Dear Linus, Not all phones with removable batteries are "fat"

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Cinnabar Sonar said:

Not liking THICC phones...

real phones have curves honey

[Drak3]

56 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Besides putting them side to side, the bezel vs bezel less designs, the design w/o the bezel will always look thinner via optical illusion...

I can attest to that, my Note 4, Lumia 950XL, and Xperia ZX Premium are all roughly the same physical size, but the ZX looks like it dwarfs both due to its ~5.5" display vs the 5.7" on the Lumia and Note.

 

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

Who cares about thickness anyway. I have never seen anyone in a phone shop with a pair of calipers and I am pretty sure no one can tell one phone is .5mm thicker than another even if they are holding both phones at the same time. 

I can't tell the 1.1mm thicker Galaxy S4 apart from the Salaxy S6 (or the 1.2mm thicker Galaxy S8 for that matter) if I'm not fingering the edge or the camera.

[Skanky Sylveon]

21 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Should have put a penny for safe measures  Unless you're in Canada who's about to remove the Nickel as well...

I don't have change lying around.  How about a micro SD card?

28 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Speaking as someone who works with timber (building staircases in my spare time) and steel (build trailers in my spare time), I work with tolerances of less than 1mm all the time. Because if I don't the end result is going to be an illegal and ugly staircase or a trailer that crab walks down the road.   I can assure you even experienced tradesmen like me can't feel that difference. unless the two surfaces are touching and I can feel across both (can't do that with a curved phone).

I commonly do CAD work for 3D printing.

I make wind instruments, as well as many objects with threaded parts, or are meant to go on an existing threaded piece, such as plumbing.

 

I commonly work with small measurements, and I can't really tell much of a difference when it comes to a few millimeters.

[Sniperfox47]

I don't get where everyone seems to be getting things but if you maintain the exact same form factor a phone with a removable battery *will* inherently give up some of its girth for that...

 

When you have a removable battery you need the body sealed underneath, and that metal or plastic has thickness. If you want to keep it water tight you need a gasket which adds thickness. You need a sealing mechanism which may not add girth but does take up valuable real estate.

 

Fact of the matter is that with two otherwise identical phones, having a removable battery is a tradeoff of girth, you're either adding girth or cutting down on something like board thickness, thickness of the screen, or thickness of heat conduits. And in addition it adds considerable complexity to the design of the phone.

 

If you'd like a thicker phone that's fine. I wouldn't mind one too. But that doesn't change the fact that they're not wrong. A phone with a removable battery *is* thicker than an otherwise identical phone that doesn't have one.

[michaelocarroll007]

3 hours ago, Sniperfox47 said:

I don't get where everyone seems to be getting things but if you maintain the exact same form factor a phone with a removable battery *will* inherently give up some of its girth for that...

 

When you have a removable battery you need the body sealed underneath, and that metal or plastic has thickness. If you want to keep it water tight you need a gasket which adds thickness. You need a sealing mechanism which may not add girth but does take up valuable real estate.

 

Fact of the matter is that with two otherwise identical phones, having a removable battery is a tradeoff of girth, you're either adding girth or cutting down on something like board thickness, thickness of the screen, or thickness of heat conduits. And in addition it adds considerable complexity to the design of the phone.

 

If you'd like a thicker phone that's fine. I wouldn't mind one too. But that doesn't change the fact that they're not wrong. A phone with a removable battery *is* thicker than an otherwise identical phone that doesn't have one.

YEP

 

Everyone is comparing phones with different Motherboards Screen Sizes Internals ect. a 4" and 6 " phone at the same thickness are not the same Internal Size. ECT ECT. also not every single company has the same team designing the phone its made up of different employees and such.  the only way to tell a phone Wouldnt be thicker if it had a battery is be on the design team of that specific phone. There typically is 2 Backs and Battery placement will differe due to the Removable part. its likely to be thicker but not guaranteed obviously. 

 

Everyone here says they would love the bigger and thicker phones as its not noticeable but almost no smartphone companies make Money. Its a rough Business. They try to compete and beat each others specs and just because you might not care some look at the Thickness spec. Most people also wont notice a difference in day to day tasks of a SD 835 and 845 but that wont stop people from recommending the SD845 phone over the SD835 and 4,6, or 8GB of ram in the phone and many other tiny differences get compared but barley affect 95% of the buyers. 

[Egg-Roll]

3 hours ago, Sniperfox47 said:

I don't get where everyone seems to be getting things but if you maintain the exact same form factor a phone with a removable battery *will* inherently give up some of its girth for that...

 

When you have a removable battery you need the body sealed underneath, and that metal or plastic has thickness. If you want to keep it water tight you need a gasket which adds thickness. You need a sealing mechanism which may not add girth but does take up valuable real estate.

 

Fact of the matter is that with two otherwise identical phones, having a removable battery is a tradeoff of girth, you're either adding girth or cutting down on something like board thickness, thickness of the screen, or thickness of heat conduits. And in addition it adds considerable complexity to the design of the phone.

 

If you'd like a thicker phone that's fine. I wouldn't mind one too. But that doesn't change the fact that they're not wrong. A phone with a removable battery *is* thicker than an otherwise identical phone that doesn't have one.

Yea... about that... LG seems to have defyed your logic...

 

Remember this phone is still thinner than the X

Then compare it to the V30

The internal design is the same, the only difference is waterproof rating. My LG Stylo 3 has the same design too.

 

Basically putting the blame of the thickness of a phone purely on removable batteries is a stupid idea.

 

thickness of phones is more speculative based on manufactures sheer will towards a product and current technology, it has nothing to do with removable batteries or not.

 

Adding waterproof isn't a bad idea for expensive phones, I won't disagree with that, if it makes phones with non-removable batteries so be it, but accusing removable batteries for the bulkiness of phones is a bad idea... All LG saved with removing the removable battery was .21mm, which might I remind you is hilariously unoticable.

 

10 minutes ago, michaelocarroll007 said:

 its likely to be thicker but not guaranteed obviously. 

But Linus is blaming the thickness on the removable batteries in the video...

 

15 minutes ago, michaelocarroll007 said:

but almost no smartphone companies make Money.

You buy that garbage? For smaller companies sure (maybe), but if no money is ever to be made why then are there chinese knock offs? Apple, Samsung and maybe LG and Sony are still making decent money to make investors happy and invest in future tech. Remember if a product isn't good for the company it's not good for the shareholders, so if they make little to no money they would stop doing it. It doesn't matter if you sell 100 million units, if your profit on a $1000 unit is only 1% or even 10% for that matter the investors will demand better results. Manufacturing a good is the cheapest end going, even if you spend 500 million on a new version every time in R&D if you sell 10 million units that's $50 per unit in R&D... 

 

People shouldn't listen to what everyone keeps saying because they heard it from a "reliable" source, seriously reps will tell you anything to make a sale, regardless if it's a lie or not. They will tell Linus that they lose money on phones to give the false ideology you're getting a steal at $1000... Whatever it takes to sell that one extra unit.

[Sniperfox47]

28 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Yea... about that... LG seems to have defyed your logic...

 

Remember this phone is still thinner than the X

Then compare it to the V30

The internal design is the same, the only difference is waterproof rating. My LG Stylo 3 has the same design too.

*Facepalm* did you watch those teardowns? In what world is that internal design even remotely similar? Particularly in terms of thermal design. Were you perhaps thinking a different phone and linked the wrong video?

 

Like they're not even in the same ballpark...

 

28 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

People shouldn't listen to what everyone keeps saying because they heard it from a "reliable" source, seriously reps will tell you anything to make a sale, regardless if it's a lie or not. They will tell Linus that they lose money on phones to give the false ideology you're getting a steal at $1000... Whatever it takes to sell that one extra unit.

And you should talk to an engineer who actually works on this stuff before drawing conclusions. I work with embedded electronics. I'm not a hardware engineer myself but I work with them quite frequently. I can tell you that the battery issue is nowhere near as simple as you're making it out to be, not 'because I heard it from a "reliable" source' but because I've had personal experience dealing with it.

[michaelocarroll007]

10 minutes ago, Egg-Roll said:

Yea... about that... LG seems to have defyed your logic...

 

Remember this phone is still thinner than the X

Then compare it to the V30

The internal design is the same, the only difference is waterproof rating. My LG Stylo 3 has the same design too.

 

Basically putting the blame of the thickness of a phone purely on removable batteries is a stupid idea.

 

thickness of phones is more speculative based on manufactures sheer will towards a product and current technology, it has nothing to do with removable batteries or not.

 

Adding waterproof isn't a bad idea for expensive phones, I won't disagree with that, if it makes phones with non-removable batteries so be it, but accusing removable batteries for the bulkiness of phones is a bad idea... All LG saved with removing the removable battery was .21mm, which might I remind you is hilariously unoticable.

 

But Linus is blaming the thickness on the removable batteries in the video...

 

You buy that garbage? For smaller companies sure (maybe), but if no money is ever to be made why then are there chinese knock offs? Apple, Samsung and maybe LG and Sony are still making decent money to make investors happy and invest in future tech. Remember if a product isn't good for the company it's not good for the shareholders, so if they make little to no money they would stop doing it. It doesn't matter if you sell 100 million units, if your profit on a $1000 unit is only 1% or even 10% for that matter the investors will demand better results. Manufacturing a good is the cheapest end going, even if you spend 500 million on a new version every time in R&D if you sell 10 million units that's $50 per unit in R&D... 

 

People shouldn't listen to what everyone keeps saying because they heard it from a "reliable" source, seriously reps will tell you anything to make a sale, regardless if it's a lie or not. They will tell Linus that they lose money on phones to give the false ideology you're getting a steal at $1000... Whatever it takes to sell that one extra unit.

 

So What your saying in your comparison they did have the non removable Battery phone be Thinner? you will never be able to actually Apples to apples compare unless your working on the design. Phones are way more complicated then your making them out to be.  and if its unnoticeable or not "Doesn't matter" it wont stop people from comparing specs sheets and what manuf can advertise ect.

 

As Upset as you might be People voted with there wallets and kept buying enclosed battery phones. LG was the only Manuf to create a new design that had a removable battery that didnt have to have a plastic flimsy back making the build quality suffer. Guess what the phone flopped. and everyone stopped wanting plastic backed removable phones. Metal & Glass High end feeling is what many wanted. 

 

Linus is saying it in the way Knowing Manufs want the most competitive smartphone and a Removable battery smartphone only puts them lower on the list for what just to be able to sell to 0.1% of niche consumers.  Making it harder to Compete with the high end looks feels Thickness Waterproofing ect. 

 

Buy that garbage? Apple and Samsung make crazy money with phones. But a lot of there competition does not. Shareholders dont always inveset in todays profits. Look at Amazon for year and years it lost money by trying to grow the buisness and not profit. People still invested into them based on what the future profits could hold if sucessful. Same with many other phone companies if HTC Sony LG and many more could sell units like apple or samsung the profits would be great. 

 

 

Sony Lost 550 Million dollars in 2015 and 2016  and only made 91 million in 2017  Pretty sure thats Negative a Billion dollars in the last 3 years and Smartphone sales have declined from them every year.  HTC had to sell to Google and hasnt made much in years . in  the last 8 Quarters LG has only made profit ONCE and it was barley squeaked in 9 Mil. 

 

"An official from the electronics industry said, "Only 10 out of 300 smartphone makers make profits. Apple is the sole leader in terms of profitability, while the market polarization has become more serious."

 

https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/26/lgs-mobile-business-cant-stop-losing-money/

https://www.androidcentral.com/sony-records-huge-net-profit-2015-even-mobile-sales-diminish 

https://www.androidauthority.com/sonys-mobile-division-made-money-768091/ 

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2017/06/apple-raked-in-834-of-smartphone-profits-in-q1-2017-while-samsung-sat-in-apples-shadow-at-129.html

 

 

[Egg-Roll]

11 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

*Facepalm* did you watch those teardowns? In what world is that internal design even remotely similar? Particularly in terms of thermal design. Were you perhaps thinking a different phone and linked the wrong video?

 

Like they're not even in the same ballpark...

 

And you should talk to an engineer who actually works on this stuff before drawing conclusions. I work with embedded electronics. I'm not a hardware engineer myself but I work with them quite frequently. I can tell you that the battery issue is nowhere near as simple as you're making it out to be, not 'because I heard it from a "reliable" source' but because I've had personal experience dealing with it.

I watched them but where are these thermal differences in design you speak of? I don't include the obvious design differences required/done due to it being a non-removable battery (the new wireless charging, the new assembly of the finger sensor, or the additional piece at the bottom for the speaker). Every model changes every year but the basic design of the LG V20 and V30 are in fact identical. The boards circuitry design is different, but that once again is to be expected, the board is basically the same size and design.

 

I've not studied anything to do with internal electronics since high school so while I am likely wrong about the board itself, I'm not talking about the actual design of the phone, I'm referring to the battery and the claimed bulkiness caused by it being removable. IF LG had moved the battery then there would be no argument now would there?

 

Ok, then you of all people should know better then to go running around claiming removable batteries make phones thicker then. However depending on your actual field of work you yourself might not know everything about the phone industry and using your industrial knowledge wrong.

 

 

Thermal dynamics can be solved with or without removable batteries additional features can be added with removable batteries that's why I looked past those. LG didn't redesign the board they added a few new features and moved a few around. This is about the fallacy of removable batteries causing bulk, which is clearly not the case in the V20 and many other phones. Most people won't notice the 1mm needed for the removable battery, what most companies will see tho is a reduction in sales of the next years model because why buy new when a new battery is only $50 and no extra costs? For that extra feature or 2? Maybe but who really cares when the current one still works perfectly fine?

 

4 minutes ago, michaelocarroll007 said:

Upset as you might be People voted with there wallets and kept buying enclosed battery phones. LG was the only Manuf to create a new design that had a removable battery that didnt have to have a plastic flimsy back making the build quality suffer. Guess what the phone flopped. and everyone stopped wanting plastic backed removable phones. Metal & Glass High end feeling is what many wanted. 

 

Linus is saying it in the way Knowing Manufs want the most competitive smartphone and a Removable battery smartphone only puts them lower on the list for what just to be able to sell to 0.1% of niche consumers.  Making it harder to Compete with the high end looks feels Thickness Waterproofing ect. 

Linus didn't say that, if he meant it, he said it wrong. I understand the customers voting with their pockets, I personally didn't buy the V20 for my LTE phone instead bought the Stylo 3, not for any other reason than looks and the stylus. To me the V20 looked ugly. However your factors as to why companies went to non-removable are more logical than thermal dynamics bs given above (they can be solved regardless of battery status), or even Linus's claiming "thinner". If clients want a nice glass finish and currently the only way of doing it is by making the battery non-removable, fine but don't put the blame on the removable battery...

 

11 minutes ago, michaelocarroll007 said:

Look at Amazon for year and years it lost money by trying to grow the buisness and not profit. People still invested into them based on what the future profits could hold if sucessful. Same with many other phone companies if HTC Sony LG and many more could sell units like apple or samsung the profits would be great. 

 

 

Sony Lost 550 Million dollars in 2015 and 2016  and only made 91 million in 2017  Pretty sure thats Negative a Billion dollars in the last 3 years and Smartphone sales have declined from them every year.  HTC had to sell to Google and hasnt made much in years . in  the last 8 Quarters LG has only made profit ONCE and it was barley squeaked in 9 Mil. 

 

"An official from the electronics industry said, "Only 10 out of 300 smartphone makers make profits. Apple is the sole leader in terms of profitability, while the market polarization has become more serious."

I figured Sony was losing money, the problem with Apple and Samsung are their push power in advertising... companies like LG and Sony don't have the push power, last time LG did push it failed(G5). Where Sony has closed their brand stores (at least in canada) Samsung and Apple keep opening them, LG has never opened a store afaik.

 

I invest my money into LG over Samsung because I think they have better quality products as not a single one has caused issues(less CD/DVD drives). Another issue is people flock to the flagships more now than ever, when in the past they were just that, expensive items to show the future of what's to come.

 

The issue is when people talk about phone companies not making money they do it in a way like you did, it makes people think "Oh Apple and Samsung don't make money", if people were not as dumb as to fall for simple gimmicks these profit issues for at least LG and Sony (possibly including others) wouldn't be so bad. It also doesn't help when places like LMG only ever focus on Sammy and a rotting apple after being bite only once and left in sunlight... Sammy has so much money to burn they alone where the sole sponsor of the WAN show last week...

 

Also just because companies like LG and Sony lose money, their investments go into other places or borrow from tech from other parts of the company. Those who do lose money keep doing so for reasons not disclosed, like maybe selling part of their tech at $5 per to Apple or Sammy, technically not in their mobile division

[michaelocarroll007]

1 hour ago, Egg-Roll said:

 

 

Linus didn't say that, if he meant it, he said it wrong. I understand the customers voting with their pockets, I personally didn't buy the V20 for my LTE phone instead bought the Stylo 3, not for any other reason than looks and the stylus. To me the V20 looked ugly. However your factors as to why companies went to non-removable are more logical than thermal dynamics bs given above (they can be solved regardless of battery status), or even Linus's claiming "thinner". If clients want a nice glass finish and currently the only way of doing it is by making the battery non-removable, fine but don't put the blame on the removable battery...

 

I figured Sony was losing money, the problem with Apple and Samsung are their push power in advertising... companies like LG and Sony don't have the push power, last time LG did push it failed(G5). Where Sony has closed their brand stores (at least in canada) Samsung and Apple keep opening them, LG has never opened a store afaik.

 

 

The issue is when people talk about phone companies not making money they do it in a way like you did, it makes people think "Oh Apple and Samsung don't make money", if people were not as dumb as to fall for simple gimmicks these profit issues for at least LG and Sony (possibly including others) wouldn't be so bad. It also doesn't help when places like LMG only ever focus on Sammy and a rotting apple after being bite only once and left in sunlight... Sammy has so much money to burn they alone where the sole sponsor of the WAN show last week...

 

Also just because companies like LG and Sony lose money, their investments go into other places or borrow from tech from other parts of the company. Those who do lose money keep doing so for reasons not disclosed, like maybe selling part of their tech at $5 per to Apple or Sammy, technically not in their mobile division

Yeah its a large List of reasons why Smartphones dont have removable batteries its not just Thinner or thermals but there on the list without a doubt.  Along with premium designs Easier to place battery how and where you need it. Cheaper and easier to waterproof and get higher ratings   But a tiny one as to why they should of kept them. 

 

You Laughed that i believed sony doesnt make money and many other companies dont either but then say you Didnt think they did aswell?  Sony as a full blown company does make money but untill the PS4 did amazing they were eating a shit ton of losses in so many parts of there businesses. LG and sony are huge companies that could Advertise just as hard considering at large both companies are massive they choose not too for there own internal reasons.

 

Not many people think Apple or Samsung are loosing money on phones selling at $1000.00 (Note 7 Excluded) but the s7 and s7edge sold very well to cover its losses there that year.  Apple is know for its record profits. they have an insane amount in cash reserves and hold the record for the most profit in any quarter of any company EVER.  Like i said 290 phone companies/ divisions loose money only 10 make money with apple and samsung accounting for 95% of the profits.  most of the other companies dont sell much Our side of the world are oppo Vivo and Oneplus All 3 owned by the same mother company all 3 profitable. Hawauwei is another  

 

Companies continue for there own 1000s of reasons when loosing money.