Anti static mat

[Wheeljack699]

i need help with an anti static mat, i'll be building my pc on carpet (i'll be on carpet and the pc on a table) and where should i put the anti static mat, on the table that i'll be building on or on the carpet? and the wrist rest's alligator connector thing, what should i connect it to?

[Akadis]

i would put it onto the table if you are grounded. and with the wrist rest you mean something like this? 

if you meant that connect it to the anti static map and connect that one to a power outlet 

[Wheeljack699]

Just now, Akadis said:

i would put it onto the table if you are grounded. and with the wrist rest you mean something like this? 

if you meant that connect it to the anti static map and connect that one to a power outlet 

yeah i meant this ( sorry i mix up the names wrist rest and wrist strap lol) thank you

[Akadis]

1 minute ago, Wheeljack699 said:

yeah i meant this ( sorry i mix up the names wrist rest and wrist strap lol) thank you

then do it like i said maybe wear a pair of kork shoes or ones which are good with esd other than that you should be good to go

[Clanscorpia]

You dont need one. Linus only does it for a disclaimer. Ive built 3 PCs on carpet. Using one now. They never broke

[Akadis]

1 minute ago, Clanscorpia said:

You dont need one. Linus only does it for a disclaimer. Ive built 3 PCs on carpet. Using one now. They never broke

still it's recommended using at least a wrist band because you can damage components with a elektro static charge which can decrease life time of a part 

[Clanscorpia]

2 minutes ago, Akadis said:

still it's recommended using at least a wrist band because you can damage components with a elektro static charge which can decrease life time of a part 

Its doesnt reduce life, it kills it. Just touch the case every 10 minutes and you are golden

[Akadis]

2 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

Its doesnt reduce life, it kills it. Just touch the case every 10 minutes and you are golden

"...Even though the current passes for a very short time, the minute sizes within ICs can mean that the small interconnecting links wires or the devices in the chip itself can be fused by the amount of heat dissipated. In some instances the connection or component may not be completely destroyed. Instead it may only be partly destroyed. When this happens the device will continue to operate and may have no detectable reduction in its performance. ..."

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/esd/electronics-esd.php

 

trust me I am currently working in developement of electronic drivers and we tested it on a longterm test. We built 10 devices each, one group with ESD protection and one under bad circumstances to highlight the difference, to show the production chain that that really is a factor and we got results from not working from the start up to the same lifetime as the ones with ESD protection, but the average was around 30-40% less lifetime! So you can decide yourself if its worth it or not ^^

[Clanscorpia]

1 minute ago, Akadis said:

"...Even though the current passes for a very short time, the minute sizes within ICs can mean that the small interconnecting links wires or the devices in the chip itself can be fused by the amount of heat dissipated. In some instances the connection or component may not be completely destroyed. Instead it may only be partly destroyed. When this happens the device will continue to operate and may have no detectable reduction in its performance. ..."

http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/esd/electronics-esd.php

 

trust me I am currently working in developement of electronic drivers and we tested it on a longterm test. We built 10 devices each, one group with ESD protection and one under bad circumstances to highlight the difference, to show the production chain that that really is a factor and we got results from not working from the start up to the same lifetime as the ones with ESD protection, but the average was around 30-40% less lifetime! So you can decide yourself if its worth it or not ^^

Its not. EVERY pc component now is heavily ESD shielded. Most computer parts dont even have an entry place for electricity that can do damage. RAM is completely self contained as well as the CPU and motherboards are tested with extreme voltages and still survive them. And based on your knowledge, I am not going to trust you. Especially considering drivers are software. And how long is the lifetime? 10 days? Tell me, how did you test to see the average reduced lifetime?

[Akadis]

1 minute ago, Clanscorpia said:

Its not. EVERY pc component now is heavily ESD shielded. Most computer parts dont even have an entry place for electricity that can do damage. RAM is completely self contained as well as the CPU and motherboards are tested with extreme voltages and still survive them. And based on your knowledge, I am not going to trust you. Especially considering drivers are software. And how long is the lifetime? 10 days? Tell me, how did you test to see the average reduced lifetime?

sorry LED/Lamp drivers and we test them by letting them torn on/off 10 times an hour for a year and more (depending what they are getting used for). 

 

Yes they are shielded and you are probably good to go with just touching the case once in a while but why do you think are there still ESD signs on the bags where the components are in? And I just wanted to correct you becouse ESD has an affect on a components lifetime, which you clearly wrote that it either kills it or is fine.

[LogicalDrm]

Bare wooden table is fine. Only component which CAN be damaged if you are unlucky, is CPU. And that only when you are placing it to socket. Rest of the stuff you are handling by plastic parts or PCB anyway since touching contact surfaces is no-no anyway (finger crease). You can ground yourself by touching metal part of something connected to power outlet. Like PSUs shroud. I've built 2 PCs on wooden table sitting on carpet. Plus one on cardboard box while sitting on carpet. Plus I usually quick-fix my main PC on my bed over blanket.

[Clanscorpia]

7 minutes ago, Akadis said:

sorry LED/Lamp drivers and we test them by letting them torn on/off 10 times an hour for a year and more (depending what they are getting used for). 

 

Yes they are shielded and you are probably good to go with just touching the case once in a while but why do you think are there still ESD signs on the bags where the components are in? And I just wanted to correct you becouse ESD has an affect on a components lifetime, which you clearly wrote that it either kills it or is fine.

Generally it either kills or its fine. By the time the ESD does damage, its usually either to old or something thats more likely to break breaks. I dont think having a slightly shocked resistor is going to reduce your GPUs FPS by 10 FPS.

[rhyseyness]

19 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

Its not. EVERY pc component now is heavily ESD shielded. Most computer parts dont even have an entry place for electricity that can do damage. RAM is completely self contained as well as the CPU and motherboards are tested with extreme voltages and still survive them. And based on your knowledge, I am not going to trust you. Especially considering drivers are software. And how long is the lifetime? 10 days? Tell me, how did you test to see the average reduced lifetime?

You are wrong.

Since you won't believe him, believe me.

I'm an electronic engineer and have been for a substantial period of time.

 

ESD is real and a huge factor in latent failure of electronic components.

Companies wouldn't spend millions of pounds on ESD protective equipment if it wasn't an issue.

 

RAM, CPUs and motherboards are probably the most susceptible of all components within a PC.

A person can easily build up 20+KV just from walking around on carpet.

This is more than enough to cause catastrophic or latent damage to these components.

Furthermore, with the ever reducing size of components and transistors within ICs, the risk of ESD damage becomes greater.

 

Damage caused by ESD WILL reduce the life of the components.

That's a fact.

Just because you haven't experienced it does not mean it does not happen.

[rhyseyness]

9 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

Generally it either kills or its fine. 

Sorry to double post, but this is literally not true.

Most ESD causes latent damage, not catastrophic.

This means it will fail further on in it's life cycle, and not at the point of the ESD damage occurring.

[Clanscorpia]

37 minutes ago, rhyseyness said:

 

ESD is real and a huge factor in latent failure of electronic components.

Companies wouldn't spend millions of pounds on ESD protective equipment if it wasn't an issue.

 

Damage caused by ESD WILL reduce the life of the components.

1. Something I never said doesnt cause failure. Never said, explained why it doesnt make that big of a difference

2. That was my first point, stuff is very ESD resistant now

3. Again, never said it didn't, just said that at that point, its either obsolete or something else is broken. For a PC, if it break after 10 years is it really a concern? 90% of people upgrade after 3-5 years

35 minutes ago, rhyseyness said:

Sorry to double post, but this is literally not true.

 

Fine means wont break in under 7-10 years

[rhyseyness]

21 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

1. Something I never said doesnt cause failure. Never said, explained why it doesnt make that big of a difference

2. That was my first point, stuff is very ESD resistant now

3. Again, never said it didn't, just said that at that point, its either obsolete or something else is broken. For a PC, if it break after 10 years is it really a concern? 90% of people upgrade after 3-5 years

Fine means wont break in under 7-10 years

1. My point is it does make a big difference
2. Stuff is less ESD resistant than it used to be. Companies spend millions so they don't damage it, not to make it less likely for you to damage it
3. Point taken, for consumer electronics taking life off of components isn't such a big deal, but why risk it? Furthermore you will have no idea if you took 1 day, 1 month, 1 year or 1 decade off of the life of the component from ESD damage. It will just fail sooner, and that could mean within it's usable lifetime. Why not just take the precautions to be sure you're not risking your components dying early?

[Clanscorpia]

Just now, rhyseyness said:

1. My point is it does make a big difference
2. Stuff is less ESD resistant than it used to be. Companies spend millions so they don't damage it, not to make it less likely for you to damage it
3. Point taken, for consumer electronics taking life off of components isn't such a big deal, but why risk it? Furthermore you will have no idea if you took 1 day, 1 month, 1 year or 1 decade off of the life of the component from ESD damage. It will just fail sooner, and that could mean within it's usable lifetime. Why not just take the precautions to be sure you're not risking your components dying early?

Touching my case every 5 minutes is more that enough. Most PC builders have been doing it for decades. And have you seen ASUS' testing? Look it up. Tell me stuff is less resistant. Plus, it manufacturing, they have to make sure they dont break it. Im not saying I dont take precautions but a 30 dollar mat is useless 

[rhyseyness]

1 minute ago, Clanscorpia said:

Touching my case every 5 minutes is more that enough. Most PC builders have been doing it for decades. And have you seen ASUS' testing? Look it up. Tell me stuff is less resistant. Plus, it manufacturing, they have to make sure they dont break it. Im not saying I dont take precautions but a 30 dollar mat is useless 

Components and transistors becoming smaller and smaller makes things more susceptible to ESD damage.

Smaller components simply can't handle the higher voltages and currents from high levels of ESD.

Thus, stuff is less resistant.

 

Touching your case every 5 minutes does not remove all electrical charge.

All the time you're not touching your case, you're building charge on yourself.

Also, the mat ensures that the components do not become charged up either, so it's definitely not useless.

Remember, ESD can occur in either direction (you to the component or the component to you), and both are equally "dangerous."

 

Yes, touching the case every 5 minutes is probably enough for most builders.

99% of the time, it won't be a problem.

But when it's so easy to eliminate that 1% risk, why wouldn't you?

 

I'm by no means saying "if you take no ESD precautions your PC will break after a short period of time."

I'm saying "why risk your PC breaking after a short period of time when the precautions are so cheap and easy."

 

When I build PCs I only use a wrist strap (don't bother with a mat).

However at work we have ESDPA (the PA is protected areas) where there are mats, grounding points and the air is de-ionised.

You have to wear an ESD protective lab coat and wrist strap.

As I said, I'm not saying you need to go to this kind of an extreme, but when it's so easy to reduce the risk, I just don't understand why anyone would take it.

 

Each to their own I suppose.

[Clanscorpia]

Just now, rhyseyness said:

Components and transistors becoming smaller and smaller makes things more susceptible to ESD damage.

Smaller components simply can't handle the higher voltages and currents from high levels of ESD.

Thus, stuff is less resistant.

 

Touching your case every 5 minutes does not remove all electrical charge.

All the time you're not touching your case, you're building charge on yourself.

Also, the mat ensures that the components do not become charged up either, so it's definitely not useless.

Remember, ESD can occur in either direction (you to the component or the component to you), and both are equally "dangerous."

 

Yes, touching the case every 5 minutes is probably enough for most builders.

99% of the time, it won't be a problem.

But when it's so easy to eliminate that 1% risk, why wouldn't you?

 

I'm by no means saying "if you take no ESD precautions your PC will break after a short period of time."

I'm saying "why risk your PC breaking after a short period of time when the precautions are so cheap and easy."

 

When I build PCs I only use a wrist strap (don't bother with a mat).

However at work we have ESDPA (the PA is protected areas) where there are mats, grounding points and the air is de-ionised.

You have to wear an ESD protective lab coat and wrist strap.

As I said, I'm not saying you need to go to this kind of an extreme, but when it's so easy to reduce the risk, I just don't understand why anyone would take it.

 

Each to their own I suppose.

30 dollars is quite a bit on a budget. You also work as an engineer. You need stuff like that. When your not moving you dont make much charge, so every 5 minutes is mroe than enpugh

[Clanscorpia]

2 minutes ago, rhyseyness said:

Components and transistors becoming smaller and smaller makes things more susceptible to ESD damage.

 

Most exposed components are quite big

[Akadis]

3 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

30 dollars is quite a bit on a budget. You also work as an engineer. You need stuff like that. When your not moving you dont make much charge, so every 5 minutes is mroe than enpugh

you can get a wrist strap for about 5-10 bucks

 

[Clanscorpia]

1 minute ago, Akadis said:

you can get a wrist strap for about 5-10 bucks

 

I was talking about mats

[Akadis]

2 minutes ago, Clanscorpia said:

Most exposed components are quite big

you know that inside as an example a cpu there are millions of small parts so I think that is waht @rhyseyness was talking about

[Clanscorpia]

Just now, Akadis said:

you know that inside as an example a cpu there are millions of small parts so I think that is waht @rhyseyness was talking about

INSIDE. Its protected by a PCB, a heatsink, and this black things under the IHS

[Wheeljack699]

ok thank you all for the help but i asked because it's going to cost $4000 and i don't want to waste my money lol