Why does everyone love Linux so much?

[jagdtigger]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

There is no reason to run Linux on the Desktop.

Like you would know anything about that..... (Your post reeks of the fact that you never used any modern distro.)

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

I profoundly disagree with you and this post from beginning to end. I'm not gonna bother refuting you because it will easily be a 6 pages essay. 

 

With that being said, I will point out PS4 operating system is BSD, macOS is Unix, and if you think the open source version for either of them are popular on desktop, you are just ignorant. 

 

Chrome OS is basically a build on top of Gentoo Linux. Ponder that for a minute if you are talking whether or not googles corporate take on open source Linux is popular just like if Apples take on open source Darwin OS is popular. 

Please point me to a fortune 500 company who runs Linux but then uses the web version of office 365. I practically assure you none exist, and I doubt Google eats it's own dogfood here. The entire corporate world runs on MS Office, and if we didn't want it to be that way, we would not have allowed companies like WordPerfect and Wordstar to be acquired by other businesses just to sit on the IP and then get lost. Running your business from the cloud through a web browser is one data center fire away from taking your business with it.

 

MacOS X and the PS4 are NOT LINUX. They have underlying UNIX componets derived from FreeBSD, but you never have to touch the terminal in OSX, and it's not even available on the PS4. There are no Linux flavors that work as well as OS X, and it will likely stay that way. 

 

Google has been barking up the wrong tree for a decade with how they approach open source. Google dictates to it's staff what flavor of Linux they are allowed to use, because that's the only flavor they want to support. That's the same issue with using Linux on the web server, if the managed data center only supports CentOS, you aren't going to be installing FreeBSD on it.

[wasab]

17 minutes ago, Kisai said:

MacOS X and the PS4 are NOT LINUX. They have underlying UNIX componets derived from FreeBSD, but you never have to touch the terminal in OSX, and it's not even available on the PS4. There are no Linux flavors that work as well as OS X, and it will likely stay that way. 

I said they are Unix/Unix like, never have I mention they are linux.  You ever touch the open source Darwin? You did claim if apple made it free of charge on any devices, it would take over. Well, you got the Darwin, why don't you try it and see how user friendly it is. 

 

Being so dependent on Microsoft office is nothing to be proud of. This is like relying on a calculator instead of learning to solve math or leaning on a type writer instead of learning to write. I have never touch Microsoft office suite in my entire academic career. Everything can be handle by Google docs or libre office. If you do work in any IT related industry, not knowing terminal is a huge handicap. 

[Kisai]

8 minutes ago, wasab said:

I said they are Unix/Unix like, never have I mention they are linux. I am seriously doubting if you ever used anything outside of Mac or windows ecosystem at all. You ever touch the open source Darwin? You did claim if apple made it free of charge on any devices, it would take over. Well, you got the Darwin, why don't you try it and see how user friendly it is. 

 

Being so dependent on Microsoft office is nothing to be proud of. This is like relying on a calculator instead of learning to solve math or leaning on a type writer instead of learning to write. I have never touch Microsoft office suite in my entire academic career. Everything can be handle by Google docs or libre office. If you do work in any IT related industry, not knowing terminal is a huge handicap. 

 

I feel you are missing the point.

 

Your average office worker, does not open the terminal. They call a phone number and some bloke in India tells them to download a tool so they can remote into their PC. You are not going to convince an Enterprise company who didn't start on Linux to switch to Linux, ever. The accountants may want to pinch pennies, but if the business, and all their clients are using word, you're not going to send them a document in something other than MS Word. That destroys productivity, and you will lose clients if they have to convert your documents over and over. MS Office is available and supported on the Desktop Mac OS X. Not Desktop Linux.

 

Open/Libre office is fine for writing a book or a resume, but you're not going to be using that in the Enterprise. And I'm saying that as someone who only uses MS Office at the office, and I use OpenOffice at home. For that once a month time I actually need it. 

[wasab]

12 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

I feel you are missing the point.

 

Your average office worker, does not open the terminal. They call a phone number and some bloke in India tells them to download a tool so they can remote into their PC. You are not going to convince an Enterprise company who didn't start on Linux to switch to Linux, ever. The accountants may want to pinch pennies, but if the business, and all their clients are using word, you're not going to send them a document in something other than MS Word. That destroys productivity, and you will lose clients if they have to convert your documents over and over.

 

Open/Libre office is fine for writing a book or a resume, but you're not going to be using that in the Enterprise. And I'm saying that as someone who only uses MS Office at the office, and I use OpenOffice at home. For that once a month time I actually need it. 

In the end, you are basically telling me Linux is not a viable desktop OS because it doesn't run microsoft office. What are we gonna do if microsoft office is never invented? Lol. 

 

For desktop OS use, Microsoft office is far from something that's consider essential for many desktop users. Applications are more and more moving into the cloud, traditional desktop apps are dying. You are not gonna do well, or any bussinesses going to do well for that matter, in the future if you rely so much on outdated technology. 

 

 

[Kisai]

7 minutes ago, wasab said:

In the end, you are basically telling me Linux is not a viable desktop OS because it doesn't run microsoft office. What are we gonna do if microsoft office is never invented? Lol. 

 

For desktop OS use, Microsoft office is far from something that's consider essential for many desktop users. Applications are more and more moving into the cloud, traditional desktop apps are dying. You are not gonna do well, or any bussinesses going to do well for that matter, in the future if you rely so much on outdated technology. 

 

 

Please let me know when Autodesk makes HTML5 versions of AutoCAD. I used MS Office as an example because that's the piece of software that makes or breaks the "switch to something else" viable. No MS Office for Linux? You are not going to have your users rely on using Office through chrome.

 

Too often, Linux evangelists put forward the "Linux is better, cheaper" argument when they ignore the entire IT cost of supporting it. Which isn't to say Microsoft is better, but you're not going to have support for "edge" cases. You use Linux on your own desktop/laptop entirely at your own risk in the enterprise, and when IT says they won't support it, then you are going to be told to install Windows 10 Enterprise, or go find another job. 

 

There are staffers that I know who would much prefer to be using their personal Mac at work and can not because it won't be permitted on the network.

[wasab]

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

Please let me know when Autodesk makes HTML5 versions of AutoCAD.

I do not use these softwares and neither do most users. You are simply nitpicking niche areas that require softwares not available on the Linux platform. 

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, wasab said:

Applications are more and more moving into the cloud, traditional desktop apps are dying. You are not gonna do well, or any bussinesses going to do well for that matter, in the future if you rely so much on outdated technology. 

No 'industry trend' (I highlight this because it's the cloud providers saying this so #marketing, be warned) is going to counter what the user community wishes to use, never going to work. It's like here with our Super Gold Card, this is a retirement card that you get at age 65 which give you access to a number of benefits. Well they just released a Super Gold Card app and much less than 50% of 65+ people have a smart phone and worse than that the ones that do mostly have no idea what an 'App' is, because all you can realistically buy is a smart phone and they only want it for calling and txt.

 

"The future is Apps", well the people that need to use can't and don't want it so it will fail.

 

Applications have barely changed in the business world, we may now host our Exchange mailboxes in the cloud (O365) but how we use them and access them has not.

Edited October 1, 2019 by leadeater

[wasab]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

No 'industry trend' (I highlight this because it's the cloud providers saying this so #marketing, be warned) is going to counter what the user community wishes to use, never going to work. It's like here with our Super Gold Card, this is a retirement card that you get at age 65 which give you access to a number of benefits. Well they just released a Super Gold Card app and much less than 50% of 65+ people have a smart phone and worse than that the ones that do mostly have no idea what an 'App' is, because all you can realistically buy is a smart phone and they only want it for calling and txt.

 

"The future is Apps", well the people that need to use can't and don't want it so it will fail.

 

Applications have barely changed in the business world, we may no host our Exchange mailboxes in the cloud (O365) but how we use them and access them has not.

Tell me. How much time does a consumer spend on his computer that does not involve connecting to the internet?

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, wasab said:

Tell me. How much time does a consumer spend on his computer that does not involve connecting to the internet?

What does this have to do with anything, Cloud is a fake buzz word and doesn't change what was already a thing before the word was used. Cloud is meant now mostly to talk about Azure, AWS, GCP etc and these are not necessary towards what you are trying to suggest with your statement. I was perfectly able to purchase a Dell laptop on their website years before these existed and so were millions on others.

 

Internet != cloud.

[wasab]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

What does this have to do with anything, Cloud is a fake buzz word and doesn't change what was already a thing before the word was used. Cloud is meant now mostly to talk about Azure, AWS, GCP etc and these are not necessary towards what you are trying to suggest with your statement. I was perfectly able to purchase a Dell laptop on their website years before these existed and so were millions on others.

 

Internet != cloud.

And what do you think makes AWS and the likes a cloud? Lol. Fundenmentally, cloud providers are large data centers that own both the large facility and numerous servers that they rent out to others, bussinesses or individuals. That's basically it. 

 

If you purchase a subscription from AWS, you are basically renting their server hardwares, either to serve as a webserver or any other use. Like I said, how much time does a user spend on his computer that does not involve sending data over a network?

[leadeater]

4 minutes ago, wasab said:

And what do you think makes AWS and the likes a cloud? Lol. Fundenmentally, cloud providers are large data centers that own both the large facility and numerous servers that they rent out to others, bussinesses or individuals. That's basically it. 

 

If you purchase a subscription from AWS, you are basically renting their server hardwares, ether to serve as a webserver or anything use. Like I said, how much time does a user spend on his computer that does not involve sending data over a network?

So? What actually is your point. How are you going to make 65+ aged people use something they either cannot access or do not wish to use or learn. There are many things you learn when working in the IT field and one of those is that you service the user, not the other way round. If they do not like it, understand it, wish to use it then they will not. It doesn't matter if it's technically better, or will help them, or be better for them this is no different than trying to get a child to eat the vegetables, it's possible through a lot of effort and time.

 

You cannot force upon people which they do not want, that I fear is the point you missed.

[wasab]

Just now, leadeater said:

So? What actually is your point. How are you going to make 65+ aged people use something they either cannot access or do not wish to use or learn. There are many things you learn when working in the IT field and one of those is that you service the user, not the other way round. If they do not like it, understand it, wish to use it then they will not. It doesn't matter if it's technically better, or will help them, or be better for them this is no different than trying to get a child to eat the vegetables, it's possible through a lot of effort and time.

 

You cannot force upon people which they do not want, that I fear is the point you missed.

My point is if you don't use the web, you are not up to date with modern times. Web apps are what most people spend their time on. For that purpose, any operating system that runs a browser is more than capable to be a desktop OS.

[Kisai]

9 minutes ago, wasab said:

My point is if you don't use the web, you are not up to date with modern times. Web apps are what most people spend their time on. For that purpose, any operating system that runs a browser is more than capable to be a desktop OS.

Please tell me when I can run Microsoft Office on my Nintendo DS.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, wasab said:

My point is if you don't use the web, you are not up to date with modern times. Web apps are what most people spend their time on. For that purpose, any operating system that runs a browser is more than capable to be a desktop OS.

And if nobody wants to use Linux? Standing around saying people should try it won't actually change the situation, you have to make the product better and more attractive to use than what is currently being used and the only people that can say that is the case is the majority of the population and that is shown by market share. Smart phones and Apps became widely popular through the simplicity and function not by their customization and utility, which is where Linux keeps focusing on rather than the first two that we know works.

 

But as it pertains to business usage web apps are not a requirement or even future thinking. Data connected applications started in the business world and using a web browser doesn't actually enhance the usability or user experience. You can compliment with these, for cases like off network access, but I can and have been able to for more than a decade publish the full application over the internet and make it run and feel exactly if it were local.

 

There's a clear split between how you should treat a desktop and a mobile device and applications already take these differences in to account. 

[Dat Guy]

4 hours ago, Kisai said:

MacOS X and the PS4 are NOT LINUX.

That makes "a BSD" the second-most used operating system outside the server and embedded worlds, just saying.

[wasab]

5 hours ago, Kisai said:

Please tell me when I can run Microsoft Office on my Nintendo DS.

Does your Nintendo DS scare you with it's terminal as well? Or do you see that as too unpopular a game console?

[wasab]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

And if nobody wants to use Linux? Standing around saying people should try it won't actually change the situation, you have to make the product better and more attractive to use than what is currently being used and the only people that can say that is the case is the majority of the population and that is shown by market share. Smart phones and Apps became widely popular through the simplicity and function not by their customization and utility, which is where Linux keeps focusing on rather than the first two that we know works.

 

But as it pertains to business usage web apps are not a requirement or even future thinking. Data connected applications started in the business world and using a web browser doesn't actually enhance the usability or user experience. You can compliment with these, for cases like off network access, but I can and have been able to for more than a decade publish the full application over the internet and make it run and feel exactly if it were local.

 

There's a clear split between how you should treat a desktop and a mobile device and applications already take these differences in to account. 

Tell me. How much of your work involves using Windows and macOS only apps?

 

Know what's the most common computer application I ever used at my office jobs? A browser to log on to the company website and check the clients profile. 

 

People do not use Linux mostly due to it not preinstall on most oem systems. It has little to do with the fact it is less viable than macOS or windows as a desktop OS. 

[Kisai]

4 hours ago, wasab said:

Tell me. How much of your work involves using Windows and macOS only apps?

 

Know what's the most common computer application I ever used at my office jobs? A browser to log on to the company website and check the clients profile. 

 

People do not use Linux mostly due to it not preinstall on most oem systems. It has little to do with the fact it is less viable than macOS or windows as a desktop OS. 

The most common application is Microsoft Office, hands down. Linux is not a supported platform.

 

And Dell offers Linux as a pre-install option. Enterprises do not use the preinstalled OS, they just wipe the machine and use their enterprise Win10 image that they have separate license management, and Office 365 is installed as part of that image. Nothing else.

 

As I've said, and you've ignored, Linux is not a viable desktop platform, and that comes entirely from the lack of MS Office on it. The web browser, and "cloud services" is not a replacement for productivity software. Adobe Photoshop, not a HTML5 app. MS Office, not a HTML5 app. Autodesk AutoCAD, not a HTML5 app. These are all "top 10 products enterprise users require" and none of them run on Linux, but all of them run on MacOS X. Why don't Enterprises switch to OSX? Because they can't get OSX on a whitebox PC. This is why you only see MacOS X in desktop publishing, video/film editing, and music industries, because they've been using MacOS since the 1980's and you aren't going to throw out their workflow under that OS unless all those same apps come with it. "But (app name) is an open source alternative"... no, it is not. "The Gimp" has been marketed as Photoshop for Linux and is available on Windows and OSX and it's performance and features are not even close to Photoshop.

 

Corel Draw, Paint Shop Pro, WordPerfect, and so on  are commercial alternatives, why aren't they more popular? Because they have a different workflow and different user language than what they've been accustomed to. It also doesn't help Corel's case that they were absent from the Mac Platform for 18 years. 

 

But do you understand why all these programs are not available on Linux? It's a chicken and egg scenario. People won't switch to Linux because the software they need to use doesn't exist on it (and no, web-browser based apps are not a substitute, at all) , and software vendors won't support Linux because there is no userbase to justify that investment. 

 

As I've said, multiple times, the Linux Desktop will never be a thing. You will not be able to give away chromebooks to schools and get life-long cloud-services users when all that does is setup the expectation that chromebooks and google's services have no value. This isn't what they use at home, or what their parents use. As far as I know, and from third-hand conversations, kids equate chromebooks as being a replacement for the text-book, that is it. They go home and write their homework on whatever they have at home.

 

[wasab]

13 minutes ago, Kisai said:

snip

Since when does desktop computer = word proccesor? Is that how you wanna define what makes an OS desktop? So all the windows and macOS that do not have these applications install are a lesser desktop computer?

 

Dell makes one notebook and that is their premium Ultrabook in limited quantity. You can hardly compare to the huge scale of other preinstall laptop. 

 

And you are right. People are so into macOS that Apple needs to wait until 2006 for it to rival Linux on laptop and desktop. 

 

[leadeater]

7 hours ago, wasab said:

Tell me. How much of your work involves using Windows and macOS only apps?

Windows lots of it, I don't use Mac OS much at all beyond managing the Endpoint backup software because backups falls under my job role.

 

We have 400 managed Windows applications, that means packaged and deployed by our desktop management team.

 

7 hours ago, wasab said:

People do not use Linux mostly due to it not preinstall on most oem systems. It has little to do with the fact it is less viable than macOS or windows as a desktop OS.

Linux is less viable to most people, Mac OS actually further ahead here by a lot and in many ways is easier to use than Windows.

[wasab]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Windows lots of it.

Like?

 

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Linux is less viable to most people, Mac OS actually further ahead here by a lot and in many ways is easier to use than Windows.

Does that "viable" include carrying an USB dongle and lacking Ethernet port on lower end model? 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Does that "viable" include carrying an USB dongle and lacking Ethernet port on lower end model? 

Does this matter to most people who are happy with wireless? But this is a hardware issue not an OS issue so it doesn't really relate to Mac OS being a more viable option to the majority compared to Linux due to it's ease of use and focus on user experience.

 

1 hour ago, wasab said:

Like?

Is there any point listing them, it's not like you care or it matters really. Linux will forever be a non option until the development focus shifts away from fit everyone's needs, all customization possibilities over to a focused effort of user experience and consistency. People do actually prefer only one option, one way of doing things when it comes to computers, and I use people in the wider sense/collective.  It's only going to take one distribution to do this, Linux as a whole doesn't need to change but someone needs to take up the mantle and do what is actually required to round off the parts that will always leave it lacking until it's done.

 

I personally dislike Mac OS quite a lot but if I had to pick it would be that over Linux, if I had to recommend to average person between just those two it would be Mac OS.

 

But if you want a list here is just some:

Spoiler

Group Policy Editor

Active Directory Users and Computers

ADSI Edit

Failover Cluster Manager

DFS Manager

Computer Manager

IIS Manager

Windows Server Update Services

Configuration Manager Console

Visio (I use many vendor provided stencils that only come in Visio format)

Project

Rest of Office Suite

SQL Management Studio

Commvault (this is multi platform but parts are only or best on Windows)

But it's a pretty pointless list because I could produce a similar list of Linux only software I use too.

 

I don't pick favorites I use what fits best and have to support what people actually want to use.

[wasab]

26 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I don't pick favorites I use what fits best and have to support what people actually want to use.

And yet you said Linux is less viable. I hope you do realize the irony and contradiction here. 

 

Can macOS from 2019 be install on MacBooks from 2008? People like to say it is a pain to get drivers and hardwares like network adaptors to work on Linux and such and yet never point out that macOS literally has no drivers for many of your hardwares and will refuse to be install on your computer at all outside of anything approved by apple. The irony. 

[Dat Guy]

25 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I could produce a similar list of Linux only software

I dare you to name one that is Linux-only.