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VPN over a VPN?

BuckGup
By BuckGup
in Networking
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Can you use a VPN while being connected to another VPN?

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Assuming you're connecting to a machine and then connecting that to another VPN then yes, assuming it has enough network interfaces to bind to.

PC Specs - AMD Ryzen 7 5800X3D - MSI B550M Mortar - 32GB Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR4-3600 @ CL16 - ASRock RX7800XT - 660p 1TBGB & Crucial P5 1TB - Fractal Define Mini C - CM V750v2 - Windows 11 Pro

 

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Apparently it is possible, but results in quite a speed loss.

https://www.bestvpn.com/chaining-vpn-servers-double-vpn/

Crystal: CPU: i7 7700K | Motherboard: Asus ROG Strix Z270F | RAM: GSkill 16 GB@3200MHz | GPU: Nvidia GTX 1080 Ti FE | Case: Corsair Crystal 570X (black) | PSU: EVGA Supernova G2 1000W | Monitor: Asus VG248QE 24"

Laptop: Dell XPS 13 9370 | CPU: i5 10510U | RAM: 16 GB

Server: CPU: i5 4690k | RAM: 16 GB | Case: Corsair Graphite 760T White | Storage: 19 TB

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"Tor"

PSU Nerd | PC Parts Flipper | Cable Management Guru

Helpful Links: PSU Tier List | Why not group reg? | Avoid the EVGA G3

Helios EVO (Main Desktop) Intel Core™ i9-10900KF | 32GB DDR4-3000 | GIGABYTE Z590 AORUS ELITE | GeForce RTX 3060 Ti | NZXT H510 | EVGA G5 650W

 

Delta (Laptop) | Galaxy S21 Ultra | Pacific Spirit XT (Server)

Full Specs

Spoiler

 

Helios EVO (Main):

Intel Core™ i9-10900KF | 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws V / Team T-Force DDR4-3000 | GIGABYTE Z590 AORUS ELITE | MSI GAMING X GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8GB GPU | NZXT H510 | EVGA G5 650W | MasterLiquid ML240L | 2x 2TB HDD | 256GB SX6000 Pro SSD | 3x Corsair SP120 RGB | Fractal Design Venturi HF-14

 

Pacific Spirit XT - Server

Intel Core™ i7-8700K (Won at LTX, signed by Dennis) | GIGABYTE Z370 AORUS GAMING 5 | 16GB Team Vulcan DDR4-3000 | Intel UrfpsgonHD 630 | Define C TG | Corsair CX450M

 

Delta - Laptop

ASUS TUF Dash F15 - Intel Core™ i7-11370H | 16GB DDR4 | RTX 3060 | 500GB NVMe SSD | 200W Brick | 65W USB-PD Charger

 


 

Intel is bringing DDR4 to the mainstream with the Intel® Core™ i5 6600K and i7 6700K processors. Learn more by clicking the link in the description below.

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Quite paranoid aren’t you? What would the use be for that?

Main System: Phobos

AMD Ryzen 7 2700 (8C/16T), ASRock B450 Steel Legend, 16GB G.SKILL Aegis DDR4 3000MHz, AMD Radeon RX 570 4GB (XFX), 960GB Crucial M500, 2TB Seagate BarraCuda, Windows 10 Pro for Workstations/macOS Catalina

 

Secondary System: York

Intel Core i7-2600 (4C/8T), ASUS P8Z68-V/GEN3, 16GB GEIL Enhance Corsa DDR3 1600MHz, Zotac GeForce GTX 550 Ti 1GB, 240GB ADATA Ultimate SU650, Windows 10 Pro for Workstations

 

Older File Server: Yet to be named

Intel Pentium 4 HT (1C/2T), Intel D865GBF, 3GB DDR 400MHz, ATI Radeon HD 4650 1GB (HIS), 80GB WD Caviar, 320GB Hitachi Deskstar, Windows XP Pro SP3, Windows Server 2003 R2

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1 hour ago, JDE said:

"Tor"

AKA run by the government now days

1 hour ago, Jamiec1130 said:

Quite paranoid aren’t you? What would the use be for that?

I was just wondering if it is feasible without extra setup.

48 minutes ago, mynameisjuan said:

I dont understand your secrecy or why you focus so much on VPNs.  

Honestly I am just curious and and seeing ways to protect yourself online

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Yes but will likely run in to MTU issues and poor performance, if you don't care about performance then sure.

If you believe that the end point of the VPN may be monitoring your activities, then use an encrypted SSH tunnel to a Linux target on the outside end of the VPN tunnel.  Saves having to deal with further performance issues.

Please quote or tag me if you need a reply

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1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

Yeah but one VPN is enough. Trust me, hiding your traffic is the least of your problems. VPN+Tor is pretty much untraceable. 

The way I see it even if you are using AES256, with 4096bit keys, and TLS1.2 someone can easily go to the VPS provider and then they have your IP and you are done. What I was thinking is using a free VPN that way the same IP shows up a couple hundred to a thousand times so it's much harder to trace. Then if they go deeper they will be hit with another VPN which will be harder to trace. Tor+VPN is basically asking for 1Kb/s but I guess it would be pretty secure. Maybe Tor+VPN+VPN in a coffee shop 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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5 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

The way I see it even if you are using AES256, with 4096bit keys, and TLS1.2 someone can easily go to the VPS provider and then they have your IP and you are done. What I was thinking is using a free VPN that way the same IP shows up a couple hundred to a thousand times so it's much harder to trace. Then if they go deeper they will be hit with another VPN which will be harder to trace. Tor+VPN is basically asking for 1Kb/s but I guess it would be pretty secure. Maybe Tor+VPN+VPN in a coffee shop 

Why would they go through all that trouble? What exactly are you trying to hide? You do know IPs are generally useless right? That situation is unrealistic. 

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1 minute ago, mynameisjuan said:

Why would they go through all that trouble? What exactly are you trying to hide? You do know IPs are generally useless right? That situation is unrealistic. 

I am just thinking in hypothetical way to be 99% secure. If they got your IP then they could easily go to your ISP and they won't hesitate to spill the beans on names, address, and so on

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

I am just thinking in hypothetical way to be 99% secure. If they got your IP then they could easily go to your ISP and they won't hesitate to spill the beans on names, address, and so on

Who will go to the ISP? And no they wont, they never give out info. Also when you have an IP you cant just say oh heres my IP, now give me my info because most the time is DHCP and tracing back an IP to a physical port is not a simple process. 

 

Again, this is completely nonsensical and will only stir up paranoia. VPN+Tor is the most security you need.  

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Yes, you can encapsulate a VPN tunnel into another VPN tunnel. But for clarification, Somebody is still going to know your IP address, a general rule in networking, in order for you to send data, and receive data back again (basically a requirement for TCP), somebody in the Internet will have your home routers unique global IP address which in this case is the VPN service provider that you are tunneling to first.

 

All a VPN does is take your normal IP unencrypted (ie cleartext or readable without the cipher key) header (includes your source and destination IP addresses) and Data Payload (can be encrypted or not depending on the data), and encrypts both of them, In order for you to remain reachable, this encrypted data is encapsulated by the VPN protocol and gets a new header that is still has your Source IP address but the destination remains consistently the VPN service providers routers. This tunnel effectively hides what your actually searching for (aka the destination IPs) All the ISP can see is a data stream from your home router to the VPN provider's, and that the payload is encrypted so they cant sniff what it is. 

 

Once your encrypted data hits the VPN provider, their routers/servers decrypt the stream, and using a network address translation system, remove your source address and put their own router IP address as the source instead, these session translations are only stored as the session is in progress, and forgotten as it ends (If they don't log it that is). This effectively makes all your traffic look like its sourced from the VPN provider. This basically means, that if their shady, they can log your sessions, and know exactly what you have been doing. Non shady providers try not to log their users traffic, however if a government agency or hacker group get access to their servers as sessions are running you can still be tracked.

 

You can encrypt your data over and over again through multiple providers in theory (besides the aforementioned MTU size exceeding problems already mentioned, but can be worked around), but it's whoever you send your data to first that matters most. Personally I advocate VPNs, as ISPs are basically pond scum, who both charge us to use their network, and then data mine your traffic (to sell for more profit). It should be one or the other not both. Or when I'm using public networks, which are generally not very secure.

 

Using VPNs for illicit or illegal activities however, lets just say legitimate VPN providers cant protect that kinda user as they bound local laws where they are housed and watched by government agencies, so it will violate their TOS policies (so your right to privacy is void), and they couldn't operate otherwise (Tunnel Bear is a good example, as they block the ports for P2P torrents, in exchange the Canadian government protects their user's right to privacy and TB doesn't have to log traffic, at least it's what is claimed). VPN providers who do operate outside the law where they are housed or just housed in places with little or no oversight, have no incentive to protect their users privacy, 

 

TLDR-

Can it be done? Yes, with some caveats

Should It be done? Not really, just overkill for a normal person who wants privacy on the internet.            

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IMO you probably only need a VPN that doesn't log, at the most you could have a VPN running on your PC, and then have a VM that's running another VPN session. I have done that plenty before, but mostly because I was using a VPN on the host anyway, and forgot that I was running it on there and started a new session on the VM... nothing dodgy going on, just like my privacy FWIW.

If you're using a VPN that doesn't log, and really doesn't log, then you shouldn't have anything to worry about because unless someone somehow got equipment into the VPNs servers without them knowing, they (the entity that's  snooping) wouldn't be able to pull any logs of who was connected to what, even if they trace your IP to their servers... all they would know is that you DO use a VPN, but they'd be able to tell that anyway.

Please quote my post, or put @paddy-stone if you want me to respond to you.

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