Jagged Shadows,Pop in,Low LOD and jagged aa

[I_dont_know200]

7 hours ago, CanCeralp said:

Short answer, Yes.

When we are talking about resolutions we must define two different terms: Image quality and error reduction.

 

Image quality is about how close we can look at the screen, how clear and crisp the image is. This is where higher resolutions shine and take the crown. 

 

Error reduction is about how small the aliasing rate, compared to non-error areas of the screen. 

 

When DSR and VSR are in use, they match (even sometimes exceed) the error reduction rate of the same resolution of a non-VSR/DSR screen. That means 4K DSR/VSR has as low aliasing as a native 4K screen, or even lower because of the additional downfiltering. (native 4K just displays it, VSR/DSR 4K is first processed and then downscaled)

Interesting, what role would the ppi value play with those factors in mind, since i noticed this problem in particulary the aliasing issue is less to not noticeable at all on objects with "enough" available pixels to display the image.

My theorie would be high ppi meaning a smaller monitor with a 4k display might solve alot of these issues.

[CanCeralp]

On 2/5/2020 at 2:02 AM, I_dont_know200 said:

Interesting, what role would the ppi value play with those factors in mind, since i noticed this problem in particulary the aliasing issue is less to not noticeable at all on objects with "enough" available pixels to display the image.

My theorie would be high ppi meaning a smaller monitor with a 4k display might solve alot of these issues.

PPI simply tells us how close we can get to the screen. 

 

For example, for a 1080p, 16:9 screen, the closest we can sit to it is aprrx. 1,5x of the diagonal size. For a 22" screen that value is 33". If we sit NY closer to the screen, we can see the pixels (not the aliasing). For a 4K screen, that's half of it. So, it's approx. 16,5" distance for a 22" 4K screen. 

 

There are various ways to calculate it but one can use web pages, too. 

 

However "seeing the pixels" here refers to seeing the structure and gaps between the physical pixels. It is not the same as aliasing. Aliasing is a matter of high contrast difference among neighbors or the previous state of a pixel. The stair effect can be less visible when displayed from further distance. However motion artifacts (temporal aliasing) will still be there. 

 

PPI is only useful when comparing two different resolution screens. Higher resolution display defines a closer distance for the viewer to sit in front, that's all. After a certain distance, a 4K screen is no different than 1080p display to human eye. 

[Bearhugger]

This is true.

And bear in mind, 4k ONLY fixes Aliasing (partially) and not textures pop-in and other bad stuff

[Kladmaster]

Ive been reading this topic for quite some time now, coming up with some ideas and watching how some people are going in circles, mixing apples with oranges here etc.
I would like to just tell my opinion here.
I work in company, where we test videogames. Obviously I cannot say which ones Anyway, I had dozens of gaming PCs, Xboxes, PS4s getting through my hands and I can assure you, ALL of them have AA issues, just like discussed here.

SO
Is HW at the fault here?

NO its not. It is highly improbable that so many devices showcase the exact same level of graphical issue as discussed here. Only exception could be some specific artefacting of GPU or RAM, etc., however this is not connected to the general issue discussed.

Is it electricity? 

Again I am saying NO. Unless it is some worldwide virus spreading through the power grids everywhere... and yeah, that sounds frankly too stupid to be true. As I said bunch of times before, in my company, there is extra care put in proper power solutions to all the HW that is running around here. I doubt that in my home, at my friends homes, in my company that is a modern fancy IT building, would be the same sort of "dirty electricity" going on.
Electricity or some sort of EMI could be a culprit, but I believe you would again see much different and more serious behaviour, that jaggies on fine geometry or that it would make your GPU too slow to render in objects/shadows into your game.

 

In my point of view, its more like rooted deep in nowadays game engines, graphical drivers and API. Just like @CanCeralp nicely explained already: Modern games (mostly the Dx11 era) are running on much more complex game engines. The geometry in them is extremely complex, add complex light and shadowing effects with bunch of other crap in it, like subsurface scattering, particle effects and what not...add some filters, postprocessing and other effects... you are creating a nightmare for the GPU to render a single frame, yet alone 60+ in a second. I would also add the pixel responsiveness of current LCD display technology, various sharpness clearing, resolutions and their scaling, PPI and combine it and we got ourselves one huge mess. 
When I am testing very early stages of game builds, their optimisation is frankly terrible, even if you are running one of the strongest HW you can get. And there are sometimes some commands we use, if our fps is tanking to 10-20fps, to optimise the engine to run smoother, but decreasing the quality greatly. While using those, you can immediately notice texture/shadow pop ins, general low quality of rendering, but the game runs stable fps. You can then switch to higher resolutions, adjust the graphic sliders to the highest, the base bad looks just stay. 
So imagine, that developers are implementing such optimisation shortcuts into their games via patches, drivers... if they cannot achieve stable performance, that is mostly aimed for consoles/mid tier PCs. We can think of several few years old games, that if you crank them up to the top (GTA5, Crysis, AC...) not even the 1080ti (which was the absolute top in the days) could keep up and not drop below "acceptable" levels. Or think about the infamous Aliens: Colonial Marines, that ran the E3 demo on nearly a CGI movie level rendering, yet the final product was far from it (this is actually very true to many other trailers and marketing for gmes).  That might give you some thought to think about. 

In my case... Well, I see those issues everywhere yes... all the gameplay or videos about games I watch on YT, I see the same bad AA in there, as I see it on my PC. 
I decided not to waste more time trying to fix it, as it is probably impossible. Some games look worse, some better... but in general, if I adjust the sharpness filter to blur out the most horrid AA and while playing, mostly focus on the central part of the game and avoid looking "into distance", Ive learned to live it it. 
 

[CanCeralp]

@Kladmaster all the hopes are on the 8xTSAA with Halton sequence jittering + a Gaussian based sharpener. 

[lobolaw1984]

Guys, there is a solution. The question is whether the solution is so complex that it is over our heads.

[Princep_A]

10 hours ago, lobolaw1984 said:

Chicos, hay una solución. La pregunta es si la solución es tan compleja que está sobre nuestras cabezas.

What are you talking about?

[Princep_A]

23 hours ago, Kladmaster said:

Ive been reading this topic for quite some time now, coming up with some ideas and watching how some people are going in circles, mixing apples with oranges here etc.
I would like to just tell my opinion here.
I work in company, where we test videogames. Obviously I cannot say which ones Anyway, I had dozens of gaming PCs, Xboxes, PS4s getting through my hands and I can assure you, ALL of them have AA issues, just like discussed here.

SO
Is HW at the fault here?

NO its not. It is highly improbable that so many devices showcase the exact same level of graphical issue as discussed here. Only exception could be some specific artefacting of GPU or RAM, etc., however this is not connected to the general issue discussed.

Is it electricity? 

Again I am saying NO. Unless it is some worldwide virus spreading through the power grids everywhere... and yeah, that sounds frankly too stupid to be true. As I said bunch of times before, in my company, there is extra care put in proper power solutions to all the HW that is running around here. I doubt that in my home, at my friends homes, in my company that is a modern fancy IT building, would be the same sort of "dirty electricity" going on.
Electricity or some sort of EMI could be a culprit, but I believe you would again see much different and more serious behaviour, that jaggies on fine geometry or that it would make your GPU too slow to render in objects/shadows into your game.

 

In my point of view, its more like rooted deep in nowadays game engines, graphical drivers and API. Just like @CanCeralp nicely explained already: Modern games (mostly the Dx11 era) are running on much more complex game engines. The geometry in them is extremely complex, add complex light and shadowing effects with bunch of other crap in it, like subsurface scattering, particle effects and what not...add some filters, postprocessing and other effects... you are creating a nightmare for the GPU to render a single frame, yet alone 60+ in a second. I would also add the pixel responsiveness of current LCD display technology, various sharpness clearing, resolutions and their scaling, PPI and combine it and we got ourselves one huge mess. 
When I am testing very early stages of game builds, their optimisation is frankly terrible, even if you are running one of the strongest HW you can get. And there are sometimes some commands we use, if our fps is tanking to 10-20fps, to optimise the engine to run smoother, but decreasing the quality greatly. While using those, you can immediately notice texture/shadow pop ins, general low quality of rendering, but the game runs stable fps. You can then switch to higher resolutions, adjust the graphic sliders to the highest, the base bad looks just stay. 
So imagine, that developers are implementing such optimisation shortcuts into their games via patches, drivers... if they cannot achieve stable performance, that is mostly aimed for consoles/mid tier PCs. We can think of several few years old games, that if you crank them up to the top (GTA5, Crysis, AC...) not even the 1080ti (which was the absolute top in the days) could keep up and not drop below "acceptable" levels. Or think about the infamous Aliens: Colonial Marines, that ran the E3 demo on nearly a CGI movie level rendering, yet the final product was far from it (this is actually very true to many other trailers and marketing for gmes).  That might give you some thought to think about. 

In my case... Well, I see those issues everywhere yes... all the gameplay or videos about games I watch on YT, I see the same bad AA in there, as I see it on my PC. 
I decided not to waste more time trying to fix it, as it is probably impossible. Some games look worse, some better... but in general, if I adjust the sharpness filter to blur out the most horrid AA and while playing, mostly focus on the central part of the game and avoid looking "into distance", Ive learned to live it it. 
 

I think we're mixing problems, for me AA is only the tip of the iceberg. What bothers me is that in all games, less than 10 meters around, textures do not render, objects pop-in without more, there isn't any level of detail on all games in ultra configurations. Before I played many years only PS4, i didn't notice any of this. Now its in all devices, in all youtube videos, everywhere but not for the people hardware, we see this problem everywhere because we have the problem, and directx don't affect youtube in anything.
It can't be directx.
What's the only way of communication of PC, PS4, and mobile phone? Electricity.

[CanCeralp]

34 minutes ago, Princep_A said:

I think we're mixing problems, for me AA is only the tip of the iceberg. What bothers me is that in all games, less than 10 meters around, textures do not render, objects pop-in without more, there isn't any level of detail on all games in ultra configurations. Before I played many years only PS4, i didn't notice any of this. Now its in all devices, in all youtube videos, everywhere but not for the people hardware, we see this problem everywhere because we have the problem, and directx don't affect youtube in anything.
It can't be directx.
What's the only way of communication of PC, PS4, and mobile phone? Electricity.

The only common thing among them is not electricity, it is the development preferences. 

The game makers prefer it to be like that. Without convincing them, there is no way that we can solve it. The only way we, users, can make a game that is free of those errors is that we create our own game engine and our own game. Only then we can solve it once and for all. 

[Princep_A]

23 hours ago, CanCeralp said:

The only common thing among them is not electricity, it is the development preferences. 

The game makers prefer it to be like that. Without convincing them, there is no way that we can solve it. The only way we, users, can make a game that is free of those errors is that we create our own game engine and our own game. Only then we can solve it once and for all. 

They are not going to do anything because this problem affects few users.

And I insist on electricity cause one day appears in one device, next day you have this shit everywhere.

[BrainlessGuyofTheSilence]

I am suffering this problem since 2012....

It's not hardware related at all, Don't even think about it and don't waste your money on new rig for this with a little hope of fixing it.

I tested around 200 high end PC in my Friends Internet Cafe and all of them had this, hardwares are variable not a single set up. 

 

Anyway it's software related, but it did not just randomly pop up for me, I messed up in AMD's catalyst with AA settings (I didn't even know what that was settings even for.) But i was able to fix it by messing with settings (Setting global AA to SSAO etc) but then again it occured once more so i was once more was able to fix it by unistalling GPU drivers and installing oem Drivers with the DVD that came with GPU in the box. I have no idea what happened, maybe it writed new settings and buggy one gone ? it was HD 6570. anyway it came back, since then from getting new rig to low level formatting hardrive did change nothing.

Possible hypothesis is that buggy settings or whatsoever being stored to mobo, GPU and maybe CPU's l2 cache or whatever there. (If it was only GPU or HDD, changig them could fix it but nah everything still there no matter what i do, new rig only fix temporerly it comes sooner or later.)

 

Dudes that blames electricity are needs chill out there's not such thing dirty electriticy unless you mean by dirty interrupting spesific data that transfered via electrical signals, PSU alongside with every electrical device is there for your dirty electricty and its not have any data in it. I am a physicist student and would like to know so badly how an pure energy can get dirty ? (Expect data transfer) and also we don't call it dirty we call it non ionizing radiation.

 

Moral of the story; Just please don't waste any more money for fixing it.

[Princep_A]

I just uploaded this video, I know everyone here knows the problems but I can't just play with that shit:(

[Kladmaster]

@Princep_A
Your "electricity" issue happening overnight might have very well been cause by "optimisation/performance fix" update/patch that your game downloaded and you started to see these pop in issues.
Even if your top tier PC could actually handle the ultra detail and full distance draw of the engine, the devs/GPU manufacturers rather go the safer way and set fixed limits in there no matter of your settings, to make the mid tier PCs and console handle at least the barebone 30/60fps - your FH4 part of the video. 
Also with so complex polygonal objects these days, they have to use dithering atop of renderer, to save up GPU resources - thats what you point on in your Battlefront part of the video.

[TheCrow-AU]

 

All my games were running fine and then suddenly I get this problem with all my games. Edges of objects are choppy and when I move the edges flicker, I get this problem in every single game. No matter how high I turn on AA. Tried reinstalling windows, changing settings in Nvidia Control Panel, updating drivers, even tried to contact Nvidia and they said they didn't know what was happing. I even got a whole new PC but the same thing happens jagged/flickering edges in all games. This is crazy I've seen so many ppl having the same problem but nobody has yet to find a fix. I would love to get back into PC gaming but I can't just because every game I play looks like crap! If any of you guys at Linus Tech Tips are reading this, please find a fix you would help not only me but hundreds more. I've been having this problem since 2014, no joke. Watch the vid for an example! 

[DaoNayt]

If anyone can post a video of what their games looked like BEFORE the problem, that would be great.

[Princep_A]

1 hour ago, DaoNayt said:

If anyone can post a video of what their games looked like BEFORE the problem, that would be great.

 

I have this video of the outer worlds before the issue

[DaoNayt]

1 hour ago, Princep_A said:

 

I have this video of the outer worlds before the issue

Can you record gameplay in the same location now so we can see the differences?

[Sanspooky]

I repeat buy a gaming laptop and powerbank to recharge it

[Asasinas]

Stop saying that this issue is related to game engine. It's clearly not, because absolutely EVERY single game is affected by this issue.

[TheCrow-AU]

7 hours ago, Asasinas said:

Stop saying that this issue is related to game engine. It's clearly not, because absolutely EVERY single game is affected by this issue.

I agree with you, but what the hell could it be? I've had this problem for 4 years now, even got a whole new PC and the same thing happen  

[slayer007]

After struggling with this issue for 4 years it finally got fixed.

[TheCrow-AU]

3 minutes ago, slayer007 said:

After struggling with this issue for 4 years it finally got fixed.

How did you fix it? 

[slayer007]

56 minutes ago, TheCrow-AU said:

How did you fix it? 

It got fixed automatically....

 

[Folleri]

47 minutes ago, slayer007 said:

It got fixed automatically....

 

I got this issue for a 6 month 1060 6 and when I upgrade to rx5700 it fixes but only for 50-60 days, and here we go again... I think this is must be a driver issue 

[Kladmaster]

18 hours ago, Princep_A said:

 

I have this video of the outer worlds before the issue

I can see close shadows drawing/popin with the Ambient Occlusion on them.
Dont see much jaggies, but thats because the video is compressed and 720p, plus its during night, when the light sources on fine geometry do not manifest that much.