Study Shows Ontario Middle Schoolers are Among the Best in Computer Literacy

[dalekphalm]

What I was going for was a spectrum where people can be more or less tech competent. Tech enthusiasts are obviously the most tech competent and there should be an option for being that level of tech competence. I also listed off stuff that an AVERAGE person SHOULD know to use a computer. (ie: file structures, installing/uninstalling stuff, avoiding viruses, etc.) I would expect most people to not pass that test but as long as they don't get a zero they will demonstrate a level of tech competence. I was going for a test that demonstrates tech competence in a way where it can be plotted on a spectrum not a test that either shows tech competence or not. I hate tests that end up treating a person as though they either know everything or know nothing. As though there was no middle ground.

Except that the study does exactly what you say: Provides a spectrum. There are scores. Obviously, with Ontario Schools scoring highest, that means the average student is better. But many students probably scored very low, such as under 300 points. Those students are likely computer illiterate (or potentially have some sort of learning disability).

 

I'm sure that any one of the students who scored high 500's on the study probably DOES know about basic file system structure, installing/uninstalling stuff, and avoiding viruses.

 

Besides, the study was about computer literacy, which is NOT the same thing as being competent at computer tech. My friend, we are the 1%, and we will always be that way.

[LAwLz]

-snip-

I noticed you didn't include anything about programming in your test. Would I be wrong in assuming that you didn't include it because you don't know it yourself?

You can't just list a bunch of things you know and say "this is what everyone should know".

[Unhelpful]

I noticed you didn't include anything about programming in your test. Would I be wrong in assuming that you didn't include it because you don't know it yourself?

You can't just list a bunch of things you know and say "this is what everyone should know".

☐ rekt ☐ not rekt Tyrannosaurus rekt ☑

 

Also he may have far too high of an opinion of himself

[Beskamir]

I noticed you didn't include anything about programming in your test. Would I be wrong in assuming that you didn't include it because you don't know it yourself?

You can't just list a bunch of things you know and say "this is what everyone should know".

I thought about it but since Qain said he can only read it I decided to exclude it at the last minute. Also your right I personally don't have much experience either. Now that I think more about it I should have included it as being able to at least read it and of course more would equal better score on tech competence.

 

Except that the study does exactly what you say: Provides a spectrum. There are scores. Obviously, with Ontario Schools scoring highest, that means the average student is better. But many students probably scored very low, such as under 300 points. Those students are likely computer illiterate (or potentially have some sort of learning disability).

 

I'm sure that any one of the students who scored high 500's on the study probably DOES know about basic file system structure, installing/uninstalling stuff, and avoiding viruses.

 

Besides, the study was about computer literacy, which is NOT the same thing as being competent at computer tech. My friend, we are the 1%, and we will always be that way.

Fair enough. I guess the comparison could be made to being able to read a text and being able to look at the deeper meaning of a text. Most people can read a text and think awesome story but much fewer can see all the symbolism stuff that english teachers always go on about. Guess I was wrong then.

[Sharkyx1]

Testing here has to do with being able to effectively use a computer for things other than the computer itself, i wouldn't want my tax money going into the ontario schoolboard teaching kids how to install windows or overclock CPUs, as those things are easy and one google away, now, if someone at 13 can't use a computer to do what they need then there is a problem.

 

Then again the schooling system is severly lacking here, i have taken 2 computer science courses in university so far, and i can barely get passed the puddle thin ability to do printfs, scans, and simple loops.

[LAwLz]

I thought about it but since Qain said he can only read it I decided to exclude it at the last minute. Also your right I personally don't have much experience either. Now that I think more about it I should have included it as being able to at least read it and of course more would equal better score on tech competence.

Not sure what you mean by being able to read it. If you know how to read you know how to write as well. A lot of times it might actually be easier to write it yourself than to read it.

 

If Qain says he can read code but not write it then my guess is that he can't actually read it. He can look at the comments in the code and guess what it does. That's not reading though, that's guessing. It's like saying you can read Japanese because you can look at the images in the manga and figure out roughly what's going on. It's not reading until you understand what the words mean and how they tie together. Once you can do that you should have enough knowledge to also write.

 

On top of that, I'd say that it's more important to know how to write code. It's kind of like how building a computer is more important than being able to take it apart. Just taking it apart/reading code won't do you any good by itself.

[Beskamir]

Not sure what you mean by being able to read it. If you know how to read you know how to write as well. A lot of times it might actually be easier to write it yourself than to read it.

 

If Qain says he can read code but not write it then my guess is that he can't actually read it. He can look at the comments in the code and guess what it does. That's not reading though, that's guessing. It's like saying you can read Japanese because you can look at the images in the manga and figure out roughly what's going on. It's not reading until you understand what the words mean and how they tie together. Once you can do that you should have enough knowledge to also write.

 

On top of that, I'd say that it's more important to know how to write code. It's kind of like how building a computer is more important than being able to take it apart. Just taking it apart/reading code won't do you any good by itself.

Oh the things I do for you people. Anyways here's where he says that: http://youtu.be/PuF_VHyJ4nQ?t=25m6s

Personally my coding abilities right now are basically the equivalent of being able to take existing code and adding/subtracting stuff that I think should make it do what I want it to do. Qain sounds like he can actually find errors in other people's code (something I don't think I could do) but he still cannot write it.

[LAwLz]

Oh the things I do for you people. Anyways here's where he says that: http://youtu.be/PuF_VHyJ4nQ?t=25m6s

Personally my coding abilities right now are basically the equivalent of being able to take existing code and adding/subtracting stuff that I think should make it do what I want it to do. Qain sounds like he can actually find errors in other people's code (something I don't think I could do) but he still cannot write it.

But that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying you can correct peoples' grammar but you don't know how to write something yourself.

If you know how to debug someone's code, you have to know how to write stuff yourself.

 

I don't trust anything Qain says. He has shown far too many times that he don't actually know what he is talking about. In some video he was recommending 5GHz WiFI to people who needed extra penetration power. It was not just a slip up either, he said it over and over again. That's like wireless networking 101. 5GHz has less penetrating power than 2.4GHz.

His explanation of routing tables with IPv6 was wrong and really cringe worthy as well.

[cubercaleb]

But that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying you can correct peoples' grammar but you don't know how to write something yourself.

If you know how to debug someone's code, you have to know how to write stuff yourself.

 

I don't trust anything Qain says. He has shown far too many times that he don't actually know what he is talking about. In some video he was recommending 5GHz WiFI to people who needed extra penetration power. It was not just a slip up either, he said it over and over again. That's like wireless networking 101. 5GHz has less penetrating power than 2.4GHz.

His explanation of routing tables with IPv6 was wrong and really cringe worthy as well.

What do you expect from a channel full of tinfoil hat conspirators?

[Beskamir]

But that doesn't make any sense. That's like saying you can correct peoples' grammar but you don't know how to write something yourself.

If you know how to debug someone's code, you have to know how to write stuff yourself.

 

I don't trust anything Qain says. He has shown far too many times that he don't actually know what he is talking about. In some video he was recommending 5GHz WiFI to people who needed extra penetration power. It was not just a slip up either, he said it over and over again. That's like wireless networking 101. 5GHz has less penetrating power than 2.4GHz.

His explanation of routing tables with IPv6 was wrong and really cringe worthy as well.

I believe what Qain meant is that he knows a good amount of the basics and can guess at what stuff does but cannot just sit down and write his own code since he doesn't know all of the commands that are needed.

 

Also with 5GHz wifi vs 2.4GHz maybe he was meaning it in a heavy interference area? Less people have 5GHz than 2.4GHz so it could help in specific circumstances. But your right 5GHz has terrible range, I attributed it to my terrible router which at this point is basically just a wifi access point without considering it inherit to 5GHz when I first noticed it. Maybe I just don't know enough about networking but thus far everything Qain said helped me out. For example his narration for installing and setting up pfsense was good enough since it worked for me in the end.

[Xorbot]

It's really hard to say "Canada" when only Ontario students were involved.

 

It's mostly accurate, though.  Even if @LinusTech and @Slick won't admit it, Ontario is truly the only important province in Canada anyway.

[LAwLz]

I believe what Qain meant is that he knows a good amount of the basics and can guess at what stuff does but cannot just sit down and write his own code since he doesn't know all of the commands that are needed.

But if he don't know all the commands, how can he debug other peoples' code? Again, this is like saying you don't know English but you can correct other peoples' grammar.

 

 

Also with 5GHz wifi vs 2.4GHz maybe he was meaning it in a heavy interference area? Less people have 5GHz than 2.4GHz so it could help in specific circumstances. But your right 5GHz has terrible range, I attributed it to my terrible router which at this point is basically just a wifi access point without considering it inherit to 5GHz when I first noticed it. Maybe I just don't know enough about networking but thus far everything Qain said helped me out. For example his narration for installing and setting up pfsense was good enough since it worked for me in the end.

No, he even puts emphasis on it having more penetration power and later implies that it will have better range.

Just look at the video. He doesn't even mention that 5GHz has less interference, probably because he didn't know that at the time.

I also love how Logan later chips in saying that you should put your router on a shelf because the wireless signals descend, and Qain just agrees with him.

[dalekphalm]

It's mostly accurate, though.  Even if @LinusTech and @Slick won't admit it, Ontario is truly the only important province in Canada anyway.

Not to mention that Ontario is by far.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population

 

There are about 33.5 Million people living in Canada.

 

Ontario has about 12.8 Million, which is just over 38% of the entire country. The next closest is Quebec, at just under 8 Million. That's kind of a huge difference!

 

Take British Columbia (BC), where @LinusTech and @Slick lives. BC has less than 4.5 Million population.

 

So while the other provinces are very important, its inevitable that Ontario is the most publicly talked about province.

[dalekphalm]

I believe what Qain meant is that he knows a good amount of the basics and can guess at what stuff does but cannot just sit down and write his own code since he doesn't know all of the commands that are needed.

 

Also with 5GHz wifi vs 2.4GHz maybe he was meaning it in a heavy interference area? Less people have 5GHz than 2.4GHz so it could help in specific circumstances. But your right 5GHz has terrible range, I attributed it to my terrible router which at this point is basically just a wifi access point without considering it inherit to 5GHz when I first noticed it. Maybe I just don't know enough about networking but thus far everything Qain said helped me out. For example his narration for installing and setting up pfsense was good enough since it worked for me in the end.

 

 

But if he don't know all the commands, how can he debug other peoples' code? Again, this is like saying you don't know English but you can correct other peoples' grammar.

 

 

No, he even puts emphasis on it having more penetration power and later implies that it will have better range.

Just look at the video. He doesn't even mention that 5GHz has less interference, probably because he didn't know that at the time.

I also love how Logan later chips in saying that you should put your router on a shelf because the wireless signals descend, and Qain just agrees with him.

Yeah seriously. Coming from someone who has plenty of basic coding knowledge, you either can or you can't.

 

You can start to learn Pseudocode or the basics, but if so, you CANNOT read or debug full programs. I watched the few seconds of that video link, and Qain sounds like such Bullshit. I don't believe he can debug or modify what he says at all.

[Beskamir]

But if he don't know all the commands, how can he debug other peoples' code? Again, this is like saying you don't know English but you can correct other peoples' grammar.

 

 

No, he even puts emphasis on it having more penetration power and later implies that it will have better range.

Just look at the video. He doesn't even mention that 5GHz has less interference, probably because he didn't know that at the time.

I also love how Logan later chips in saying that you should put your router on a shelf because the wireless signals descend, and Qain just agrees with him.

Oh dear. He actually does imply it has better penetration power... That's just wrong. Hopefully he has learned the truth since then. I mean everyone says and does stupid stuff in their life but the important thing is if they are willing to educate themselves. As for wireless signals descending that's just stupid since even if EMR was significantly affected by the earth's gravity in the case of transmitting data it goes in both directions.

 

Although since the area covered is a sphere (pretty sure that's right) so you're essentially wasting the maximum distance if you don't have a receiver on the same level as the router. Also from a physics stand point you could place the router near a body of water and theoretically get better range

[LAwLz]

We should probably leave networking and programming now. Don't want to derail the thread even more =)

 

Congratulations to the students in Ontario. Even if the test was simple, a 91% score is still good. It would be interesting to see which questions most people got wrong.

[YellowDragon]

Jeeze I mean I don't feel old at 21 but damn, at their ages I was writing programs in VB and C and had built my own PC by age 10. Saving a document and modifying information is considered advanced? Damn has the bar really sunken that low?

 

With the one line it mentioned boys being confident in creating a website or a program.......hmmm I bet you any money it was visual based where your hand is held through a wizard tool and not actually touching a line of HTML for a website and not even touching a programming language for creating a program.

 

My worst fear is that computers become black boxes that no one can understand and with crap like this that nightmare is coming true.

[dalekphalm]

Jeeze I mean I don't feel old at 21 but damn, at their ages I was writing programs in VB and C and had built my own PC by age 10. Saving a document and modifying information is considered advanced? Damn has the bar really sunken that low?

 

With the one line it mentioned boys being confident in creating a website or a program.......hmmm I bet you any money it was visual based where your hand is held through a wizard tool and not actually touching a line of HTML for a website and not even touching a programming language for creating a program.

 

My worst fear is that computers become black boxes that no one can understand and with crap like this that nightmare is coming true.

I don't understand opinions like yours.

 

This study wasn't on Computer Science students... this was on ALL STUDENTS. Do you really expect a student not taking computer science to know a damn thing about coding in VB or C? Or any other programming for that matter? That's completely unreasonable to expect.

 

This study was measuring general computer literacy among all students, not technical competence among computer science students. Computers have always been "black boxes that no one can understand" to the general public. If anything, computers have become much easier to understand and that knowledge is far more widespread now then it was say in the 80's or 90's.

 

Some of the replies here are a bit baffling.

[YellowDragon]

I don't understand opinions like yours.

 

This study wasn't on Computer Science students... this was on ALL STUDENTS. Do you really expect a student not taking computer science to know a damn thing about coding in VB or C? Or any other programming for that matter? That's completely unreasonable to expect.

 

This study was measuring general computer literacy among all students, not technical competence among computer science students. Computers have always been "black boxes that no one can understand" to the general public. If anything, computers have become much easier to understand and that knowledge is far more widespread now then it was say in the 80's or 90's.

 

Some of the replies here are a bit baffling.

 

I may be a computer science student but I grew up with programming and software, I was writing small programs at their ages. I picked it all up on my own with a basic dial up connection, the internet has only gotten more accessible and easier to use. I think there is no excuse for not having a more in depth view of computers.

 

  My  K - 12 Schools did not offer anything in the realm of computers. I personally think EVERYONE should at least know some programming, it not only gives you a fundamental basis on how a computer works but it also teaches you how to THINK in a clear logical manner... step by step, no shortcuts, take things into account before doing them.

[LAwLz]

I may be a computer science student but I grew up with programming and software, I was writing small programs at their ages. I picked it all up on my own with a basic dial up connection, the internet has only gotten more accessible and easier to use. I think there is no excuse for not having a more in depth view of computers.

 

  My  K - 12 Schools did not offer anything in the realm of computers. I personally think EVERYONE should at least know some programming, it not only gives you a fundamental basis on how a computer works but it also teaches you how to THINK in a clear logical manner... step by step, no shortcuts, take things into account before doing them.

I agree, but middle school is probably too early if you ask me. Mandatory programming in high school would be pretty good though. It really helps with logical thinking and problem solving.

Nothing advanced. Just the basics.

[sannukas0016]

 I personally think EVERYONE should at least know some programming, it not only gives you a fundamental basis on how a computer works but it also teaches you how to THINK in a clear logical manner... step by step, no shortcuts, take things into account before doing them.

Making all students learn programming is unnecessary. Just because you like programming doesn't mean everyone does. That would add even more useless stuff to school program that people never use.

[dalekphalm]

Making all students learn programming is unnecessary. Just because you like programming doesn't mean everyone does. That would add even more useless stuff to school program that people never use.

Exactly. If you decide to become, say, a firefighter, or a millwright, then knowing computer programming will not help your life or career.

 

It's all well and good to say that programming helps build analytical thinking and logical reasoning skills - and it's not wrong to say so - but for everyone who has no interest in programming or IT, it's a complete waste of time and resources. All that time spent teaching people programming who don't want to learn it could be spent towards better base mathematics or science skills, or even basic English/Grammatical skills. We all know that the average person doesn't have the greatest grasp of the subtleties of grammar.

 

There's only a finite amount of time a student has to take classes, and wasting it on unnecessary mandatory programming classes is just senseless.

 

@YellowDragon should you be forced to take mandatory Piano lessons (as an example) in school simply because musicians feel that it is worthy to learn? No. It should be optional, just like programming.