Nvidia Admits "We're Falling Behind on the Frame Rate Race"

[MattDaemontools]

The only way I may consider Nvidia is if they substantially lower their prices, they already make significantly more profit margins than AMD because of their higher prices, it won't hurt them to cut prices.

[BookerDeWitt]

The drivers do improve frame times, by alot, but it still can't match hardware.

 

You can't tell the difference between crossfire with the heart beat driver vs SLI , so the supposedly "added" or "extra" smoothness is meaningless because it isn't adding anything to the experience, because you will not be able to see it even after the video is slowed down by a factor 5.

As I've already stated, I'll stand by it as good general advice - anyone who knows better wont be asking about Radeon vs GTX anyways.

Funny you should say that, so apparently Linus & Slick, the owners of this forum don't know anything about hardware, since both recommended AMD over Nvidia on their last live stream & in their graphics showdown videos that they've made.

 

Unless of course, you start arguing logically and provide counter evidence. While nit picking my statement certainly disqualifies it as a universal truth, which I never claimed in the first place, nit picking doesn't prove it too be bad general advice. Tell me the universal benefits of a crossfire setup over an SLI setup, and if they outweigh the - now minor but still existent - issues with crossfire then I'll gladly change my position.

Well a few things, #1 is that all AMD 7000 series graphics cards support CrossfireX while only the 650 Ti boost & up support it on the Nvidia side.

#2 you can crossfire a 7970, with a 7950 or even a 7870 Tahiti LE, you can only SLI identical cards.

#3 you get higher performance on the AMD side

#4 more games are AMD optimized so scaling is better on AMD right now.

#5 more motherboards support crossfire than SLI.

[kuddlesworth9419]

Frame latency is a much harder issue to solve. Nvidia has a dedicated chip on the GPU to lessen the frame times where AMD has not. They are going for a software solution which wil harm frame rates and will have a less effect than a hardware solution will have. It might take AMD 5 years to find a hardware solution which gives Nvidia plenty of time to increase the frame rates. I hope anyway. 

[GPUXPert]

Frame latency is a much harder issue to solve. Nvidia has a dedicated chip on the GPU to lessen the frame times where AMD has not. They are going for a software solution which wil harm frame rates and will have a less effect than a hardware solution will have. It might take AMD 5 years to find a hardware solution which gives Nvidia plenty of time to increase the frame rates. I hope anyway. 

The hardware solution you're talking about has only been recently implemented in Kepler (600 series) last year according to Tom Peteresen from Nvidia he didn't say that it's a chip though, could be an integrated circuit on the PCB.

AMD has had frame metering on single cards for a very long time now, that's why the 7970 is smoother than the Titan even though the Titan is faster.

[ShiverMePenguins]

Frame latency is a much harder issue to solve. Nvidia has a dedicated chip on the GPU to lessen the frame times where AMD has not. They are going for a software solution which wil harm frame rates and will have a less effect than a hardware solution will have. It might take AMD 5 years to find a hardware solution which gives Nvidia plenty of time to increase the frame rates. I hope anyway. 

what this guy said.

 

but the way you worded your last sentence confuses me. are you HOPING that amd won't provide stiff competition? how would that be better for the end user?

 

The hardware solution you're talking about has only been recently implemented in Kepler (600 series) last year according to Tom Peteresen from Nvidia he didn't say that it's a chip though, could be an integrated circuit on the PCB.

AMD has had frame metering on single cards for a very long time now, that's why the 7970 is smoother than the Titan even though the Titan is faster.

[Lukiose]

I just hope Nvidia or AMD get their things together in one piece and release a beast card capable of maxed out 60fps triple monitor gaming by end 2014 :P

Nvidia looks like they are really trying to push for high res gaming with their maxwell line, but with this topic in line, will they have the power to drive 3 monitors? With 3 x 4K not too far around the corner...

[SirReallySam]

They maybe losing the frame rate race but they're still in front in the frame latency race which we all know matters just as much maybe even more

Indeed.

[ShearMe]

You can't tell the difference between crossfire with the heart beat driver vs SLI , so the supposedly "added" or "extra" smoothness is meaningless because it isn't adding anything to the experience, because you will not be able to see it even after the video is slowed down by a factor 5.

 

 

"Meaningless" is a subjective term - I'd rather have hardware support over software support no matter how the two compare, but that's just me. If it doesn't matter to someone else then fine.

 

Funny you should say that, so apparently Linus & Slick, the owners of this forum don't know anything about hardware, since both recommended AMD over Nvidia on their last live stream & in their graphics showdown videos that they've made.

 

 

Sure they do, but the reasons behind their recommendations are different from the reasons behind mine. I'm not saying their recommendations are false or stupid, just that what's important to me isn't always the same things that are important to them.

 

Well a few things, #1 is that all AMD 7000 series graphics cards support CrossfireX while only the 650 Ti boost & up support it on the Nvidia side.

#2 you can crossfire a 7970, with a 7950 or even a 7870 Tahiti LE, you can only SLI identical cards.

#3 you get higher performance on the AMD side

#4 more games are AMD optimized so scaling is better on AMD right now.

#5 more motherboards support crossfire than SLI.

 

I'll give you points 3 and 4, but I still wont change my general advice.

[GPUXPert]

AMD's Roy Taylor VP Global Channel Sales, Technology & Content Strategist. has tweeted my article twice !!

https://twitter.com/amd_roy/status/334817305257209856

https://twitter.com/amd_roy/status/334817393501147136

[kaneandtaker]

I agree with all comments that says Multi-GPU go Nvidia, single GPU go AMD

[Bender]

I want the D, The AMD.

[TechFan@ic]

I want the D, The AMD.

Bender Bending Rodriguez ?

[LinusTech]

I put some comments from NVIDIA into the OP. They just wanted to clarify what Tom said, so I left the original post completely unaltered, but put their version of the story into the OP as well.

[GPUXPert]

UPDATE !
RESPONSE TO NVIDIA.

[TechFan@ic]

This should be added to the live stream discussions, what a lively debate !

[TERAFLOP]

I put some comments from NVIDIA into the OP. They just wanted to clarify what Tom said, so I left the original post completely unaltered, but put their version of the story into the OP as well.

When we said we don't want the sponsorships to change you, this is exactly what we meant.

You shouldn't be doing Nvidia's job for them Linus.

We like you because you know what you're talking about & you're independent, fair & unbiased.

If Nvidia wanted to get their point across they should've responded to this thread just like Swiftech's CEO did to the H220 thread.

[KaareKanin]

What saddens me is that a topic, based on a misquote, taken out of context, and riddled with fanboyism, has gotten attention like this outside of the forums. I wish the LTT forums all the acknowledgment and attention it deserves, but I fear that it being used as a tool for big companies might not be the best way to spread the word. 

 

UPDATE !

I want to make a few points in response to Nvidia’s statement, as an author of this article, a gamer & a PC hardware enthusiast.

 

  I want start out by thanking Nvidia for their response & interaction but I would like to say that I would have preferred if Nvidia made an independent statement rather than tell Linus to make a statement on their behalf. 

Linus is an independent journalist & a great friend of this community and as such I think that it was inappropriate to let Linus relay Nvidia’s message for them. 

  As Linus is not an Nvidia employee It would have been more appropriate to let one of Nvidia’s own make a reply or the great Tom Petersen himself comment on his own statements.

 

  Moving forward, I want to comment on the content of Nvidia’s response in a number of points so please bare with me. 

 

 The first point that I want to make is that there is absolutely no difference between raw framerate & framerate, as framerate or (frames per second FPS) is a scientific & factual metric, as such these metrics only exist in a single form & thus they are raw by definition. 

And for Nvidia to try to insinuate or suggest otherwise is misleading to our readers. 

 

 The second point that I want to make is that as a hardcore gamer & graphics enthusiast I found it admirable that Nvidia indulged in self-criticism & acknowledged that there is an area where they may be falling behind and where they can improve, their statement today however is back-peddling from all of that.

 Back-peddling from self criticism means back-peddling from the acknowledgement of a mistake & the effort to correct it.

  And that is bad for me & you as consumers because we’re the ones that may suffer from it & it’s also bad for Nvidia because it means that they’re deviating from the path of empowering & innovation driving self-criticism & analysis. 

 

-GPUXPert

My thoughts on this update:

 

Linus is an independent, yes. But Linus is also the owner of this forum, and as such the right person to contact about this matter. I would compare Linus (and his crew, but foremost Linus) with a news editor. And when there's factual mistakes in an "article", he's the right guy to fix it

 

If you absolutely don't want to understand what he meant by raw frame rates, then you are a lost case in this discussion. I suppose you saw the video, and as such you would have understood that the discussion mainly revolved around dual GPU solutions. Now, yes, if you have no intention of trying to understand what he meant, then raw frame rate and frame rate are in fact the same thing. That being said, a lot of the point in that discussion was that a lot of the frames dual AMD solutions are producing are so insignificant that they shouldn't be counted towards the frame rate, this is what Ryan calls the perceived frame rate, and this is what nVidia has worked towards. THIS is what they were talking about, and this is where he pointed out that nVidia had focussed on making sure every frame counted, as opposed to what would appear as just making the frame rate as high as possible (even if it would mean a lot of dropped frames and runts and micro stuttering and all of that). He was saying that that's why he was out talking to people, he even pointed that out to you (/us, the viewers). 

 

I didn't feel that nVidia took any kind of self criticism, for better or for worse. In fact, while it is to be expected from a guy who works at nVidia, the video was a little to centered on all the great stuff nVidia had done over the years and not anything that wasn't great

[TechFan@ic]

KaareKanin, on 17 May 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

KaareKanin, on 17 May 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

What saddens me is that a topic, based on a misquote, taken out of context, and riddled with fanboyism, has gotten attention like this outside of the forums. I wish the LTT forums all the acknowledgment and attention it deserves, but I fear that it being used as a tool for big companies might not be the best way to spread the word.

My thoughts on this update:

Linus is an independent, yes. But Linus is also the owner of this forum, and as such the right person to contact about this matter. I would compare Linus (and his crew, but foremost Linus) with a news editor. And when there's factual mistakes in an "article", he's the right guy to fix it

Can you please point out to me where those factual mistakes are, because I watched the whole interview & I don't see any factual mistakes in the OP.

The OP writer also linked the whole interview & put what Petersen said into context by saying that he was asked why Nvidia hadn't talked about this earlier & then included the quotes as an answer, so every person reading can put what he said into context.

I also don't see any fan bias in his post, in fact the quotes he put there included a lot of Nvidia glorying statements & yet some people are ignoring that.

I also agree with teraflop, Gabriel Rouchon CEO of Swiftech replied personally to a thread where the H220 was criticized, he didn't tell Linus or anyone from the Linus Media Group to reply on his behalf.

Quotebut I fear that it being used as a tool for big companies might not be the best way to spread the word.

You should know that I personally tweeted this thread to both AMD & Nvidia, & Roy Taylor from AMD kindly re-tweeted the link I sent him.

[naca1227]

I love both :/

[KaareKanin]

Can you please point out to me where those factual mistakes are, because I watched the whole interview & I don't see any factual mistakes in the OP.

The OP writer also linked the whole interview so every person can put what he said into context I also don't see any fan bias in his post, in fact he put two quotes in his post & yet everyone including you is focusing on the second one which is really sad.

I also agree with teraflop, Gabriel Rouchon CEO of Swiftech replied personally to a thread where the H220 was criticized, he didn't tell Linus or anyone from the Linus Media Group to reply on his behalf.

You seem to miss a whole lot of points in your defense of Nvidia.

The factual mistakes I was referring to was the misquote.

With regards to fanboyism, you'll note that I wrote topic and not post.

And with regards to context, when I read news, I expect there to be context when there's a quote (not a source, but a summary of the situation in which it was given)

I would agree that if it were only critique, then the right thing to do would have been to make their own statement, but this was misinformation

Edit: my involvement in this thread isn't because I wanted to defend nvidia, it's because I think it's wrong that people gets the wrong picture, and since I actually had seen the video before this thread was started, I knew there was something not right

[TechFan@ic]

The factual mistakes I was referring to was the misquote.

And with regards to context, when I read news, I expect there to be context when there's a quote

I would agree that if it were only critique, then the right thing to do would have been to make their own statement, but this was misinformation

Edit: my involvement in this thread isn't because I wanted to defend nvidia, it's because I think it's wrong that people gets the wrong picture, and since I actually had seen the video before this thread was started, I knew there was something not right

It wasn't a misquote though, because the meaning of both quotes is exactly the same, adding "raw" to frame rate doesn't change anything.

 

And with regards to context, when I read news, I expect there to be context when there's a quote

Proper context was provided though, the OP pre-phased by :

"Nvidia's Tom Petersen was asked in a recent PCPer.com interview why the shift & why now ? Why haven't Nvidia talked about this before?"

[KaareKanin]

It wasn't a misquote though, because the meaning of both quotes is exactly the same, adding "raw" to frame rate doesn't change anything.

 

Proper context was provided though, the OP pre-phased by :

"Nvidia's Tom Petersen was asked in a recent PCPer.com interview why the shift & why now ? Why haven't Nvidia talked about this before?"

 

There was a whole lot more red words in the corrected quote in the Linus edit than just the word "raw". Also there was no indication in the text that the quote had been altered.

 

Also, the context would have been that they had just looked at some results from frame rating an AMD dual GPU solution, nVidia-guy then went on to briefly summarize techniques to improve frame rating. They had actually moved on from the question of why nVidia hadn't talked about frame rating before.

[TechFan@ic]

There was a whole lot more red words in the corrected quote in the Linus edit than just the word "raw". Also there was no indication in the text that the quote had been altered.

 

The first quote was cut down too ! nobody cares about the first quote though right ?

I still maintain the meaning was not altered in any way and a link was provided for the interview so people can watch the whole thing for themselves.

 

 

Also, the context would have been that they had just looked at some results from frame rating an AMD dual GPU solution, nVidia-guy then went on to briefly summarize techniques to improve frame rating. They had actually moved on from the question of why nVidia hadn't talked about frame rating before.

How's that different from what's in the OP ?

[afa7336]

The first quote was cut down too ! nobody cares about the first quote though right ?

I still maintain the meaning was not altered in any way and a link was provided for the interview so people can watch the whole thing for themselves.

 

 

How's that different from what's in the OP ?

 

When you alter text without stating it in a plain way, this is what tends to happen. Reporters actually have a way to show it whether it is brackets ([]) or dots (....) to show that part of the text is missing. This is done to allow readers to understand that text is missing. But misquoting a quote, this badly, does hurt. It did take it out of context, having looked at the video, the way you put it, and the way it was said is totally different.

[GPUXPert]

When you alter text without stating it in a plain way, this is what tends to happen. Reporters actually have a way to show it whether it is brackets ([]) or dots (....) to show that part of the text is missing. This is done to allow readers to understand that text is missing. But misquoting a quote, this badly, does hurt. It did take it out of context, having looked at the video, the way you put it, and the way it was said is totally different.

 

• By the way I want you to know one thing, since we're working on quality rather than raw frame rate that's probably one of the major reasons that we're out talking to people at all.  Because the thing that I want to make sure doesn’t happen is we go off and make our quality experience fantastic, and people don’t get  to really understand it, then effectively we're kind of falling behind on the space race for raw frame rate & that's another major reason why we're talking.

• By the way I want to you to know a thing, since we're working on quality rather than frame rate that's probably one of the major reasons why we're out talking to people at all. And people don't get to really understand it then effectively we're kind of falling behind on the space race for frame rate & that's another major reason why we're talking.

   

  Can you honestly say that these have completely different meanings ?