Specs vs Real World Performance

[LoveGamers]

We all saw new Macs, their specs in relation to how they cost, but how do they actually perform? (We don't know about the 2016 version yet, but what about the Late 2015 version?)

 

Outside of gaming, is it still true that macOS and Macs are better optimized for eachother will outperform a higher specced Windows device outside of gaming?

[Shiv78]

5 minutes ago, LoveGamers said:

macOS and Macs are better optimized for eachother will outperform a higher specced Windows device outside of gaming

Optimization is much better

However, something like a Surface device with identical specs to a Mac will probably perform the same or better. Higher specs should beat optimization anyway, unless the difference is small (dual core i5 to a slightly higher clocked i5 doesn't usually make a big difference in laptops)

[m2234323]

7 minutes ago, LoveGamers said:

We all saw new Macs, their specs in relation to how they cost, but how do they actually perform? (We don't know about the 2016 version yet, but what about the Late 2015 version?)

 

Outside of gaming, is it still true that macOS and Macs are better optimized for eachother will outperform a higher specced Windows device outside of gaming?

it depen a lot on the software like if you like fincut pro x it will beet pc I saw video of it been done on a MacBook

[AkiraDaarkst]

9 minutes ago, LoveGamers said:

We all saw new Macs, their specs in relation to how they cost, but how do they actually perform? (We don't know about the 2016 version yet, but what about the Late 2015 version?)

 

Outside of gaming, is it still true that macOS and Macs are better optimized for eachother will outperform a higher specced Windows device outside of gaming?

It depends on the software that the user will use and they use it. 

 

I'm sure I could get a Windows based laptop with better internal components for the same price I paid for my 2015 MacBook Pro that was configured to the max possible.  But I doubt I would get the same quality screen or build quality or lightweight compact form factor as the MacBook Pro.  To actually get a Windows based workstation that I would want to use, it will probably cost me double or triple what I spent and it will be bigger and heavier.

 

FYI, I work as a freelance photographer and cinematographer.  My MacBook Pro is my portable in the field editing station and I can edit high bitrate 4K video on it, so no complaints.

[m2234323]

44 minutes ago, LoveGamers said:

We all saw new Macs, their specs in relation to how they cost, but how do they actually perform? (We don't know about the 2016 version yet, but what about the Late 2015 version?)

 

Outside of gaming, is it still true that macOS and Macs are better optimized for eachother will outperform a higher specced Windows device outside of gaming?

look at this video

 

[Dackzy]

A MacBook will only be better than a higher speced windows PC, IF you use Apples own programs (Logic Pro X and Final Cut Pro X), the rest a PC would beat a macbook

[AkiraDaarkst]

1 hour ago, Dackzy said:

A MacBook will only be better than a higher speced windows PC, IF you use Apples own programs (Logic Pro X and Final Cut Pro X), the rest a PC would beat a macbook

The performance of software like Premiere Pro, After Effects, etc. will be the same or very close to being the same on a MacBook Pro and on a non-Apple laptop with similar CPU GPU specs.  But those specs mean nothing when the non-MacBook Windows based laptop might be 1 inch thick, weighs 3 kilos,made of plastic and composite materials, and has a worse battery life.

[Dackzy]

1 minute ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

The performance of software like Premiere Pro, After Effects, etc. will be the same or very close to being the same on a MacBook Pro and on a non-Apple laptop with similar CPU GPU specs.  But those specs mean nothing when the non-MacBook Windows based laptop might be 1 inch thick, weighs 3 kilos,made of plastic and composite materials, and has a worse battery life.

You are talking about a dual core 13 inch laptop and a 15 inch with a 6700HQ or a 6820HQ and a RX 460 if you max it out, have you heard of the XPS 13? You can get one with iris pro, that is your match for the 13 inch. If you want to really wreck the macbook pro 13, then you can look at the ThinkPad T460p, quad core CPU and a GTX 940mx, if you want something that is a tiny tiny bit worsted specced, but can wreck it in battery life and built quality, look at the T460s or the X260. I have a friend that got the X260 to 24 hours...

 

For the 15inch, that depends on what you are looking at, a 1300-1400$ Clevo would wreck the MBP 15, because it can get a 6820HK and a GTX 1060, the GS63vr also has a GTX 1060 and a 6700HQ. If you want to compare it to higher quality laptops, then look at the P50, yeah that thing can get a xeon CPU and has a quadro for the programs that only support quadro's and it basically makes the macbook "pro" look like a toy. They also all have way more ports than the MBP 15.

 

Would you look at that, every laptop is under 3kg.

 

In none Apple programs a Macbook pro would performe about the same as a euqally specced PC, in some programs it is even a bit slower. 

 

Also read what I said "higher speced windows PC". I was purely talking about the cases where a lower specced macbook pro would win.

 

Then you also have all of the weird crashes that suddenly happens when you aren't using first party programs. I was forced to use a macbook pro 15 for a short period, worst thing ever for my needs, autocad inventor crashed so many times, it wasn't even funny, while on my T420s or my desktop I have never had a single crash. Basically every single autocad program was crashing left and right.

[AkiraDaarkst]

2 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Then you also have all of the weird crashes that suddenly happens when you aren't using first party programs. I was forced to use a macbook pro 15 for a short period, worst thing ever for my needs, autocad inventor crashed so many times, it wasn't even funny, while on my T420s or my desktop I have never had a single crash. Basically every single autocad program was crashing left and right.

Were you using legit versions or pirating?

 

And I'm talking about the 15 inch MacBook Pros with the dGPU, because those are the ones I consider mobile workstations.  I don't consider the 13 inch ones to be workstations, they're more productivity suites (i.e. office type of work).

[Dackzy]

Just now, AkiraDaarkst said:

Were you using legit versions or pirating?

uhm legit. I have no need to pirate things. I get all autocad programs for free from my school and I don't like the idea of pirating things.

[AkiraDaarkst]

27 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

uhm legit. I have no need to pirate things. I get all autocad programs for free from my school and I don't like the idea of pirating things.

Hmm OK maybe you just had a bad experience.  I've had less software crashes on mine than with any non OSX laptop (i.e. Windows laptops from Compaq, HP, Dell, Asus) that I've used.  My first laptop, a Compaq, bought and used around 15 years or so ago needed to be sent back in for servicing almost every month that after 3 months of issues they sent me a replacement which also suffered the same problem until the 3rd replacement finally worked.  I used it for 2 years.

 

My last 3 Windows laptops were from Asus, the final one being bought and used in 2010'ish and it was pretty much very annoying at least once a year.  First the OEM copy of Windows it came pre-installed with also had a ton of adware that I had to remove.  Well almost all Windows pre-builts you buy comes with adware.  In the end every time I buy any Windows pre-builts I just format the drive and install a fresh copy of Windows with a license I own.

 

After a year or so of use, Windows starts slowing down.  I use a wide variety of software and applications, but not all the time.  After some projects, I uninstall the stuff I no longer need.  Uninstalling software in Windows does not mean it removes all the files and registry information.  After a while all of them pile up.

 

Moving over to OSX in 2011 (with a MacBook Air) was the best choice I ever made.  I could now focus more on getting work done and spend less time dealing with any issues OS related.  A year later I gave away that Air to my brother and bought the first generation Retina MacBook Pro 15 inch.

 

Essentially, with Windows laptops I find myself buying a new one no more than every 2 years.  With a MacBook Pro, I find myself replacing them less frequently.

 

I drop my plastic composite Windows laptop onto a marble floor from 24 inches in height, the hinge connecting the screen and body broke easily.  I once dropped my 2012 retina MBP in a similar situation (fell asleep with the MBP on my chest late one night working in a hotel room), a slight dent in one corner of the screen, about 1 inch of the left side of the screen was cracked, but still could use the remainder.  When I got back from my trip, Apple replaced the screen for free even though I had already passed my warranty period.

 

Right now the only Windows rig I use is my custom built desktop editing station.  Even then I had to format the SSD and reinstall Windows 7 because Windows 10 was becoming an annoying bitch, full of so many bugs, even though the only things I install on this rig are Adobe CC suite and Steam games.

 

My experience with Windows, starting from Windows 3.1 (actually I used versions before 3.1 when I was a kid but I didn't own my own computer then) with every version up to Windows 10 has been all over the map.  Windows 2000, ME and Vista are probably among the worst I've ever had.  With OSX, smooth sailing all the way.

 

I have B.Sc and M.Sc degrees in Computer Science, Software Engineering, Computer Engineering, so I know what I'm doing when I use a computer.  But now I'm tired of working as a programmer, developer that I decided to follow my passion and become a professional photographer and cinematographer a few years ago.

 

I don't buy MBPs or OSX because I think they're the industry standard for people who work with multimedia.  I buy them because they're reliable, robust, well designed machines that are pretty sleek and lightweight, fits well into my camera bags and doesn't add that much extra weight or bulk to the amount of gear I carry.

Edited November 11, 2016 by AkiraDaarkst

[Dackzy]

1 minute ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

SNIP

I have a feeling that those were cheap windows laptops. A MacBook can only dream about being as well built as a ThinkPad or Elitebook.

I have no idea of what you have been doing with your laptops, a CPU gets worse over time, no point in denying that, but a CPU that runs really hot, gets slower faster.

Also you do know that a dent the wrong place can basically fry your PC.

 

@Pendragon can also tell some stories with shitty programs on a macbook.

 

This thread is also more about what programs a MacBook will be better in, than a windows laptop with better hardware. 

 

Also the reason why Final cut pro X is so good is because it uses quick sync and well adobe's code is a pile of shit. If you take Sony Vegas and have a AMD GPU then you get some insane performance, if you get a windows editing software with Quick sync and then get a CPU with Quick sync as a feature, then the performance between a ULV macbook and ULV windows laptop would basically be the same or very close in video editing.

 

There is a Quick sync plug-in for adobe and it makes it adobe render faster.

[AkiraDaarkst]

2 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

I have a feeling that those were cheap windows laptops. A MacBook can only dream about being as well built as a ThinkPad or Elitebook.

Cheap laptops?  I buy laptops with specs that I feel comfortable with, which is often around the top-of-the line'ish.  The average I spent is around $2000 each time.  I have never bought a laptop that cost less than $1500.  And yes, I've also used a ThinkPad, when the name belonged to IBM.

 

This thread is about specs vs real world performance, and real world performance also takes into account user experience and knowledge of using the available hardware and software.  As someone who is educated and has several University degrees in IT and Computing fields, I know how to get the max out of any hardware I buy... but my experience with Windows has not been as smooth as with OSX.  My priority is getting the work I need to do done rather than tinkering with OS settings and software/hardware tweaks.

 

By the way, I added some stuff to my previous comment.

[LoveGamers]

Great Discussion.

 

I made this thread because I've been thinking about upgrading from my Late 2013 15' MBPr and I've found myself really reluctant to part ways from the Apple ecosystem. I definitely would want to be able to do a little more gaming, but my experiences with Windows in the past weren't exactly shining and since I've had literally zero issues with my laptop I was wondering what other people thought Specs vs Performance wise.

 

If were to buy a Mac right now with ideal specs it'd cost me at least $3500 and with roughly the same specs + a 1070 I can get a Clevo for around $2500. However with the Clevo I lose many many of the things mentioned by Akira. I probably won't buy a new MBPr just yet and I'm still considering a Clevo but there's definitely a lot of stuff I have to take into account. Thanks for all the input.

[AkiraDaarkst]

10 minutes ago, LoveGamers said:

 

My honest opinion: If you need a machine for gaming, a desktop would probably be what you want.  I don't really recommend gaming with any sort of portable machine (unless you really really really need your gaming machine to be portable for some reason I might not agree with).

 

This is what I have and use (and you don't have to do the same thing or agree with me).

At home I have a custom built PC with a pretty decent and powerful CPU, maxed out the memory, several SSDs and HDDs inside, both a powerful gaming GPU (Titan X) and a workstation GPU (Quadro) and a true 10-bit monitor.

I use this home desktop when I am at home, both for video editing and gaming when I feel like relaxing.

I use this desktop workstation for heavy duty editing.

 

But I use a MacBook Pro when I need to be away from home (whether to meet with clients, travel on assignments, go to the various offices I work at.)  I don't play games on this MBP, I use it as my primary photo editing machine (because I have the Lightroom libraries on this machine synced with my LR for iPAD here) and my away-from-home video editing portable workstation.

I understand the limitations of the MBP, and I treat it for what it is: a portable workstation that lets me get the job done when I am away from the desktop.  I don't expect it to behave or have the same capabilities as the desktop at home.

 

I use cloud storage services like DropBox and Box.net to sync work files between the home PC and MBP.

 

I use Adobe CC and Resolve.

 

I have no prejudice or beef against Windows, OSX, Microsoft, Apple, etc.  I simply buy and use what I need to do my work.

[Dackzy]

11 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Cheap laptops?  I buy laptops with specs that I feel comfortable with, which is often around the top-of-the line'ish.  The average I spent is around $2000 each time.  I have never bought a laptop that cost less than $1500.  And yes, I've also used a ThinkPad, when the name belonged to IBM.

 

This thread is about specs vs real world performance, and real world performance also takes into account user experience and knowledge of using the available hardware and software.  As someone who is educated and has several University degrees in IT and Computing fields, I know how to get the max out of any hardware I buy... but my experience with Windows has not been as smooth as with OSX.  My priority is getting the work I need to do done rather than tinkering with OS settings and software/hardware tweaks.

 

By the way, I added some stuff to my previous comment.

And I work with fixing laptops and macbooks are the worst thing ever to fix. I would go mad if I was Louis Rossmann.

 

Let me put my points this way.

 

Things I think a Macbook pro is great for

• Video editing (to some degree)
• Music editing (to some degree)
• media consumption

Things I think a Macbook pro is meh at

• Typing a lot, sorry, but they got nothing on a ThinkPad keyboard (IMO).
• Programs that aren't first party, some are just a pain in the ass, Pendragon said that excel on a macbook is bad, I tried a macbook with it and I have to agree.
• Photo editing, same performance as a windows laptop with same specs.
• Battery life, nothing special at all.

Things I think a Macbook pro sucks at

• 3D modeling
• Just general programs from third parties, where the more power you have, the better.
• Gaming, so few games and not a very good GPU

 

With this new gen, I basically see them as a joke, come on man, you need so many adaptors and all the problems they have right now, atleast the cheapest 13 inch model. You buy a 13 inch laptop that is what 1600-1700$ in the US and you get a laptop where the wifi turns off if you use a external HDD, not okay in any way. They also made the keyboard more shallow, because thinness. A pro would not care about thinness. Remove the Pro and I would pretty much be cool with it.

 

I can only see three reasons to get a macbook and that is the three things they are great at.

[AkiraDaarkst]

2 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

• 3D modeling
• Just general programs from third parties, where the more power you have, the better.
• Gaming, so few games and not a very good GPU

Do you really expect to use a MacBook Pro for this sort of work?

 

Gaming, forget about gaming.  We all know OSX is not really gamer oriented, and that it has few good games for it.  I don't think even Apple targets gamers with their OS.

 

3D modelling?  Does anyone seriously use any type of portable machine (laptops, MBPs, whatever) for 3D modeling?  If I worked with 3D modeling, graphics, animation, I'd choose to use a desktop and not a portable.  Though there may be a few instances where I might consider also using a portable machine for 3D work, such as architectural stuff where I may need to present the 3D model of a building I am designing at a meeting or show to clients that are not visiting my office.  But again, I'll choose to buy the machine that can do the job.

 

Typing a lot?  I love typing on the MBP, and I work in a multi language/multi cultural environment where I need to write stuff not only in English but also in other languages such as French, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.  I have the entire QWERTY US Keyboard memorized in my head and this is what I use, but the QWERTY US keyboard layout has few support for special characters and accented characters found in other languages.  In Windows, to type a special character you have several choices (copy from character map, type in the shortcut code, switch keyboard language).  In OSX, I simply need to hold down a key and pops up a small box with choices for that character with accents and other forms.

 

Some people prefer the eraserhead/nipple joystick on ThinkPads, some prefer the touchpad on MacBooks.  For this, there is no right or wrong choice, it all depends on what people are used to and as I've become so used to the touchpad and multitouch capabilities on MacBooks, I find myself being less productive and more frustrating with using the mechanical keyboard I have at home for gaming on my desktop and the mouse.  Outside of gaming, I feel more relaxed and comfortable using the MBP keyboard and touchpad.  But again this is a matter of personal preference and what people are used to.  So if you tell me you prefer using a keyboard and mouse, this is your personal preference that is neither right or wrong.

 

Right now I'm a professional photographer and cinematographer, and I also travel a lot.  So having a portable workstation is obviously important for me.  I already carry a lot of camera gear and accessories, sometimes my bags are tightly packed that there's little extra room for much else.  Hence I am definitely not going to be buying a portable machine that's thick or heavy.  I've found the thickness and weight of a 15" rMBP an acceptable extra I have to carry.  And the unibody design is well done that I am not worried about it getting crushed by my gear.

 

So I choose to buy the machine(s) that I can trust to be reliable.  If you feel you don't want to use a MBP for photo editing, that's fine.  Your preference.

 

As for the number of ports, I don't plug in too many devices at the same time.  At most my MBP has 3 cables connected.  Power cable (when I am near an outlet), external USB drive I use for backup storage, and either a USB key/memory card reader or USB cable to charge my phone.  It's a portable workstation I use when I am away from my more powerful desktop, why am I going to be connecting so many extra devices I don't need or even have in my bags?

 

FYI, my camera bags do not have this amount of gear. (none of these are photos of my gear, I don't have a "what's in my bag" photo)

 

 

This is the amount of stuff I typically have in just one of my bags. And I usually have 2-3 bags minimum, and sometimes more because I also take lights, light modifiers, support stands, chargers, spare batteries, backdrops, additional accessories.

[Dackzy]

9 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

3D work...

Why do you think I said that they suck at it?

Yes Pro people use laptops, but they use W series ThinkPads and the new P series and laptops like that, aka workstation laptops.

 

You don't need a very powerful laptop for illustrator, as long as you keep the project fairly small, I have a 2640m about a 6200u in performance and then I have a quadro NVS4200m, not great specs, but I can do a fair bit of work and since I have a Quadro I can use that for hardware acceleration, where a RX, R9 and GTX card would just sit and idle, because autoCAD only has support for FIrepro and Quadro.

14 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Keyboard

Keyboard is very personal prefference, the old macbook keyboard is a bit too shallow for me, nice keyboard, but too shallow for my liking and the new one hah, no way I am going to use that. I like mech keyboards and as many people say a ThinkPad keyboard is the best laptop keyboard, the only upgrade would be a mech keyboard.

19 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Nipple/touchpad

I have never had a problem with multi touch on my T420s and I mean never, all gestures work 100% all the time, palm rejection also works 100% all the time. I sometimes use the little nipple, but only really when I have to scroll a lot. My touchpad is very worn down now, but works fine all the time. Also physical left and right button , I hate not havning a physical left and right button.

23 minutes ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

SNIP

Well how would you feel if your wifi turned off when you plugged in a usb drive? Yeah that is a problem right now, if you connect it to a external screen then the external screen flickers green.

 

For photo editing, that is just 100% down to what OS you like. 

Yeah I know how much a cinematographer needs to carry around, I can understand the macbook then, because it is slimmer than most windows laptops and it is often lighter.

I have never seen or had a more reliable laptop than a top end ThinkPad, they are kinda known for being able to tak a huge beating and still work.

 

Also remember you aren't the only type of pro.

 

You should always pick a laptop with the OS you like the most, unless all the laptops with that OS is useless for your usecase. Apple has two programs where it is a clean win to them, but the rest is mostly personal preference. 

 

I hoped Apple would step up their game this gen, but it does not look like they did, in any way, TBH I would rather have a 2015 MBP than a late 2016 MBP.

[AkiraDaarkst]

37 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Also remember you aren't the only type of pro.

Did I ever say that I'm the only type of pro?  But the people who come here to ask for some advice about MBPs tend to be people who want to use them for photo and video editing.

 

38 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Why do you think I said that they suck at it?

Yes Pro people use laptops, but they use W series ThinkPads and the new P series and laptops like that, aka workstation laptops.

 

You don't need a very powerful laptop for illustrator, as long as you keep the project fairly small, I have a 2640m about a 6200u in performance and then I have a quadro NVS4200m, not great specs, but I can do a fair bit of work and since I have a Quadro I can use that for hardware acceleration, where a RX, R9 and GTX card would just sit and idle, because autoCAD only has support for FIrepro and Quadro.

This is a matter of common sense, if someone buys the wrong tool to do the work then they probably lack it.  I don't think anyone who plans to use Autodesk Inventor should/would really consider buying a MBP.  In fact, Inventor is a program that runs only on Windows.  Now AutoCad also runs on OSX, but then again, anyone who plans to use AutoCad on OSX should be considering the Mac Pro or an iMac and NOT a MBP.

 

 

Again, keyboard and touchpad/trackpad, all personal preferences and I have no problems using the one on my MBP.  And I find my productivity increased by at least 200%.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Well how would you feel if your wifi turned off when you plugged in a usb drive? Yeah that is a problem right now, if you connect it to a external screen then the external screen flickers green.

I am aware of this, and it's one of the reasons (though very minor) why I am not getting the 2016 version.  I already bought a 2015 version, fully rigged out, last year.  Also, because this is sort of a radical change in Apple's design of the MBP I am going to wait at least another year for Apple to resolve all the potential bugs.

 

 

By the way, the ThinkPad I would ever consider buying will cost the same if not more than a fully rigged out MBP.  But the P70 is not necessary for me because I don't use any of the applications that would take advantage of the P70's horsepower.

[LoveGamers]

I may try my hand at getting an eGPU for my Late 2013. I've read that it can potentially work, a 1060 or even a 1050ti in an eGPU would literally solve all my problems. 

[abazigal]

Here's a early review of the 15” mbp. 

https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/10/macbook-pro-review-video-editor/

Quote

Carter’s conclusion is that the new 15-inch model he was using (he doesn’t detail specs), is more than capable of handling daily editing in FCP X with 5K ProRes footage. He also notes that machine “tears strips off ‘superior spec’d’ Windows counterparts in the real world.”

Quote

When it comes to addressing the issue of dongles that might be necessary for pros now that the new MacBook Pro has all USB-C ports, Carter explains that it isn’t an issue for his setup: “I already use USB-C Samsung T3 SSD’s as my external drives. These things are super fast and have the footprint of a credit card. The only change here is that I don’t need a USB-A to C cable to use them now, they’ll plug straight in.

Quote

The rest of the review mostly focuses on the Touch Bar, which Carter notes he quickly warmed up to and started using to replace keyboard shortcuts after initially being skeptical.

Make of it what you will, but it seems that early kneejerk criticism of the new MacBook Pro simply won't apply to the majority of users. 

[Pendragon]

4 hours ago, abazigal said:

Make of it what you will, but it seems that early kneejerk criticism of the new MacBook Pro simply won't apply to the majority of users. 

Wtf are you saying. This guys is basically the guy we've been saying that SHOULD be getting a macbook pro. A video editor on FCP. 

 

7 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Again, keyboard and touchpad/trackpad, all personal preferences and I have no problems using the one on my MBP.  And I find my productivity increased by at least 200%.

Oh ofc. Honestly, though, once you got a good keyboard shortcut map memorized in your head, trackpads are slow. I honestly blame excel for making me a shortcut guy because I hate taking my hands off the keyboard. OSX has some reasonable mapping of shortcuts like switch desktop to right is like control-left arrow. I honestly prefer shortcuts to trackpad if I can. But Macbook trackpad is the best. 

 

5 hours ago, LoveGamers said:

I may try my hand at getting an eGPU for my Late 2013. I've read that it can potentially work, a 1060 or even a 1050ti in an eGPU would literally solve all my problems. 

They do work. They run TB2. Check out the Akito TB2 Enclosure or the Bizon Box.

 

7 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

This is a matter of common sense, if someone buys the wrong tool to do the work then they probably lack it.  I don't think anyone who plans to use Autodesk Inventor should/would really consider buying a MBP.  In fact, Inventor is a program that runs only on Windows.  Now AutoCad also runs on OSX, but then again, anyone who plans to use AutoCad on OSX should be considering the Mac Pro or an iMac and NOT a MBP.

But for some things like excel man. I'm in business and excel is basically life, and Macbook shortcuts are the worse fucking things of life. Mostly because on Mac all the shortcuts gets changed. Then because heavy excel (I mean like HEAVY, custom plugins to Bloomblerg and CapIQ, with custom functions and multi thousand auto equations and well as functions that draw data from outside database) doesn't work properly on Macbooks. I'm just telling people that Macbooks aren't meant for excel work. This is purely in reference to the OP's question about actual performance vs specs. 

[AkiraDaarkst]

1 hour ago, Pendragon said:

But for some things like excel man. I'm in business and excel is basically life, and Macbook shortcuts are the worse fucking things of life. Mostly because on Mac all the shortcuts gets changed. Then because heavy excel (I mean like HEAVY, custom plugins to Bloomblerg and CapIQ, with custom functions and multi thousand auto equations and well as functions that draw data from outside database) doesn't work properly on Macbooks. I'm just telling people that Macbooks aren't meant for excel work. This is purely in reference to the OP's question about actual performance vs specs. 

Blame Microsoft for this.  I only use Word for writing some papers, it works fine on OSX for what I need to do.  I don't use the office suite seriously on OSX since I don't need to.  If you use those applications seriously then you should buy the tool (i.e. computer) that can support what you need to do.

[D2ultima]

I wrote a lot.

16 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

Cheap laptops?  I buy laptops with specs that I feel comfortable with, which is often around the top-of-the line'ish.  The average I spent is around $2000 each time.  I have never bought a laptop that cost less than $1500.

You say this, but then

16 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

I've had less software crashes on mine than with any non OSX laptop (i.e. Windows laptops from Compaq, HP, Dell, Asus) that I've used.

 

My last 3 Windows laptops were from Asus

You also say this. You've been using garbage machines this whole time. Unless you've been using workstation-grade notebooks like Elitebooks/Zbooks from HP or the Precision M series from Dell, it really doesn't matter how much you paid. Got to break it to you.

 

16 hours ago, AkiraDaarkst said:

First the OEM copy of Windows it came pre-installed with also had a ton of adware that I had to remove.  Well almost all Windows pre-builts you buy comes with adware.  In the end every time I buy any Windows pre-builts I just format the drive and install a fresh copy of Windows with a license I own.

 

After a year or so of use, Windows starts slowing down.  I use a wide variety of software and applications, but not all the time.  After some projects, I uninstall the stuff I no longer need.  Uninstalling software in Windows does not mean it removes all the files and registry information.  After a while all of them pile up.

 

Moving over to OSX in 2011 (with a MacBook Air) was the best choice I ever made.  I could now focus more on getting work done and spend less time dealing with any issues OS related.  A year later I gave away that Air to my brother and bought the first generation Retina MacBook Pro 15 inch.

 

Essentially, with Windows laptops I find myself buying a new one no more than every 2 years.  With a MacBook Pro, I find myself replacing them less frequently.

 

I drop my plastic composite Windows laptop onto a marble floor from 24 inches in height, the hinge connecting the screen and body broke easily.  I once dropped my 2012 retina MBP in a similar situation (fell asleep with the MBP on my chest late one night working in a hotel room), a slight dent in one corner of the screen, about 1 inch of the left side of the screen was cracked, but still could use the remainder.  When I got back from my trip, Apple replaced the screen for free even though I had already passed my warranty period.

 

Right now the only Windows rig I use is my custom built desktop editing station.  Even then I had to format the SSD and reinstall Windows 7 because Windows 10 was becoming an annoying bitch, full of so many bugs, even though the only things I install on this rig are Adobe CC suite and Steam games.

 

My experience with Windows, starting from Windows 3.1 (actually I used versions before 3.1 when I was a kid but I didn't own my own computer then) with every version up to Windows 10 has been all over the map.  Windows 2000, ME and Vista are probably among the worst I've ever had.  With OSX, smooth sailing all the way.

 

I have B.Sc and M.Sc degrees in Computer Science, Software Engineering, Computer Engineering, so I know what I'm doing when I use a computer.

 

I don't buy MBPs or OSX because I think they're the industry standard for people who work with multimedia.  I buy them because they're reliable, robust, well designed machines that are pretty sleek and lightweight, fits well into my camera bags and doesn't add that much extra weight or bulk to the amount of gear I carry.

Yeah, almost all. Not all, though. Installing Windows fresh is good, if you have access to the notebook's drivers somewhere.

 

No, it does not. This happens if you don't take care of it well. This is an "it can", not "it does". There's a VERY large difference. I have, for the last few years, been capable of keeping my windows such that when a reinstall takes place, it feels exactly the same. Managing start up programs and updates and whatnot makes it easy. It's still "cluttered" compared to a fresh install after a year, but it's not slowed down at all, and you can manage whether or not programs leave things in your registry by using certain uninstaller programs.

 

If you have random OS-related issues, I can wholeheartedly say it's on you. OS X using first party programs is far superior in optimization and whatnot to Windows; certainly. But it doesn't mean that OS X is required to keep a system for a long time without an OS reinstall.

 

Because you bought crappy ones.

 

Apple's warranty is indeed great, won't argue with you there. But again, you're checking some crappy machines. My D900F all-plastic from Clevo I dropped so many times... not of my own volition, but sometimes I tripped, and once I had my messenger-style bag strap burst while walking to class, dropping it onto the concrete floor from about 3 feet in height. There was a small dent in the plastic that I had to point out to people, and no other issues. Apple doesn't cheap out on the aluminum they use to make their machines, sure, but buying a crap laptop from the people you listed above isn't going to give the same experience. Good, solid, thick plastic even trumps thin aluminum unibody. And if you want to talk about a solid laptop, nothing will get close to a Toughbook from Panasonic. 

 

Windows 10 is garbage, I concede that. No arguements there.

 

Vista's only real problems were that many machines were sold with too-weak specs for the OS (RAM amount, iGPU vRAM amount, etc) and many hardware vendor drivers and software vendor updates from XP to Vista took a long time. The OS in itself did not have much problem. Aside from exactly ONE update that I witnessed, where it broke USB plug and play (and I still know the fix; even Microsoft's techs never discovered it and told people to reinstall the OS) there was no problems, and I to this day prefer Vista over 7. Also, if you love 7 and hate Vista, know that they're basically the same OS with 7 having a GUI update to dumb it down for the average joe and a lot of easily-accessible functions hidden behind multiple menus. So you should be hating 7 as well. They're the same thing. Just like Win 8.1 and 10 are almost exactly the same thing, where 10's only difference is that it's got a lot of functionality for end users removed and a terrible shell of a start menu and useless extra features like Cortana added. And that 10 constantly breaks itself with updates.

 

You evidently stated that you do not, since you happen to run into all these things. And I don't have any degrees in anything like that, but I've apparently managed to figure it out. Degrees are mostly worthless when trying to claim your knowledge about anything, except for History, Literature and Art degrees. Take this as advice: any time you bring up your degrees to anyone as an example of how much you know, everybody who knows even a half decent amount is going to laugh at you. So you may not want to do it.

 

And for your final point...

• Reliable? If using apple first party programs or programs Apple has paid money for to get the best development attention to (like Adobe programs, which disable OpenCL hardware acceleration in Windows so Macs seem faster), then sure.
• Well-designed? Don't fucking joke with me. They sell those things half the time with too-small power bricks for the total power consumption the CPU & GPU can take, the cooling system is beyond a joke (even in the desktops this applies), it's WAY overpriced, even considering their amazing customer service and warranty, it is not capable of even using 50% of the parts inside of it without experiencing SERIOUS problems, it's designed to be thin first with functionality later, its battery life only comes from first party programs too (running even a browser like firefox on OS X can cut battery life by HOURS) and the only reason they even appear to get by at all is because they hardware accelerate *EVERYTHING* the PC does, which produces a lot less heat and uses a lot less power (though this only works with, again, first party programs). These things are the opposite of well-designed. Even a fucking Razer craptop is better than an Apple laptop, and I could write a book and a half on why Razer laptops are terrible.
• Robust? See above. Their bodies are better than most crappy machines people normally buy, sure, but they don't come close to top notch Clevos or business class notebooks like Precision Ms or Thinkpads etc. Nothing to write home about... just because most companies' consumer lines like Dell/HP/Acer/etc make sub-par crap doesn't mean that the for-par Macbooks are special.
• Sleek? Sure. No idea why this affects performance.
• Lightweight? Sure. I can get why you want this due to carrying a ton of gear, but honestly at this point a Lenovo X1 Carbon or something might be just as good.

 

Now, after all this, I want you to understand I'm not actually telling you that you should go buy and/or use a Windows laptop. What I am doing, as far as I'm concerned, are correcting misconceptions you have about Apple's laptops and OS X. If it works for you, great. You keep using it. But understand that before you go around telling someone about how good it is in your real-world usage, you need to understand that if someone isn't using everything Apple they're going to have RADICALLY different real-world usage experiences. OS X in itself impresses me in how they manage to hardware accelerate everything, and I wish that Windows would do something similar by default. It's not going to be hard to code; Google and Mozilla and Micro$haft could easily add in proper acceleration for their browsers since there's only three basic kinds of vendors (Intel, nVidia, AMD) and almost all hardware in the last four or five years should have similar hardware acceleration capabilities. But I can't in good faith tell someone that Macbooks are as good as you have said they are. It simply isn't true. I also can't tell people that most windows laptops are better; that also isn't true. What we have in the laptop community is about 95% of all notebooks being made and sold are just terrible. Either they're made to screw over a consumer by cheaping out on everything (HP/Dell/Acer/etc mainstream lines), are overpriced while mostly looking and feeling good on the outside but having crap internals (Apple, Gigabyte, Razer), are functionally limited for some arbitrary-and-usually-worthless purpose (ASUS, MSI) or just have awful QA/QC on their hardware and/or software (Clevo). The latter part can be fixed much easier than the former, but in general, there's very very very few "good" notebooks to pick from, and most of them are business-class ones.

 

And don't get me started on Windows 10 and its bullshit. I've never seen such a bad OS. It's honestly terrible nobody's making any big deal about the problems it clearly has.

11 hours ago, LoveGamers said:

I may try my hand at getting an eGPU for my Late 2013. I've read that it can potentially work, a 1060 or even a 1050ti in an eGPU would literally solve all my problems. 

They're mostly worthless. They have a lot of extra stutter and latency issues due to the overhead of going from Thunderbolt to PCI/e (something that M.2 NGFF does not have) and they bottleneck GTX 1070s and above. Also, you'd need to make certain you get one that would completely change the primary graphics adapter to the dGPU, because Optimus/Enduro is another layer of headache you do not want. Everyone only seems to care about "plug and play" which means "Optimus/Enduro", so true dGPU-only eGPU solutions are very hard to find.

 

[Dackzy]

2 hours ago, D2ultima said:

I wrote a lot.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You say this, but then

You also say this. You've been using garbage machines this whole time. Unless you've been using workstation-grade notebooks like Elitebooks/Zbooks from HP or the Precision M series from Dell, it really doesn't matter how much you paid. Got to break it to you.

 

Yeah, almost all. Not all, though. Installing Windows fresh is good, if you have access to the notebook's drivers somewhere.

 

No, it does not. This happens if you don't take care of it well. This is an "it can", not "it does". There's a VERY large difference. I have, for the last few years, been capable of keeping my windows such that when a reinstall takes place, it feels exactly the same. Managing start up programs and updates and whatnot makes it easy. It's still "cluttered" compared to a fresh install after a year, but it's not slowed down at all, and you can manage whether or not programs leave things in your registry by using certain uninstaller programs.

 

If you have random OS-related issues, I can wholeheartedly say it's on you. OS X using first party programs is far superior in optimization and whatnot to Windows; certainly. But it doesn't mean that OS X is required to keep a system for a long time without an OS reinstall.

 

Because you bought crappy ones.

 

Apple's warranty is indeed great, won't argue with you there. But again, you're checking some crappy machines. My D900F all-plastic from Clevo I dropped so many times... not of my own volition, but sometimes I tripped, and once I had my messenger-style bag strap burst while walking to class, dropping it onto the concrete floor from about 3 feet in height. There was a small dent in the plastic that I had to point out to people, and no other issues. Apple doesn't cheap out on the aluminum they use to make their machines, sure, but buying a crap laptop from the people you listed above isn't going to give the same experience. Good, solid, thick plastic even trumps thin aluminum unibody. And if you want to talk about a solid laptop, nothing will get close to a Toughbook from Panasonic. 

 

Windows 10 is garbage, I concede that. No arguements there.

 

Vista's only real problems were that many machines were sold with too-weak specs for the OS (RAM amount, iGPU vRAM amount, etc) and many hardware vendor drivers and software vendor updates from XP to Vista took a long time. The OS in itself did not have much problem. Aside from exactly ONE update that I witnessed, where it broke USB plug and play (and I still know the fix; even Microsoft's techs never discovered it and told people to reinstall the OS) there was no problems, and I to this day prefer Vista over 7. Also, if you love 7 and hate Vista, know that they're basically the same OS with 7 having a GUI update to dumb it down for the average joe and a lot of easily-accessible functions hidden behind multiple menus. So you should be hating 7 as well. They're the same thing. Just like Win 8.1 and 10 are almost exactly the same thing, where 10's only difference is that it's got a lot of functionality for end users removed and a terrible shell of a start menu and useless extra features like Cortana added. And that 10 constantly breaks itself with updates.

 

You evidently stated that you do not, since you happen to run into all these things. And I don't have any degrees in anything like that, but I've apparently managed to figure it out. Degrees are mostly worthless when trying to claim your knowledge about anything, except for History, Literature and Art degrees. Take this as advice: any time you bring up your degrees to anyone as an example of how much you know, everybody who knows even a half decent amount is going to laugh at you. So you may not want to do it.

 

And for your final point...

• Reliable? If using apple first party programs or programs Apple has paid money for to get the best development attention to (like Adobe programs, which disable OpenCL hardware acceleration in Windows so Macs seem faster), then sure.
• Well-designed? Don't fucking joke with me. They sell those things half the time with too-small power bricks for the total power consumption the CPU & GPU can take, the cooling system is beyond a joke (even in the desktops this applies), it's WAY overpriced, even considering their amazing customer service and warranty, it is not capable of even using 50% of the parts inside of it without experiencing SERIOUS problems, it's designed to be thin first with functionality later, its battery life only comes from first party programs too (running even a browser like firefox on OS X can cut battery life by HOURS) and the only reason they even appear to get by at all is because they hardware accelerate *EVERYTHING* the PC does, which produces a lot less heat and uses a lot less power (though this only works with, again, first party programs). These things are the opposite of well-designed. Even a fucking Razer craptop is better than an Apple laptop, and I could write a book and a half on why Razer laptops are terrible.
• Robust? See above. Their bodies are better than most crappy machines people normally buy, sure, but they don't come close to top notch Clevos or business class notebooks like Precision Ms or Thinkpads etc. Nothing to write home about... just because most companies' consumer lines like Dell/HP/Acer/etc make sub-par crap doesn't mean that the for-par Macbooks are special.
• Sleek? Sure. No idea why this affects performance.
• Lightweight? Sure. I can get why you want this due to carrying a ton of gear, but honestly at this point a Lenovo X1 Carbon or something might be just as good.

 

Now, after all this, I want you to understand I'm not actually telling you that you should go buy and/or use a Windows laptop. What I am doing, as far as I'm concerned, are correcting misconceptions you have about Apple's laptops and OS X. If it works for you, great. You keep using it. But understand that before you go around telling someone about how good it is in your real-world usage, you need to understand that if someone isn't using everything Apple they're going to have RADICALLY different real-world usage experiences. OS X in itself impresses me in how they manage to hardware accelerate everything, and I wish that Windows would do something similar by default. It's not going to be hard to code; Google and Mozilla and Micro$haft could easily add in proper acceleration for their browsers since there's only three basic kinds of vendors (Intel, nVidia, AMD) and almost all hardware in the last four or five years should have similar hardware acceleration capabilities. But I can't in good faith tell someone that Macbooks are as good as you have said they are. It simply isn't true. I also can't tell people that most windows laptops are better; that also isn't true. What we have in the laptop community is about 95% of all notebooks being made and sold are just terrible. Either they're made to screw over a consumer by cheaping out on everything (HP/Dell/Acer/etc mainstream lines), are overpriced while mostly looking and feeling good on the outside but having crap internals (Apple, Gigabyte, Razer), are functionally limited for some arbitrary-and-usually-worthless purpose (ASUS, MSI) or just have awful QA/QC on their hardware and/or software (Clevo). The latter part can be fixed much easier than the former, but in general, there's very very very few "good" notebooks to pick from, and most of them are business-class ones.

 

And don't get me started on Windows 10 and its bullshit. I've never seen such a bad OS. It's honestly terrible nobody's making any big deal about the problems it clearly has.

They're mostly worthless. They have a lot of extra stutter and latency issues due to the overhead of going from Thunderbolt to PCI/e (something that M.2 NGFF does not have) and they bottleneck GTX 1070s and above. Also, you'd need to make certain you get one that would completely change the primary graphics adapter to the dGPU, because Optimus/Enduro is another layer of headache you do not want. Everyone only seems to care about "plug and play" which means "Optimus/Enduro", so true dGPU-only eGPU solutions are very hard to find.
 

 

 

TBH I think windows 10 is meh, I would not say that it is vista bad, but it isn't Win 7. I use win 10 on my desktop and laptop, I choose it on my desktop, because well I want DX12 support and I need to know all the things they changed from win 7 to win 10, (fuck win 8 and 8.1), but my laptop, they forced it, I didn't really mind that it got win 10, but then I saw that my battery life went down by 2 hours and that Lenovo had made next to no drivers for my laptop for win 10. I still have it, because I cannot be arsed to reinstall win 7, so it has win 10 until it dies, which is going to take a long time... (Nothing seems to kill it)