dekstop ryzen 7 on a laptop for $1500, why is there no buzz over this thing?

[sicily428]

@General Winter

Linus tested a Clevo P870

 

 

[D2ultima]

21 hours ago, General Winter said:

so basically i was curious cause i remembered a rumor abouut ryzen notebook chips being in the works and i wanted to look at what info was available, i then stumbled across this thing (and at a surprisingly low price) which has great specs across the board with my only complaint is that it has the 4gb 580 instead of a 8gb 580 which isn't the end of the world when you have an octo core laptop

http://store.asus.com/us/item/201711AM170000001

 

 

but then i realized no one was taking about this thing and i have to ask why with everything it has at a really good price point compared to intel laptop cpus which always have i7 K or i7HK which don't competent with this (idk a solid i7 HK laptop around $1500, and even then it only has 4 cores)

No one's talking about it because it's garbage. Poorly cooled, terribly designed, loud, bulky, awful BIOS missing even selling points like VT support, slow RAM speed, terrible QC, QA, return/repair, etc service on top of all these issues. It's an ASUS, after all. Piss poor weak GPU downclocked to a bloody 980M performance. Why would anybody want this? It's not like it even lets the 8 core flourish. The P775TM1 is probably a significantly better unit; get it from a company that'll delid and set your 8700K to 4.5GHz+ and you pretty much have better performance already. 

21 hours ago, General Winter said:

im honestly wondering if i could swap the gpu out

 

i didn't take an opportunity to get a mobile 1080 for around $400 (it was ebay and no one was bidding on it, but i hadn't the money to burn on a gpu i couldn't use) but if i went back in time, got that and then this laptop; switched the gpu, it would be amazing assuming the cooling would be good for it which i can't say since i'd imagine you'd need more cooling for the cpu since its desktop grade

 

Nope, you cannot.

 

You could only use that 1080 in the unit it was made for. MSI has multiple 1080s that exist only for the units they were created for, and Clevo 1080s are I guess swappable then you'd be hard-pressed to buy one of them without getting one and have the proper heatsink etc to plop in. And the cooling is abhorrent. And LOUD.

21 hours ago, Theguywhobea said:

Yeah I guess you'd just need to be sure it was the same MXM version/form factor(?)  If that laptop even uses an MXM GPU.

Only Clevo and MSI use MXM, and only Clevo's cards follow any sort of standard across their MXM-equipped models (and even then, it's only Pascal models that have the standard... no Volta/ampere yet to see if it'd keep it and be upgrade-able).

21 hours ago, General Winter said:

its not because generally mobile cpu's are more energy efficent and easy to cool

 

but machines with dual 1080's and i7 HK processors get more press than this octo core workhorse; im honestly suprised linus hasn't done a review of this but got an imac pro for the 10gb/s ethernet port it had (i know he'll do a review on it and get his money back from that ) , point being if he can get that he can get the $1500 octo core laptop

Mobile CPUs can use less voltage and clock lower on average so they use less power, but they are no different from desktop CPUs except for being SIGNIFICANTLY slower, worse-binned, and more power limited. And soldered. And overpriced (6820HK/7820HK are nearly $400, more expensive than a 7700K which not only has its own PCB, but an IHS and solder pre-applied, which isn't free in production). The machines with dual 1080s and whatnot use the mobile CPUs because that's all there is to use... desktop CPUs require a good deal more R&D to adapt the desktop chipset for mobile, and companies generally don't care to spend the money for it. Clevo pretty much does it because sockets are their thing, their stuff is always swappable at the high end, and for business oriented units they've got desktop CPUs and no GPU as well.

1 hour ago, General Winter said:

why do most high end "gaming laptops" even use HK or HQ processors then, especially the acer 21x for instance, $9K laptop w/ an HK processor instead of a desktop cpu for its size and cooling power

 

also i've never seen any marketing for any laptop with a desktop cpu so i had no idea they existed (or thought of it surprisingly)

19 hours ago, General Winter said:

could you show me, i've actually never seen desktop CPU's in laptops besides the most absurdly bulky ones (im actually surprised the acer 21x doesn't have a desktop CPU for its massive size)

Because the 21x is an overpriced gimmick with such poor performance that overclocking the laptop gets something like 15% reduced performance than the unit I have in my signature running at stock. While costing basically twice as much. The bulk though could be reduced if people would actually try hard. The covfefe lake clevo LGA 1151 units actually have better cooling by a good margin than the last gens simply by making sure contact is there and separating the heatsinks. The fans could still be improved as could tolerance for contact, and probably shrink size and weight there too once done.

 

Marketing doesn't exist because the companies that have the money/care to do it (like OriginPC) know that the units shouldn't be used maxed out. I've called and spoken to both OriginPC and Falcon Northwest about their clevo rebrands, and I believe the falcon northwest guy recommended I take the 1070 and i5-7600K instead of a 1080 and 7700K so it doesn't sit at 100c all day... also both of them claim that 100c under load is perfectly within acceptable temp ranges. They look at an intel specsheet and tick off whatever is there. The fact that it's overclockable is useless. The fact that it's sold to be something that sustains high performance is null and void to them. If it doesn't thermally shut down, even if it's throttling its little tail off, they're fine with it. The smaller companies like HIDevolution that literally delid and use liquid metal between IHS and die and relid, and sell all their units with their CPUs at 4.7GHz minimum (at no added cost) on all i7 sales, don't have the money (or manpower to handle a great influx of buyers) to advertise like you'd see Dell or HP on TV or on the web. Websites like PCGamer or Laptopmag barely even touch the units or check reviews. No matter WHAT they do, they always end up with a Razer and an ASUS on the top, despite huge known problems with literally every one of their laptops except ASUS' flagship models (there's only one each generation, pretty much). You need to go looking, and ask around. It's like a little hidden community of people who know their units and know what they're talking about. And unfortunately almost every laptop needs work, or is just terrible. Acer's 21x is useless. Lost cause. Even if it cost 1/3 of its price, it'd just upgrade itself to a "terrible buy". In fact... a user took two MSI 1070Ns and shoved them into the 2012 Clevo P370EM laptop with a modded system BIOS and used a hardware programmer to modify the vBIOSes on the GPUs, and has a 120Hz screen in it with an i7-3940XM (yes, IVY BRIDGE). It beats the Acer 21x in benchmarks: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/clevo-overclockers-lounge.788975/page-1493#post-10658778

 

And every website is raving about the scores and performance and how it's overclockable! Look at its firestrike score for example, in my post under the one I linked directly to. Now take a look at my system which is stock except for my CPU being at 4.7GHz https://www.3dmark.com/fs/12320006

 

That's a literal +25% score over the 21x. And I didn't even do anything that could be slightly thought of like overclocking... though the Acer tests were overclocked, and PRAISED FOR BEING OVERCLOCKABLE. Overclock to inferiority. (By the way, no overclock mode sees a pitiful 32-33k GPU score in firestrike on the 21x... a single OC'd 1080Ti can easily ballpark it - https://www.3dmark.com/fs/14181112)

19 hours ago, General Winter said:

i think its meant more for a portable workstation vs. being a gaming laptop

That's funny, because if it were, it would have had high speed RAM support and had an 1800X option, as well as tuning support in the BIOS. It doesn't. As I said above, can't even use VT. It would also actually cool well. 

3 hours ago, General Winter said:

but whats wrong with the gpu particularly; amd cards are pretty power efficient compared to their nvedia counterparts (i don't know the exact specs off the top of my head so sure me if im wrong but the 580 hits the nail between powerful and power efficient from what i've heard)

The RX 580 is under 1100MHz MAX speed, it's 65W limited, it is terribly cooled, 85c+ easy in games, it won't overclock worth a monkey's meowmix at the rate it's currently going, and I've heard people saying things like how the VRMs will fail if the GPU sits at 65W flat for extended periods. I don't know how true that is, though, so take that with a solid grain of salt. The GPU also has minimal vRAM when a good point of the desktop ones is to have more. They misused the available space they had and it shows and they're not fixing it, because they're ASUS who cares, clearly.

 

[genexis_x]

7 hours ago, General Winter said:

snip

Nvidia Pascal is more energy efficient (not saying that RX GPUs aren't efficient, just not as efficient as Pascal), don't forget that RX580 has 180W TDP (reduced to ~75W in laptops, still runs hot). Also slightly lower performance than 1060 due to TDP and clock speed reduction

[IAmAndre]

Actually JayzTwoCents reviewed it a couple days ago and got super excited. Laptops are getting more interesting than regular desktops now. My next laptop will probably something like that. Here's Jayz's review: 

 

[General Winter]

6 hours ago, sicily428 said:

@General Winter

Linus tested a Clevo P870

 

 

he's reviewed so many dual 1080 laptops that this slipped my mind

[General Winter]

20 hours ago, D2ultima said:

No one's talking about it because it's garbage. Poorly cooled, terribly designed, loud, bulky, awful BIOS missing even selling points like VT support, slow RAM speed, terrible QC, QA, return/repair, etc service on top of all these issues. It's an ASUS, after all. Piss poor weak GPU downclocked to a bloody 980M performance. Why would anybody want this? It's not like it even lets the 8 core flourish. The P775TM1 is probably a significantly better unit; get it from a company that'll delid and set your 8700K to 4.5GHz+ and you pretty much have better performance already. 

Nope, you cannot.

 

You could only use that 1080 in the unit it was made for. MSI has multiple 1080s that exist only for the units they were created for, and Clevo 1080s are I guess swappable then you'd be hard-pressed to buy one of them without getting one and have the proper heatsink etc to plop in. And the cooling is abhorrent. And LOUD.

Only Clevo and MSI use MXM, and only Clevo's cards follow any sort of standard across their MXM-equipped models (and even then, it's only Pascal models that have the standard... no Volta/ampere yet to see if it'd keep it and be upgrade-able).

Mobile CPUs can use less voltage and clock lower on average so they use less power, but they are no different from desktop CPUs except for being SIGNIFICANTLY slower, worse-binned, and more power limited. And soldered. And overpriced (6820HK/7820HK are nearly $400, more expensive than a 7700K which not only has its own PCB, but an IHS and solder pre-applied, which isn't free in production). The machines with dual 1080s and whatnot use the mobile CPUs because that's all there is to use... desktop CPUs require a good deal more R&D to adapt the desktop chipset for mobile, and companies generally don't care to spend the money for it. Clevo pretty much does it because sockets are their thing, their stuff is always swappable at the high end, and for business oriented units they've got desktop CPUs and no GPU as well.

Because the 21x is an overpriced gimmick with such poor performance that overclocking the laptop gets something like 15% reduced performance than the unit I have in my signature running at stock. While costing basically twice as much. The bulk though could be reduced if people would actually try hard. The covfefe lake clevo LGA 1151 units actually have better cooling by a good margin than the last gens simply by making sure contact is there and separating the heatsinks. The fans could still be improved as could tolerance for contact, and probably shrink size and weight there too once done.

 

Marketing doesn't exist because the companies that have the money/care to do it (like OriginPC) know that the units shouldn't be used maxed out. I've called and spoken to both OriginPC and Falcon Northwest about their clevo rebrands, and I believe the falcon northwest guy recommended I take the 1070 and i5-7600K instead of a 1080 and 7700K so it doesn't sit at 100c all day... also both of them claim that 100c under load is perfectly within acceptable temp ranges. They look at an intel specsheet and tick off whatever is there. The fact that it's overclockable is useless. The fact that it's sold to be something that sustains high performance is null and void to them. If it doesn't thermally shut down, even if it's throttling its little tail off, they're fine with it. The smaller companies like HIDevolution that literally delid and use liquid metal between IHS and die and relid, and sell all their units with their CPUs at 4.7GHz minimum (at no added cost) on all i7 sales, don't have the money (or manpower to handle a great influx of buyers) to advertise like you'd see Dell or HP on TV or on the web. Websites like PCGamer or Laptopmag barely even touch the units or check reviews. No matter WHAT they do, they always end up with a Razer and an ASUS on the top, despite huge known problems with literally every one of their laptops except ASUS' flagship models (there's only one each generation, pretty much). You need to go looking, and ask around. It's like a little hidden community of people who know their units and know what they're talking about. And unfortunately almost every laptop needs work, or is just terrible. Acer's 21x is useless. Lost cause. Even if it cost 1/3 of its price, it'd just upgrade itself to a "terrible buy". In fact... a user took two MSI 1070Ns and shoved them into the 2012 Clevo P370EM laptop with a modded system BIOS and used a hardware programmer to modify the vBIOSes on the GPUs, and has a 120Hz screen in it with an i7-3940XM (yes, IVY BRIDGE). It beats the Acer 21x in benchmarks: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/clevo-overclockers-lounge.788975/page-1493#post-10658778

 

And every website is raving about the scores and performance and how it's overclockable! Look at its firestrike score for example, in my post under the one I linked directly to. Now take a look at my system which is stock except for my CPU being at 4.7GHz https://www.3dmark.com/fs/12320006

 

That's a literal +25% score over the 21x. And I didn't even do anything that could be slightly thought of like overclocking... though the Acer tests were overclocked, and PRAISED FOR BEING OVERCLOCKABLE. Overclock to inferiority. (By the way, no overclock mode sees a pitiful 32-33k GPU score in firestrike on the 21x... a single OC'd 1080Ti can easily ballpark it - https://www.3dmark.com/fs/14181112)

That's funny, because if it were, it would have had high speed RAM support and had an 1800X option, as well as tuning support in the BIOS. It doesn't. As I said above, can't even use VT. It would also actually cool well. 

The RX 580 is under 1100MHz MAX speed, it's 65W limited, it is terribly cooled, 85c+ easy in games, it won't overclock worth a monkey's meowmix at the rate it's currently going, and I've heard people saying things like how the VRMs will fail if the GPU sits at 65W flat for extended periods. I don't know how true that is, though, so take that with a solid grain of salt. The GPU also has minimal vRAM when a good point of the desktop ones is to have more. They misused the available space they had and it shows and they're not fixing it, because they're ASUS who cares, clearly.

 

so what would you say is the best work and/or gaming laptop for $1500

 

i figured a i7 7700hq cpu would be enough since i didn't know about any of these laptops (which so far it is, but i haven't gotten into the programming part of my classes, idk how it will or won't impair my abilities compared to something better, but everyone's laptop is HP since thats the schools default laptop so i don't think its that intensive) and with the extra money i was able to net a 1070 laptop w/ 60 hz G sync (though im bitting myself since i could've gotten a 120hz 1070 laptop if i waited a short bit longer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076CLPPQ4/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I30WP20HUP2SWF&colid=25H89Q9NV13MK&th=1)

 

as long as i can get temps healthy and get good performance on something i can put into my backpack thats what's important to me

[D2ultima]

4 hours ago, General Winter said:

so what would you say is the best work and/or gaming laptop for $1500

 

i figured a i7 7700hq cpu would be enough since i didn't know about any of these laptops (which so far it is, but i haven't gotten into the programming part of my classes, idk how it will or won't impair my abilities compared to something better, but everyone's laptop is HP since thats the schools default laptop so i don't think its that intensive) and with the extra money i was able to net a 1070 laptop w/ 60 hz G sync (though im bitting myself since i could've gotten a 120hz 1070 laptop if i waited a short bit longer https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076CLPPQ4/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I30WP20HUP2SWF&colid=25H89Q9NV13MK&th=1)

 

as long as i can get temps healthy and get good performance on something i can put into my backpack thats what's important to me

Clevo P650HS (Microcenter has them for ~$1300, 7700HQ/1070 can use 120Hz panel). Will probably need repasting. Don't buy 7820HK unit, the CPU won't overclock without a Prema mod which isn't available at the moment (and no ETA).

 

MSI GT62VR (all around the web like Amazon/Newegg). May need repaste. Should get Svet BIOS mod, should cost about $5.

 

Either unit will need some tweaking before you get "amazing temps and performance weee" so just be wary, it's not going to power on out the box and sit at 65c gaming at full tilt. Well the MSI might if it has a great paste job

[General Winter]

6 hours ago, D2ultima said:

Clevo P650HS (Microcenter has them for ~$1300, 7700HQ/1070 can use 120Hz panel). Will probably need repasting. Don't buy 7820HK unit, the CPU won't overclock without a Prema mod which isn't available at the moment (and no ETA).

 

MSI GT62VR (all around the web like Amazon/Newegg). May need repaste. Should get Svet BIOS mod, should cost about $5.

 

Either unit will need some tweaking before you get "amazing temps and performance weee" so just be wary, it's not going to power on out the box and sit at 65c gaming at full tilt. Well the MSI might if it has a great paste job

my laptop is the GT62VR actually, but its the 60hz G sync model instead of the 120hz mode, long story short i had to order replacements due to some bug, they spin fine when i spun them with air but made a noise like stratch and/or studder of sorts before dying out, so that ended up adding cost to my laptop, effectively killing any savings i originally perceived as getting (unless you add the value of the free backpack and oversized mousepad)

 

 

long story w/ link to other who had the same issue, but no one posted a real solution there

On 1/6/2018 at 7:08 PM, General Winter said:

i

apparently my laptop had this issue (which popped up shortly after my warranty died, my shit luck) in which the fans would just straight up die even though they physically move just fine, flat out replacing them seems to work but it killed any saving i got on that laptop https://forum-en.msi.com/index.php?topic=283511.0

 

and i could've gotten a 120 hz model for less than $100 more (during black friday, i was looking for a college laptop, but i like bulk but 15 inch form was really my only need) ; hell even right now there is a solid $1500 laptop with identical specs but with the 120 hz monitor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B076CLPPQ4/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=I30WP20HUP2SWF&colid=25H89Q9NV13MK&psc=1

 

i think my point was that i make unique regrettable mistakes that no one else seems to have

[D2ultima]

3 hours ago, General Winter said:

my laptop is the GT62VR actually, but its the 60hz G sync model instead of the 120hz mode, long story short i had to order replacements due to some bug, they spin fine when i spun them with air but made a noise like stratch and/or studder of sorts before dying out, so that ended up adding cost to my laptop, effectively killing any savings i originally perceived as getting (unless you add the value of the free backpack and oversized mousepad)

 

 

long story w/ link to other who had the same issue, but no one posted a real solution there

 

If the fans die like that, then probably the motor died rather than anything preventing them from proper operation. Sucks, I suppose.

 

Every laptop has their ups and downs. Just can't justify too many of them due to so many downs and so few ups. To make it clear, almost no laptop clears my spec for being a great product. Whether it's Clevo's shitty BIOS and software to the fact that MSI directly cripples stock performance on single GPU units unless you get a BIOS mod, to anything designed by Gigabyte or Razer or ASUS, to the extremely expensive nature of the mostly-decent units like Aorus line... yeah. I just pick the most palatable poisons for someone's requests. The GOOD side is Clevos have shops that fix the problems on the high end units, or I would tell you flat out there's no high end laptop on the market worth owning.

 

 

[sicily428]

ASUS ROG Strix GL702ZC (AMD Ryzen 7 1700, Radeon RX 580) review – a really good workstation with ROG’s branding on top?

http://laptopmedia.com/review/asus-rog-strix-gl702zc-amd-ryzen-7-1700-radeon-rx-580-review-a-really-good-workstation-with-rogs-branding-on-top/