bad thing wish it was like that on my Sabertooth X99 because with a M.2 in it disables your x8 slot instead of dropping its speed to x4 and still being usable.

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Sabertooth Z170 mark 1
6700k

 

Can I 
1080SLI
512GB 950* pro M.2
1TB 850 Evo 
Essence STX II
PC AC88

 

I see the 960 pro is coming out this month for about the same price as the 950 pro currently sells. Recommend I wait or given the limitations mentioned here about x4 from chipset to CPU, keep my 950 pro order?

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Posted · Original PosterOP
8 hours ago, TheProfosist said:

But the 8 lanes of PCI-E 2.0 are fully open unless the MB MFG adds something that isnt usually built into the chipset.

 

40 lanes of CPU alone trumps the 16+"20". I still dont think you can call it 20 lanes because as long as all the normal stuff on the chipset is enabled there are really just 4 more than previously, enough for a M.2 drive.

 

Fully open? If you mean they cannot be bottlenecked by the DMI, you're wrong. Z170 has twice as much bandwidth between chipset and CPU.

 

40 PCIe lanes directly from the CPU is more than 16 + 20, sure. But there are some complications around PCIe storage, and some of the HEDT CPUs only come with 28 PCIe lanes.

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4 hours ago, NekoPlasmid said:

Sabertooth Z170 mark 1
6700k

 

Can I 
1080SLI
512GB 950* pro M.2
1TB 850 Evo 
Essence STX II
PC AC88

 

I see the 960 pro is coming out this month for about the same price as the 950 pro currently sells. Recommend I wait or given the limitations mentioned here about x4 from chipset to CPU, keep my 950 pro order?

The 960 Pro will be better performance for the same price or cheaper not sure on the launch date. you wont bottle neck one going though the DMI on Z170 two in RAID0 however will.

 

1 hour ago, Sakkura said:

Fully open? If you mean they cannot be bottlenecked by the DMI, you're wrong. Z170 has twice as much bandwidth between chipset and CPU.

 

40 PCIe lanes directly from the CPU is more than 16 + 20, sure. But there are some complications around PCIe storage, and some of the HEDT CPUs only come with 28 PCIe lanes.

One PCI-E 3.0 x4 SSD nearly uses up DMI 3.0. 2 of those drives in RAID 0 do have their reads being bottle necked. You also have to remember all the other stuff that has to go through there at the same time.

 

The lowest chip does and id still rather have it. You just cant plan as much expansion as 40. You still have more total bandwith even without including DMI 2.0.

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Quick question

i wanted to build a cheap computer with future upgrade

But that's not the point now

i wanted to know if i get myself a

msi z170 ging pro carbon 

Corsair 2x4gb vengance pro red

intel skylake i7-6700k

How many video on board do i get? Around 1 or 2 gb? Just for my information

and also fyi i'm not going to play something badass like crysis or something heavy like that just for some coreldraw or some photoshop cause i'm saving some money for 1070 seahawk

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17 hours ago, TheProfosist said:

The 960 Pro will be better performance for the same price or cheaper not sure on the launch date. you wont bottle neck one going though the DMI on Z170 two in RAID0 however will.

 

One PCI-E 3.0 x4 SSD nearly uses up DMI 3.0. 2 of those drives in RAID 0 do have their reads being bottle necked. You also have to remember all the other stuff that has to go through there at the same time.

 

The lowest chip does and id still rather have it. You just cant plan as much expansion as 40. You still have more total bandwith even without including DMI 2.0.

Can I connect all those things in my list without issue tho? Someone from Asus said using the M.2 drive will affect my SLI but that's not what I'm getting from this forum so I'm confused.

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1 hour ago, NekoPlasmid said:

Can I connect all those things in my list without issue tho? Someone from Asus said using the M.2 drive will affect my SLI but that's not what I'm getting from this forum so I'm confused.

that all depends on how the MFG distributed the lanes. I would need to know the exact Motherboard and CPU then look up the manual. Which you could do as well.

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19 hours ago, TheProfosist said:

that all depends on how the MFG distributed the lanes. I would need to know the exact Motherboard and CPU then look up the manual. Which you could do as well.

"Which you could do as well"

 

Posting for help on a forum is not always easy for me given I used to have lots a free time and liked reading up everything I could find myself. That said, I posted my question with the understanding you just pointed out because I don't have much free time in my job and have to juggle sleep with reading up on stuff like this.  I'll put up some extra time for this reply.

 

At the same time I have to understand people posting helpful replies could be under the same circumstances and that's all good. I just felt like telling you this to remind us that, while it may seem like we(people needing help) make you do all the work, sometimes it honestly is for reasonable reasons we don't just find the answer ourselfs.

 

I read through a good portion of this thread and did lols of looking/reading around as I was building my system every time I got the chance to. From the graph posted and what I read, the z170 chipset with my motherboards m.2 slot shouldn't interfere with an SLI set up. I did actually download the manual for the sabertooth but I'm not sure I understand it clearly. The reason I posted my first question was because my findings said many things, including SLI plus m.2 would be fine but I cant add all the extra cards, yet an Asus rep said no to just SLI and M.2. Then on top of this I read some of the PCI E ports could actually be occupied without affecting SLI on a 16 lane CPU, so I got confused yet again thinking before they could not with SLI.

 

The manual list the M.2 slot shares bandwidth with the lowest PCI E x16 slot. Under storage, it has the m.2 socket listed below the Z170 chipset. My take away from all this is the m.2 and last PCI E x16 slot run through the Z170 chipset. Therefore I can not only have a 960 pro connected to it with SLI cards, I can also connect an extra PCI accessory to the last PCI E x16 slot as well. The limits with this set up being everything running through the Z170 chipset to the CPU shares the bandwidth of PCI E x4. From here we get the understandings it may pose a bottleneck but not everything connecting to the Z170 chipset would be running at max capacity all at once. I'm back and forth between it will work without limitations, it will work with limitations, it won't work, limitation are practically a non issue, limitations are a practical issue....

 

I have an Asus rep telling me the m.2 card will drop my SLI set up and recommending I go to X99. Ok, I posted my question without any extras to make it clean and to the point. I thought some people might see it, see it's my first post, and feel inclined to think I didn't do any work. Well, I decided to give it a shot anyways. 

 

"Sabertooth Z170 mark 1
6700k

 

Can I 
1080SLI
512GB 950* pro M.2
1TB 850 Evo 
Essence STX II
PC AC88

 

**posted in a edit after I found out while still looking for an answer**

I see the 960 pro is coming out this month for about the same price as the 950 pro currently sells. Recommend I wait or given the limitations mentioned here about x4 from chipset to CPU, keep my 950 pro order?"

 

link for manual:

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1151/SABERTOOTH_Z170_MARK1/E10672_SABERTOOTH_Z170_MARK1_UM_WEB.pdf

 

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3 hours ago, NekoPlasmid said:

"Which you could do as well"

 

Posting for help on a forum is not always easy for me given I used to have lots a free time and liked reading up everything I could find myself. That said, I posted my question with the understanding you just pointed out because I don't have much free time in my job and have to juggle sleep with reading up on stuff like this.  I'll put up some extra time for this reply.

 

At the same time I have to understand people posting helpful replies could be under the same circumstances and that's all good. I just felt like telling you this to remind us that, while it may seem like we(people needing help) make you do all the work, sometimes it honestly is for reasonable reasons we don't just find the answer ourselfs.

 

I read through a good portion of this thread and did lols of looking/reading around as I was building my system every time I got the chance to. From the graph posted and what I read, the z170 chipset with my motherboards m.2 slot shouldn't interfere with an SLI set up. I did actually download the manual for the sabertooth but I'm not sure I understand it clearly. The reason I posted my first question was because my findings said many things, including SLI plus m.2 would be fine but I cant add all the extra cards, yet an Asus rep said no to just SLI and M.2. Then on top of this I read some of the PCI E ports could actually be occupied without affecting SLI on a 16 lane CPU, so I got confused yet again thinking before they could not with SLI.

 

The manual list the M.2 slot shares bandwidth with the lowest PCI E x16 slot. Under storage, it has the m.2 socket listed below the Z170 chipset. My take away from all this is the m.2 and last PCI E x16 slot run through the Z170 chipset. Therefore I can not only have a 960 pro connected to it with SLI cards, I can also connect an extra PCI accessory to the last PCI E x16 slot as well. The limits with this set up being everything running through the Z170 chipset to the CPU shares the bandwidth of PCI E x4. From here we get the understandings it may pose a bottleneck but not everything connecting to the Z170 chipset would be running at max capacity all at once. I'm back and forth between it will work without limitations, it will work with limitations, it won't work, limitation are practically a non issue, limitations are a practical issue....

 

I have an Asus rep telling me the m.2 card will drop my SLI set up and recommending I go to X99. Ok, I posted my question without any extras to make it clean and to the point. I thought some people might see it, see it's my first post, and feel inclined to think I didn't do any work. Well, I decided to give it a shot anyways. 

 

"Sabertooth Z170 mark 1
6700k

 

Can I 
1080SLI
512GB 950* pro M.2
1TB 850 Evo 
Essence STX II
PC AC88

 

**posted in a edit after I found out while still looking for an answer**

I see the 960 pro is coming out this month for about the same price as the 950 pro currently sells. Recommend I wait or given the limitations mentioned here about x4 from chipset to CPU, keep my 950 pro order?"

 

link for manual:

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1151/SABERTOOTH_Z170_MARK1/E10672_SABERTOOTH_Z170_MARK1_UM_WEB.pdf

 

page 1-35 states the M.2 share bandwith with PCIe x16_3 so if if use M.2 you cant use that slot

those also share bandwith with SATA 5-6 and is in x2 normally. Making x4 would disable SATA 5-6 likely according to page ix

 

you have 2x PCI-E x1 devices and PCIe x1_1 and PCIe x1_2 are physically open based on the image on page 1-18 nothign shows this bandwith being used my anything else

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2 hours ago, TheProfosist said:

page 1-35 states the M.2 share bandwith with PCIe x16_3 so if if use M.2 you cant use that slot

those also share bandwith with SATA 5-6 and is in x2 normally. Making x4 would disable SATA 5-6 likely according to page ix

 

you have 2x PCI-E x1 devices and PCIe x1_1 and PCIe x1_2 are physically open based on the image on page 1-18 nothign shows this bandwith being used my anything else

Firstly, thanks for attempting to help me with another reply.

 

I'm a take info from my notes so I don't have to waste lots of time looking for stuff so sorry if it's a bit choppy.

 

1)"page 1-35 states the M.2 share bandwith with PCIe x16_3 so if if use M.2 you cant use that slot"

The manual says "Supports PCIE RAID configurations via onboard M.2 and PCIEX16_3 slot storages" so my guess is I can use both and PCI E x16_3 is only for storage devices?

Page x

 

@11:14 JJ confirms I can use both the onboard M.2 and included card to RAID two M.2 drives but dosent go into details on how.

 

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/70579-asus-sabertooth-z170-mark-1-motherboard-review-3.html

Last 5 paragraphs I think says using both the on board M.2 and included card is ok with SLI or maybe it says it's not, confused.

Manual and review:

Onboard M.2 disables SATA express port 1 in SATA mode I suppose? Manual page x

 

2)"those also share bandwith with SATA 5-6 and is in x2 normally. Making x4 would disable SATA 5-6 likely according to page ix"

 

Is that only in SATA mode? What's the difference? I'm confused. So PCI E x16_3 shares bandwidth with SATA express 1, SATA ports 5 & 6, and M.2 port? How about also sharing it with PCI E x16_1? Should PCI E x16_1/3 share bandwith? Do PCI E x1/3 share bandwith? Page ix, x, 1-19?

 

3)"you have 2x PCI-E x1 devices and PCIe x1_1 and PCIe x1_2 are physically open based on the image on page 1-18 nothign shows this bandwith being used my anything else"

Page 1-18 list slot 5 as PCI E X1_4? Shouldn't it be PCI E X1_3? I'm very confused. With every thing in mind and you saying those are open, would this set up be correct?

 

PCI E x1_1 AC88 Chipset lane

PCI E x16_1 1080@x8 CPU lanes 

PCI E x1_2 STX II Chipset lane

PCI E x16_2 1080 @x8 CPU lanes

PCI E x1_3 blocked by second 1080 Chipset L

PCI E x16_3 blank Chipset Ls

 

Intel

SATAExpress1(E1/2) Disabled?

SATAExpress2(E3/4) ASUS 3.1 UPD panel

SATA6G_E5 Disabled?

SATA6G_E6 Disabled?

 

ASMedia

SATA6G_E1 1TB 850 Pro

SATA6G_E2 Blank

 

M.2(SOCKET 3) 512 960 Pro

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So if I am to understand this correctly, with a Z170 board (with 20 lanes) and a 6th gen intel processor (with 16 lanes) I should be able to run two graphics cards at 8x using the processors 16 lanes and still be able to use an m.2 drive (which would disable some of my sata ports) and a PCIe x1 wi-fi card (assuming there is enough physical space to install it) using the chipset lanes?

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Posted · Original PosterOP
9 hours ago, stratoll said:

So if I am to understand this correctly, with a Z170 board (with 20 lanes) and a 6th gen intel processor (with 16 lanes) I should be able to run two graphics cards at 8x using the processors 16 lanes and still be able to use an m.2 drive (which would disable some of my sata ports) and a PCIe x1 wi-fi card (assuming there is enough physical space to install it) using the chipset lanes?

Yes, and the M.2 drive wouldn't necessarily disable any SATA ports.

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I'm about to build a gaming rig for my home theatre, and I need it to run new games at 4K min 60 fps.

I plan to run m.2 drive for os and games, and ssd for the rest, and I think about getting 2x 1080Ti's.

Will I lose FPS by going with say 7700K which only has 16 Lanes (and 4 cores)? For most games I've played so far 4 cores clocked higher has played better than 8 cores clocked slower - but I've never done SLI before, and also not played in 4K earlier.

I've been reading a bit around and it seem to be some saying it will only lose say 1fps at max - while some places state that the low count of lanes at 4K SLI will chop down a good chunk of FPS in certain games. I hope someone either know from testing or know of a valid benchmark of this which I have not yet found :)

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5 minutes ago, Camaxide said:

I'm about to build a gaming rig for my home theatre, and I need it to run new games at 4K min 60 fps.

I plan to run m.2 drive for os and games, and ssd for the rest, and I think about getting 2x 1080Ti's.

Will I lose FPS by going with say 7700K which only has 16 Lanes (and 4 cores)? For most games I've played so far 4 cores clocked higher has played better than 8 cores clocked slower - but I've never done SLI before, and also not played in 4K earlier.

I've been reading a bit around and it seem to be some saying it will only lose say 1fps at max - while some places state that the low count of lanes at 4K SLI will chop down a good chunk of FPS in certain games. I hope someone either know from testing or know of a valid benchmark of this which I have not yet found :)

Youll be fine but this really isnt a question for this thread.

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On 2/8/2017 at 1:46 PM, Unrealcpu said:

lanes vs IPC

 

ill take the IPC for gaming

an i5 and a top end GPU and your good for gaming so lanes dont even come into question.

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if ddr type ram when single card slot used run at full speed

and if when both slots used each stick runs at half speed

would not multiple gpu in use do same???

 

note of test

in system 4 sticks pull 1 card each slot

run benchmark

 

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1 hour ago, bcguru9384 said:

if ddr type ram when single card slot used run at full speed

and if when both slots used each stick runs at half speed

would not multiple gpu in use do same???

 

note of test

in system 4 sticks pull 1 card each slot

run benchmark

 

what are you trying to say im rather confused...

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17 hours ago, TheProfosist said:

what are you trying to say im rather confused...

its a ram article about 1133mhz ram

said when one dimm used then ram run at 1133mhz

if 2dimm used then ram run at 667mhz so interlace their signals

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43 minutes ago, bcguru9384 said:

its a ram article about 1133mhz ram

said when one dimm used then ram run at 1133mhz

if 2dimm used then ram run at 667mhz so interlace their signals

how does that apply to this thread?

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