AMD Ryzen Speculation

[App4that]

1 minute ago, othertomperson said:

lol so Kepler and Maxwell are the same thing because they're both on 28nm? There's much more to an architecture than the process node.

Why I said basically... Point is there isn't a die shrink. 

[othertomperson]

2 minutes ago, App4that said:

Why I said basically... Point is there isn't a die shrink. 

No, but the die shrink isn't usually the important part. If you look at every tick-tock it's the next architecture that has the most impact, rather than the die shrink itself. Ivy Bridge was much closer to Sandy Bridge than it was to Haswell.

[jappypack]

4 minutes ago, App4that said:

Wait? You're blaming Intel, for AMD stringing people along? 

 

*giggle*

AMD's architecture failed with piledriver. Since this Intel has gained most the market share, and generally they're a bigger than AMD now. They cannot afford to be undercut in price. The reason why people are waiting for Ryzen is because of a drop in price. Intel's lack of innovation, and higher prices are quite unattractive to some, especially right now where Ryzen is around the corner. And it is going to be out in Q1, next month that's my prediction, but it isn't going to be delayed past Q1 and I'm sure of that. AMD is probably going to announce their prices at the end of this month. 

Not trying to sound like an AMD shill, I'm just waiting for better value. If AMD delivers, I'll buy AMD. If not, I'll just buy Skylake. Simple as that.

[App4that]

Just now, othertomperson said:

No, but the die shrink isn't usually the important part. If you look at every tick-tock it's the next architecture that has the most impact, rather than the die shrink itself. Ivy Bridge was much closer to Sandy Bridge than it was to Haswell.

But Intel gave up the tick, tock. That's gone. Look at the space of time between the launch of Skylake and Broadwell-E. You know Intel is waiting for Ryzen and it's influence on the market to have any real plans for Skylake E or X.

[App4that]

1 minute ago, jappypack said:

AMD's architecture failed with piledriver. Since this Intel has gained most the market share, and generally they're a bigger than AMD now. They cannot afford to be undercut in price. The reason why people are waiting for Ryzen is because of a drop in price. Intel's lack of innovation, and higher prices are quite unattractive to some, especially right now where Ryzen is around the corner. And it is going to be out in Q1, next month that's my prediction, but it isn't going to be delayed past Q1 and I'm sure of that. AMD is probably going to announce their prices at the end of this month. 

Not trying to sound like an AMD shill, I'm just waiting for better value. If AMD delivers, I'll buy AMD. If not, I'll just buy Skylake. Simple as that.

And when Ryzen can't compete IPC wise against Kabylake? Is that Intel's fault too? 

 

Pressure needs to be placed on AMD, they're the one's who haven't brought anything to market that changes anything. If the IPC isn't there with Ryzen AMD failed again. 

[othertomperson]

7 minutes ago, App4that said:

But Intel gave up the tick, tock. That's gone. Look at the space of time between the launch of Skylake and Broadwell-E. You know Intel is waiting for Ryzen and it's influence on the market to have any real plans for Skylake E or X.

No they didn't, they just added a slight alteration to Tock afterwards, ie Kaby Lake. The existence of Kaby Lake does not change the fact that Broadwell was just a die shrink of Haswell, and Skylake was a new architecture on the same process.

[App4that]

1 minute ago, othertomperson said:

No they didn't, they just added a slight alteration to Tock afterwards, ie Kaby Lake. The existence of Kaby Lake does not change the fact that Broadwell was just a die shrink of Haswell, and Skylake was a new architecture on the same architecture.

https://www.google.com/search?site=webhp&source=hp&q=intel+tick+tock+abandoned&oq=intel+tick+tock+abandoned&gs_l=hp.3...2344.9280.0.11344.26.22.0.4.4.0.115.1988.20j2.22.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.24.1851.0..0j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.zpY6NfyJIjA

[othertomperson]

Just now, App4that said:

https://www.google.com/search?site=webhp&source=hp&q=intel+tick+tock+abandoned&oq=intel+tick+tock+abandoned&gs_l=hp.3...2344.9280.0.11344.26.22.0.4.4.0.115.1988.20j2.22.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.24.1851.0..0j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i22i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.zpY6NfyJIjA

I'm sorry, should I have stuck to words of one syllable? Maybe bigger text would help.

 

Broadwell is a die shrink of Haswell. Skylake is a new architecture.

[jappypack]

2 minutes ago, App4that said:

And when Ryzen can't compete IPC wise against Kabylake? Is that Intel's fault too? 

 

Pressure needs to be placed on AMD, they're the one's who haven't brought anything to market that changes anything. If the IPC isn't there with Ryzen AMD failed again. 

The IPC is there but AMD is going for the price. Intel is going to outperform AMD, but only by a small margin now. Say AMD released their processors aggressively cheap, why would people pay 30% more on an intel processor for a 5% increase? And I'm not on about enthusiasts, I'm talking about the people on a budget who could use extra cores or threads, but don't have the money to invest in an i7.

[App4that]

3 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

I'm sorry, should I have stuck to words of one syllable? Maybe bigger text would help.

 

Broadwell is a die shrink of Haswell. Skylake is a new architecture.

All are new architecture, careful how you throw insults if you don't understand that. Broadwell-E is Broadwell on the 14nm process. 

 

The switch to Skylake isn't a guaranty of performance gains. 

[App4that]

1 minute ago, jappypack said:

The IPC is there but AMD is going for the price. Intel is going to outperform AMD, but only by a small margin now. Say AMD released their processors aggressively cheap, why would people pay 30% more on an intel processor for a 5% increase? And I'm not on about enthusiasts, I'm talking about the people on a budget who could use extra cores or threads, but don't have the money to invest in an i7.

Who on a budget needs more cores over IPC? And you forget that Kabylake brought hyperthreading to Pentium and an unlocked i3. 

[Froody129]

My pun reply got best answer? Lol

 

What? You guys can take the PUNishment?

[othertomperson]

5 minutes ago, App4that said:

All are new architecture, careful how you throw insults if you don't understand that. Broadwell-E is Broadwell on the 14nm process. 

 

The switch to Skylake isn't a guaranty of performance gains. 

Uh no, Broadwell-E is Haswell-E on the 14nm process.

 

You can google search tick-tock all you like but all they did was take tick-tock and add an optimisation stage at the end. Intel's strategy from Haswell through to Skylake and excluding Kaby Lake is the same Tick Tock they've always done. I'm not going apologise if you think that saying such is an "insult" and need to have a cry over it.

[TheRandomness]

46 minutes ago, App4that said:

Differ all you want. Truth is no Ryzen Q1.

 

"Speaking of which, while AMD wouldn’t commit to a hard launch date for Ryzen, Hallock did give a glimpse at when not to expect Ryzen, which will launch this quarter. “When companies say first quarter or first half, people assume that means the very end of that time frame,” Hallock said. “The very last day of Q1 is not our trajectory.”

 

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3155109/computers/new-amd-ryzen-details-revealed-overclocking-crossfire-lineup-info-and-more.html

 

But I appreciate the begging. 

Could mean earlier ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[App4that]

4 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

Uh no, Broadwell E is Haswell-E on the 14nm process.

What ever floats your boat. Have fun waiting, and waiting, and waiting LOL. Always that next BUG thing lol.

[jappypack]

4 minutes ago, App4that said:

Who on a budget needs more cores over IPC? And you forget that Kabylake brought hyperthreading to Pentium and an unlocked i3. 

A very minimal IPC difference, which means that a quad core Ryzen would outperform a hyperthreaded i3! Even in gaming! Ryzen Physical cores are better than Intel virtual cores! (And again, AMD's cores actually have decent IPC this time.) Mindblown!

[othertomperson]

4 minutes ago, App4that said:

What ever floats your boat. Have fun waiting, and waiting, and waiting LOL. Always that next BUG thing lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadwell_(microarchitecture)

 

You might want to give this a read.

 

The first two sentences read:

 

" Broadwell is Intel's codename for the 14 nanometer die shrink of its Haswell microarchitecture. It is a "tick" in Intel's tick-tock principle as the next step in semiconductor fabrication "

[porina]

22 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

AMD have gone through extreme lengths to compare their IPC with Broadwell's. Clock for clock they are around the same. Do you not think if they could show their IPC equalling Skylake's instead that they would not have fallen over themselves to do it?

Wrong way around. The question is if they fall back from Broadwell IPC in other areas not yet shown. Maybe not if, but how much. Also Broadwell is pretty much a default choice. Haswell is older and will raise questions if it were used. And there isn't yet a Skylake solution with enough cores to compare against.

 

22 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

Whether or not they want to compete with HEDT, that's where they are. That's where Ryzen makes sense to me. They have the cores on a reasonable enough architecture to make X99 irrelevant. I can't say the same for the mainstream market.

What is currently known about Ryzen shows they're not trying to be competitive against X99 at a platform level. Low numbers of PCIe lanes, and only dual channel ram? If the cores are as fast as the best case, they will be starved under intensive load conditions. Anyone after highest performing system levels will still go X99. Zen will still have to compete by offering more value wherever it lands. While we've only been shown an 8 core variant so far, talk is the launch will include less core models. Very much a mainstream target.

[othertomperson]

4 minutes ago, porina said:

Wrong way around. The question is if they fall back from Broadwell IPC in other areas not yet shown. Maybe not if, but how much. Also Broadwell is pretty much a default choice. Haswell is older and will raise questions if it were used. And there isn't yet a Skylake solution with enough cores to compare against.

 

What is currently known about Ryzen shows they're not trying to be competitive against X99 at a platform level. Low numbers of PCIe lanes, and only dual channel ram? If the cores are as fast as the best case, they will be starved under intensive load conditions. Anyone after highest performing system levels will still go X99. Zen will still have to compete by offering more value wherever it lands. While we've only been shown an 8 core variant so far, talk is the launch will include less core models. Very much a mainstream target.

I don't see how them having worse IPC than Broadwell would make them more competitive. That'd be the final nail in the coffin tbh.

 

The thing is if they are offering a large number of comparatively slow cores that puts them against X99, whether they like it or not. A slow quad core will have to be very cheap, or be competing against Intel's dual cores, or there's no point.

[porina]

6 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

I don't see how them having worse IPC than Broadwell would make them more competitive. That'd be the final nail in the coffin tbh.

Who said it would be good? I'm just pointing out we've had two performance demos from AMD. The assumption would be the ones they showed would be amongst the better performing ones. What about all the other different types of application out there?

 

Now things will get more complicated, if they're going to offer 4/6/8 cores vs Intel's 2/4. 

 

6 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

The thing is if they are offering a large number of comparatively slow cores that puts them against X99, whether they like it or not. A slow quad core will have to be very cheap, or be competing against Intel's dual cores, or there's no point.

We don't know the eventual core clocks yet. Rumours are turbo in the 4 GHz ball park, and they're probably holding back a bit due to TDP control just like Intel does. On the fewer core solutions, they can put more of that TDP budget in getting clocks up.

[othertomperson]

6 minutes ago, porina said:

We don't know the eventual core clocks yet. Rumours are turbo in the 4 GHz ball park, and they're probably holding back a bit due to TDP control just like Intel does. On the fewer core solutions, they can put more of that TDP budget in getting clocks up.

Before Kaby Lake I would have cared. However, now that we know that Kaby Lake is all of the IPC of Skylake, but over 5GHz then I seriously doubt Ryzen will be able to make up the IPC difference with even quite aggressive overclocks.

[App4that]

45 minutes ago, jappypack said:

A very minimal IPC difference, which means that a quad core Ryzen would outperform a hyperthreaded i3! Even in gaming! Ryzen Physical cores are better than Intel virtual cores! (And again, AMD's cores actually have decent IPC this time.) Mindblown!

How do you figure. First off you don't even know the pricing. The SR7 is rumored to be 500 bucks. And AMD said themselves a 40% increase in IPC, that's not above Skylake or kabylake. 

 

45 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadwell_(microarchitecture)

 

You might want to give this a read.

 

The first two sentences read:

 

" Broadwell is Intel's codename for the 14 nanometer die shrink of its Haswell microarchitecture. It is a "tick" in Intel's tick-tock principle as the next step in semiconductor fabrication "

What does this have to do with the Tick tock being done away with?

[App4that]

Time stamp 5:34

 

Single thread performance. The 7700k scores 196. The 9590 scores 110. add 40% and the score for AMD is 154.

 

That places Ryzen 22% behind the 7700k in single thread performance. 

 

 

[othertomperson]

10 minutes ago, App4that said:

How do you figure. First off you don't even know the pricing. The SR7 is rumored to be 500 bucks. And AMD said themselves a 40% increase in IPC, that's not above Skylake or kabylake. 

 

What does this have to do with the Tick tock being done away with?

Absolutely nothing, but you keep ignoring my posts to keep repeating that Tick-Tock is gone. It is since Kaby Lake, but who cares? We're talking about Broadwell, and Broadwell was the Tick to Haswell's Tock.

[App4that]

5 minutes ago, othertomperson said:

Absolutely nothing, but you keep ignoring my posts to keep repeating that Tick-Tock is gone. It is since Kaby Lake, but who cares? We're talking about Broadwell, and Broadwell was the Tick to Haswell's Tock.

Oh, yeah. I said that. *giggle*