Why GPU is not like CPU?

[Navjot Singh Minhas]

As we all know in laptop we can replace processor, as it is a stand alone dedicated chip....

 

But why is GPU always soldered with the motherboard? Why can't it be like CPU where we can take out a GPU chip and replace it with another one for upgrade as we always do like with the processors.

[Princess Luna]

Laptops are not meant to be cheap nor LEGO fun like desktops... you buy it you use it and you ditch it for something new just like smartphones, this is what drives the market and makes most earnings.

[Oshino Shinobu]

A lot of CPUs are soldered in now (and Apple is starting to solder the damn storage onto the board now). 

 

 

 

[Navjot Singh Minhas]

then why bother to do the same with processors? they can also solder it like mobiles!

 

There are mostly mobile processors in laptops instead of desktop processors, so they can also do that way!

 

Really not fair, they should have added gpu upgrade option.

[chiller15]

Just to clarify, not all laptops allow you to replace the CPU, especially some low-budget or small laptops.

 

The GPUs are often part of the chipset of the motherboard and thus cannot be replaced. This is a design standard and is not likely to change any time soon, as there is no requirement for it to.

[Princess Luna]

Just now, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

!

As far as I am concerned upgrading the CPU of a laptop really is not a thing.

[Pixel5]

7 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

As we all know in laptop we can replace processor, as it is a stand alone dedicated chip....

 

 

do we really know that we can do that?

im sure none of all the laptops i have here has a replaceable CPU.

 

this is not a thing both for GPU and CPU because its cheaper and more compact to solder the chip to the board and because the whole cooling design is build around this processor so replacing it with a stronger model that has a higher TDP would make no sense as you would run into thermal limits all the time.

[Navjot Singh Minhas]

4 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

As far as I am concerned upgrading the CPU of a laptop really is not a thing.

 

[chiller15]

6 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

then why bother to do the same with processors? they can also solder it like mobiles!

 

There are mostly mobile processors in laptops instead of desktop processors, so they can also do that way!

 

Really not fair, they should have added gpu upgrade option.

Because the market for those who want to upgrade their GPU in a laptop in extremely niche one - and thus not worth the R&D and production costs to implement it for a handful of buyers.

 

Just now, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

 

Whilst it is generally possible - it is not for the average user as it is a major undertaking to replace the CPU in a laptop. Most users wouldn't upgrade their desktop CPU by themselves, let-alone their laptop CPU.

[Vantage9]

9 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

then why bother to do the same with processors? they can also solder it like mobiles!

 

There are mostly mobile processors in laptops instead of desktop processors, so they can also do that way!

 

Really not fair, they should have added gpu upgrade option.

No, there are never desktop processors in laptops.  There are Mobile versions of desktop processors from Intel and the like, then there are truly mobile processors like the Snapdragon, etc.

[mariushm]

15 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

As we all know in laptop we can replace processor, as it is a stand alone dedicated chip....

 

But why is GPU always soldered with the motherboard? Why can't it be like CPU where we can take out a GPU chip and replace it with another one for upgrade as we always do like with the processors.

Graphics cards are not ALWAYS soldered onto the board, there are MXM modules in some laptops.  However, it takes less space to solder a graphics card on a board compared to modules or standalone cards because you also have to add the connectors between the board and the separate card, and you have other redundant things on the mxm module and you're stuck with that shape no matter what.

By soldering on the motherboard it's also possible to arrange the card in such a way as to be easier to cool it, for example extending the cpu cooler and heatpipes to cover the graphics chip as well.  And since they know exactly how much power they're going to allow the card to use, they can also modify the dc-dc converter that feeds the graphics to use less space, or be more efficient than the one on the mxm modules.

For example, the mxm module may be made to allow the card to run between 1200mhz and 1400 mhz and use anything between 60w and 90w by using a 6 phase dc-dc converter, but the laptop maker may save space inside the laptop by using a simpler 4 phase dc-dc converter and locking the graphics to maximum 75w power and maximum 1300mhz - you get a cooler graphics card, less power hungry, but a bit lower performance than a standalone mxm module.

 

There are also laptops which allow you to replace the cpu, some even allow you to install desktop processors though they'll be very power inefficient. 

Thin laptops have to solder the cpu because it uses less height.

 

[WereCatf]

2 minutes ago, Vantage9 said:

No, there are never desktop processors in laptops.  There are Mobile versions of desktop processors from Intel and the like, then there are truly mobile processors like the Snapdragon, etc.

Actually, yes, there are several vendors who sell laptops with desktop CPUs, too. See e.g. Sager

[mariushm]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

Actually, yes, there are several vendors who sell laptops with desktop CPUs, too. See e.g. Sager

 

5 minutes ago, Vantage9 said:

No, there are never desktop processors in laptops.  There are Mobile versions of desktop processors from Intel and the like, then there are truly mobile processors like the Snapdragon, etc.

 

 

[WereCatf]

10 minutes ago, Pixel5 said:

do we really know that we can do that?

im sure none of all the laptops i have here has a replaceable CPU.

Yes, we are. I have upgraded laptop-CPUs to more powerful ones several times, like e.g. on my previous laptop I swapped out the i5 that it shipped with to an i7.

[Navjot Singh Minhas]

11 minutes ago, mariushm said:

Graphics cards are not ALWAYS soldered onto the board, there are MXM modules in some laptops.  However, it takes less space to solder a graphics card on a board compared to modules or standalone cards because you also have to add the connectors between the board and the separate card, and you have other redundant things on the mxm module and you're stuck with that shape no matter what.

By soldering on the motherboard it's also possible to arrange the card in such a way as to be easier to cool it, for example extending the cpu cooler and heatpipes to cover the graphics chip as well.  And since they know exactly how much power they're going to allow the card to use, they can also modify the dc-dc converter that feeds the graphics to use less space, or be more efficient than the one on the mxm modules.

For example, the mxm module may be made to allow the card to run between 1200mhz and 1400 mhz and use anything between 60w and 90w by using a 6 phase dc-dc converter, but the laptop maker may save space inside the laptop by using a simpler 4 phase dc-dc converter and locking the graphics to maximum 75w power and maximum 1300mhz - you get a cooler graphics card, less power hungry, but a bit lower performance than a standalone mxm module.

 

There are also laptops which allow you to replace the cpu, some even allow you to install desktop processors though they'll be very power inefficient. 

Thin laptops have to solder the cpu because it uses less height.

 

Atleast laptops that are like alienware and asus which does R&D on connecting an external gpu case through thunderbolt port waste money on that, which also we know rarely people will use.

 

Why not also try to add dedicated removable GPU chip!

[mariushm]

2 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

Atleast laptops that are like alienware and asus which does R&D on connecting an external gpu case through thunderbolt port waste money on that, which also we know rarely people will use.

 

Why not also try to add dedicated removable GPU chip!

There's practically no research involved, it's just installing a Thunderbolt chip on the motherboard which routes a few pci express lanes through a cable.  The external graphics are just boxes that create a pci express slot and have a power supply to power the graphics with 12v.

It's not rocket science, but Intel makes those Thunderbolt things only work with Intel processors and the chips themselves are expensive, so that's why you don't see all laptops supporting that.

AMD could invent a special connector tomorrow which would route a few pci-e lanes outside the laptop, but it wouldn't gain traction unless everyone agrees to some sort of standard... and, the graphics card would still need external power so it sucks.

 

Ideally, someone would come with a series of graphics card that can work with 12v or with 16.5v...20v so that you could use a special cable that carries both data (a few pci-e lanes and let's say up to 100w from the laptop to the graphics card.  This way, you'd have external graphics like hard disk racks, just connecting with a single cable to the laptop.

 

[michaelocarroll007]

36 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

As we all know in laptop we can replace processor, as it is a stand alone dedicated chip....

 

But why is GPU always soldered with the motherboard? Why can't it be like CPU where we can take out a GPU chip and replace it with another one for upgrade as we always do like with the processors.

Lots of laptops you cant switch the processor in any meaningful way.  Everything is getting soldered on lately.  Ram CPU GPU SSD trend will continue as laptops get smaller and lighter.

 

But they do have some replacable laptop GPUS its called MXM chips. typically only the builkier laptops have this and the Cards cost a good deal amount more as nvidia has been pretty laxed with updating them and keeping em current. 

[Nocte]

8 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

Atleast laptops that are like alienware and asus which does R&D on connecting an external gpu case through thunderbolt port waste money on that, which also we know rarely people will use.

 

Why not also try to add dedicated removable GPU chip!

It is easier for users to connect a GPU through thunderbolt from something like Razer Core than opening up their laptop. Some people don't even know how to fix their keyboard keys.

 

The answer to your question has already been provided: they don't use replaceable CPUs/GPUs because of space constraints (soldered components occupy less space) and cost effectiveness. LTT forum users won't be able to change that.

[Vantage9]

19 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Actually, yes, there are several vendors who sell laptops with desktop CPUs, too. See e.g. Sager

Fair enough, it exists.  But, lets be honest, this is by far the vast exception to the rule.  There's a reason that intel makes Mobile-specific processors.  Looking at the most common gaming laptop vendors from the likes of Razor, Alienware, MSI, and ASUS - none of them currently offer a Desktop CPU in a laptop at all.  XoticPC seems to be the only one I can find besides Sager and they offer an i5-7500. 

 

I think 'several vendors' might be a bit of a stretch, despite my incorrect use of the word 'never'.  I hope your internet win was worth missing the point.

[Navjot Singh Minhas]

7 minutes ago, Eibe said:

It is easier for users to connect a GPU through thunderbolt from something like Razer Core than opening up their laptop. Some people don't even know how to fix their keyboard keys.

 

The answer to your question has already been provided: they don't use replaceable CPUs/GPUs because of space constraints (soldered components occupy less space) and cost effectiveness. LTT forum users won't be able to change that.

Agree that LTT users can't change that, but LTT surely can

Intel, nvidia atc you name it... takes LTT reviews seriously.

[WereCatf]

17 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

Agree that LTT users can't change that, but LTT surely can

Intel, nvidia atc you name it... takes LTT reviews seriously.

Even companies with billion-dollar budgets can't always get Intel, NVIDIA or the likes to make even really small changes, yet you believe that LTT -- who aren't even a hardware-manufacture in the first place, let alone with billion-dollar budgets -- could push those companies to make such really big, sweeping changes as the likes you're suggesting? Ummm. You need to take a reality-check.

[mariushm]

19 minutes ago, Navjot Singh Minhas said:

Agree that LTT users can't change that, but LTT surely can

Intel, nvidia atc you name it... takes LTT reviews seriously.

Don't make me laugh .. LTT is considered just an "influencer" , maybe one with big view count on videos but the majority of those viewers are not people that are gonna spend big money

Sites like Anandtech and Toms Hardware and others have much higher traffic and even those wouldn't be able to influence companies.

 

As for Thunderbolt, in a very simplified way, it's just a marketing tool. Apple colluded with Intel to "invent" Thunderbolt and paid them a lot of cash for exclusivity, to be the only ones with Thunderbolt , then Intel gets to use it as well and have something different, special, compared to AMD systems.

It wasn't necessarily invented to benefit people.

 

Sure it does some nice things, like mixing pci-e lanes, usb , network on one cable... but other things already did that... hdmi for example has the graphics bandwidth, has wires dedicated for network and has side channel (good enough for some usb 2.0).. it could have been improved to become what Thunderbolt is but Intel and Apple needed something proprietary.