GH4 Noise Issues

[peabody505]

So I have me the Panasonic GH4. Great camera, very sharp images, good all around. I have just one issue with it: I seem to be getting immense amounts of small grainy noise, sort of like a much more aggressive film grain everywhere in the scene. This happens even in broad daylight with my ISO set to 200.

 

I've seen loads of GH4 footage tests with almost no noise, with no NR or any post modification. The only difference is that they're using a metabones speedbooster with full frame lenses. I get how this helps in low light, but during the day it shouldn't make much of a difference...?

 

Could someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I'll upload some of my footage if anyone wants.

 

*Edit* Red Giant's Denoiser III is so much better than Denoiser II, it's going to allow me to keep shooting while I figure out my grain issue. Of course I'd rather not have to use it so I'll still be attempting to solve this issue, and if I find anything interesting I'll post it.

[The_Denks]

Check your white balance

[AkiraDaarkst]

12 minutes ago, peabody505 said:

So I have me the Panasonic GH4. Great camera, very sharp images, good all around. I have just one issue with it: I seem to be getting immense amounts of small grainy noise, sort of like a much more aggressive film grain everywhere in the scene. This happens even in broad daylight with my ISO set to 200.

 

I've seen loads of GH4 footage tests with almost no noise, with no NR or any post modification. The only difference I can tell is that they're using a metabones speedbooster with full frame lenses. I get how this helps in low light, but during the day it shouldn't make much of a difference...?

 

Could someone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I'll upload some of my footage if anyone wants.

I have a question, how are you checking the exposure, what are you using to make sure the scene is exposed properly?  Can you post a sample or a frame grab?

[peabody505]

3 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

I have a question, how are you checking the exposure, what are you using to make sure the scene is exposed properly?  Can you post a sample or a frame grab?

I use the built in zebra striping feature & focus peaking (blue dots), and I generally try to underexpose a little. This can be seen clearly here:

And here for a darker image:

Here are some video samples:

http://puu.sh/szIm9/1a1b458ae8.MOV

http://puu.sh/szI0v/c49eec9ef2.MOV

[AkiraDaarkst]

1 hour ago, peabody505 said:

 

Have you compared your underexposed footage to footage that you record with a proper exposure?  Also try filming outdoors on a sunny day or use lights to brighten up the scene.  Even my $10,000'ish video camera shows this kind of noise/grain when underexposed or when the scene being filmed is not lit properly.

 

Have you checked out this video?  What exact settings are you using in the camera?

 

[Omon_Ra]

1 hour ago, peabody505 said:

I use the built in zebra striping feature & focus peaking (blue dots), and I generally try to underexpose a little. This can be seen clearly here:

Here are some video samples:

http://puu.sh/szIm9/1a1b458ae8.MOV

http://puu.sh/szI0v/c49eec9ef2.MOV

I don't really see the noise you're talking about in either of these clips. Any particular reason you're underexposing? That will generally bring out noise more. Also, what ISO's are you shooting at? Certain ISO's will have worse noise than others.

[peabody505]

4 hours ago, Omon_Ra said:

I don't really see the noise you're talking about in either of these clips. Any particular reason you're underexposing? That will generally bring out noise more. Also, what ISO's are you shooting at? Certain ISO's will have worse noise than others.

It gets much worse in darker scenarios, and I underexpose so I'm able to do more with my highlights in grading, and because I read that it was good for image quality on the GH4. The noise seems to be equally present when I expose correctly though, and I don't think my adjustments are enough to cause as much of an issue as I'm getting.

4 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Have you compared your underexposed footage to footage that you record with a proper exposure?  Also try filming outdoors on a sunny day or use lights to brighten up the scene.  Even my $10,000'ish video camera shows this kind of noise/grain when underexposed or when the scene being filmed is not lit properly.

 

Have you checked out this video?  What exact settings are you using in the camera?

 

I have indeed seen that video, I tried his suggestions, they seemed not to help. I understand how there's always going to be some noise, but my results seem much noisier than even some of my lower end cameras. Footage is of a rainy day because I just shot that today... and it was raining. My exact settings for those clips were as follows, with the exception of ISO which I changed from 200 to 400 on the indoor scene.

 

ISO: 200

Aperture: f3.5

Shutter speed: 50

Mode: Cinelike D (Slightly flatter image), No adjustments.

Master Pedestal: 0

In camera Adjustments: None

 

*Edit* Apologies, the outdoor scene was f5.6, not 3.5.

[Omon_Ra]

6 hours ago, peabody505 said:

It gets much worse in darker scenarios, and I underexpose so I'm able to do more with my highlights in grading, and because I read that it was good for image quality on the GH4. The noise seems to be equally present when I expose correctly though, and I don't think my adjustments are enough to cause as much of an issue as I'm getting.

I have indeed seen that video, I tried his suggestions, they seemed not to help. I understand how there's always going to be some noise, but my results seem much noisier than even some of my lower end cameras. Footage is of a rainy day because I just shot that today... and it was raining. My exact settings for those clips were as follows, with the exception of ISO which I changed from 200 to 400 on the indoor scene.

 

Do you have any longer clips? And maybe of some varying exposures but of the same scene? Like I said previously, I don't really see the problems with noise that you're saying you are having. For reference, these are two videos I've shot with my GH2 at higher ISO's (the live band stuff I think was mostly 800-3200; the fishing one is mostly 6400 and some 12800) and while there is noise, with the black & white it kind of comes off as more film-like grain than digital noise. For me, that's tolerable; so it's possible my ideas of 'low noise' are different than yours.

 

 

 

[peabody505]

25 minutes ago, Omon_Ra said:

Do you have any longer clips? And maybe of some varying exposures but of the same scene? Like I said previously, I don't really see the problems with noise that you're saying you are having. For reference, these are two videos I've shot with my GH2 at higher ISO's (the live band stuff I think was mostly 800-3200; the fishing one is mostly 6400 and some 12800) and while there is noise, with the black & white it kind of comes off as more film-like grain than digital noise. For me, that's tolerable; so it's possible my ideas of 'low noise' are different than yours.

 

 

 

Yeah man, I'm working mostly on stuff where noise is no bueno. The videos you reference would not be acceptable under most circumstances for me. I'm usually either shooting shorts where noise is a distraction and pulls you away from the story, or I'm shooting for clients who need the cleanest image I can give them. Even if I want noise or grain in a piece it's good to have a clean image at the start and add grain in later exactly when and how I want it.

 

However I think the videos you referenced benefit from the noise, it does seem more like film grain. They're telling stories from real life, as they happened, pretty objectively. Having noise in that kind of a video just enhances the gritty realism kind of aesthetic and reinforces the fact that "this stuff happened and I'm telling it like it is". 

 

Sorry if I'm being redundant and uncoordinated, it's late and I'm tired.

[Omon_Ra]

26 minutes ago, peabody505 said:

-snip-

No, I totally understand what you mean and that's what I was trying to figure out, your tolerance for what is acceptable noise/grain. Check your picture mode settings (standard, nostalgic, whatever other ones they have named), different ones will enhance/reduce noise in different light conditions (at least that's how it was for the GH2). It takes some trial and error, as what is displayed in the viewfinder on standby is not always how it records once you start rolling; and also you really need to look at it on a big screen to get a gauge of the noise anyways. I generally turn the sharpness all the way down (the Panny sensors seem to be pretty damn sharp as it is) and turn all of the noise reduction down. I know that may sound backwards for what you're trying to accomplish, but if you want the cleanest footage you can get, turn off as much NR as you can. What lenses are you shooting with and have you tried recording to an external device rather than in-camera?

[AkiraDaarkst]

8 hours ago, peabody505 said:

ISO: 200

Aperture: f3.5

Shutter speed: 50

Mode: Cinelike D (Slightly flatter image), No adjustments.

Master Pedestal: 0

In camera Adjustments: None

 

*Edit* Apologies, the outdoor scene was f5.6, not 3.5.

Are you also using V-LOG?

 

I'll come back with a longer comment once I finish reading and catching up on the comments so far, but my advice is:

• Never underexpose when you film.  I understand you may want to do so in order to be able to grade the highlights, but for those use a ND filter instead of underexposing.  Gradient ND filters will help.
• If you can, try to light the scene properly.  You may feel that the scene is exposed properly by looking at the zebras, but sometimes even if the camera is telling you the exposure is correct the kind of grain/noise you see will appear in the shadows and blacks.  Adding proper lighting will help.
• Additionally, are you recording internally or using an external recorder (e.g. Atomos Ninja, BlackMagic Video Assist)?  I believe the GH4 records 8-bit internally, but is capable of outputting 10-bit to an external recorder.  I know this is some extra money that you will have to invest in, but I can assure you that for DSLR video shooters like yourself, it is worth it.  Some of those external recorders come with integrated monitors that are at least 4-5 inches in size, giving you a bigger screen to check your focus, your composition and framing, etc. and feature exposure checking features that are more advanced than the one inside the camera.  Waveforms, Parade and Vector scopes are all helpful.  In fact, I'm actually using an external monitor/recorder to check for exposure and focus because the small viewfinder that comes with my Sony cine camera is (in my opinion) crap and only useful to view the camera settings.

 

By the way, if you haven't already done so, join the Panasonic GH4 users group(s) on Facebook.  I find that a lot of people in those kinds of groups, I know for my Sony camera group, are very helpful.

[peabody505]

2 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Are you also using V-LOG?

 

I'll come back with a longer comment once I finish reading and catching up on the comments so far, but my advice is:

• Never underexpose when you film.  I understand you may want to do so in order to be able to grade the highlights, but for those use a ND filter instead of underexposing.  Gradient ND filters will help.
• If you can, try to light the scene properly.  You may feel that the scene is exposed properly by looking at the zebras, but sometimes even if the camera is telling you the exposure is correct the kind of grain/noise you see will appear in the shadows and blacks.  Adding proper lighting will help.
• Additionally, are you recording internally or using an external recorder (e.g. Atomos Ninja, BlackMagic Video Assist)?  I believe the GH4 records 8-bit internally, but is capable of outputting 10-bit to an external recorder.  I know this is some extra money that you will have to invest in, but I can assure you that for DSLR video shooters like yourself, it is worth it.  Some of those external recorders come with integrated monitors that are at least 4-5 inches in size, giving you a bigger screen to check your focus, your composition and framing, etc. and feature exposure checking features that are more advanced than the one inside the camera.  Waveforms, Parade and Vector scopes are all helpful.  In fact, I'm actually using an external monitor/recorder to check for exposure and focus because the small viewfinder that comes with my Sony cine camera is (in my opinion) crap and only useful to view the camera settings.

 

By the way, if you haven't already done so, join the Panasonic GH4 users group(s) on Facebook.  I find that a lot of people in those kinds of groups, I know for my Sony camera group, are very helpful.

Not using V-Log for these tests, I plan on getting a Ninja 2 in the short term, and upgrading to a Ninja Blade later, because I don't work too much in 4K.

I didn't feel the need to use an ND filter with these shots, and I was kind of trying to show some noise with them. I could've lit them really well to eliminate the noise, but I've seen the results I want come from other GH4s in just daylight, so it should be possible without additional lighting.

[AkiraDaarkst]

1 hour ago, peabody505 said:

Not using V-Log for these tests, I plan on getting a Ninja 2 in the short term, and upgrading to a Ninja Blade later, because I don't work too much in 4K.

I didn't feel the need to use an ND filter with these shots, and I was kind of trying to show some noise with them. I could've lit them really well to eliminate the noise, but I've seen the results I want come from other GH4s in just daylight, so it should be possible without additional lighting.

I wouldn't waste my money or time on a Ninja 2.  Right now Atomos has a deal going on till the end of January next year starting with their Atomos Ninja Blade all the way up to the Shogun Flame series.  Buy the Blade, you will get a $100 cash back.

 

As for recording 4K, none of the Blades support 4K recording.  You'll need something like a Shogun or Ninja Assassin/Flame for 4K.

 

 

[peabody505]

Haha sorry, meant Ninja Flame, not blade. 

[AkiraDaarkst]

3 hours ago, peabody505 said:

Haha sorry, meant Ninja Flame, not blade. 

Oh right.  Ok well as someone who owns the Inferno and has tested both Flame models I can tell you a few things.

1. the new models have better build quality and come with more accessories in the box than previous models.  Though mind you, the build quality is still worse than the build quality of a SmallHD monitor, but the SmallHD are not recorders.
2. the screens are very bright, daylight viewable indeed.
3. warning: don't place the recorders near mics, the fans in the Inferno and Flames can be a bit noise but I've heard people say that it will become quieter after a few months of use.  I've only had my Inferno for a few weeks now and have only used it a few times.

I purchased the Inferno because I have a camera capable of filming 4K60p.  The Flames are 4K30p max. Some of the advertised features are still not available at the time of purchase, Atomos says they will add them with a future firmware update.

 

Another option is the Odyssey 7Q+, better build quality and support for dual storage drive system and sort of future proof because they seem to add new features with firmware updates.  But lower resolution screen and I find the screen of the Atomos recorder to be better.  But the Odyssey can record from two cameras at the same time.