Apple: FBI Intentionally changed Iphone passcode to support their backdoor campaign

[Roawoao]

6 minutes ago, Stuff_ said:

Well, apple can rollback the original hash. But they still don't know the original password?

That isn't actually of any relevance as apple can just bypass the server side password check easily as part of maintenance/law enforcement ops.

 

What may have actually occurred is that Apple gave the FBI a login token that worked with the account and the FBI changed the password which is a logical thing to do as others who may also know it could login and mess around with the online account or try to send a non-reversible remote wipe command to the iPhone.

 

 However they can still just revert back to the starting state. There is no need for the original password on the iCloud system if your Apple where everything is server side and there is no user controlled key encryption for iCloud data. Even if the terrorist deleted the old iCloud backups Apple can just retrive them from their backups of the backups. Once it is in the "cloud" it can be hard to get it out of there for good.

[Stuff_]

Just now, Roawoao said:

That isn't actually of any relevance as apple can just bypass the server side password check easily as part of maintenance/law enforcement ops.

 

What may have actually occurred is that Apple gave the FBI a login token that worked with the account and the FBI changed the password which is a logical thing to do as others who may also know it could login and mess around with the online account or try to send a non-reversible remote wipe command to the iPhone.

 

 However they can still just revert back to the starting state. There is no need for the original password on the iCloud system if your Apple where everything is server side and there is no user controlled key encryption for iCloud data.

I mean, at this point, the FBI can just get a court order for Apple to reset the Apple ID password (to something they agree on) to log into iCloud via a web browser, no?

 

Unless the FBI will then say that the critical information they need isn't apart of any iCloud backup (which may be true, because the terrorist may have been using WhatsApp, who knows).

 

[Doobeedoo]

Wow such a mess, they really want a backdoor so bad that it's sad.

[Roawoao]

Just now, Stuff_ said:

I mean, at this point, the FBI can just get a court order for Apple to reset the Apple ID password (to something they agree on) to log into iCloud via a web browser, no?

 

Unless the FBI will then say that the critical information they need isn't apart of any iCloud backup (which may be true, because the terrorist may have been using WhatsApp, who knows).

 

Well I don't think iCloud access is a problem the FBI has the new password and Apple could easily revert back if need be. The issue is that there is never going to be any more automatic backups from that phone if it already stopped automatically backing up more than a month before the attack. And the most logical and simple reason is that the terrorist just turned off iCloud backups in the phone's settings (one tap is all it takes). There is no way you can use the server side (unless apple already has some magic backdoor) to turn this phone controlled switch back on.

 

The FBI is interested in what is on the phone in that period between the attack and when the backups stopped because again logically speaking the run up to the attack is the most interesting time frame.

[Nowak]

15 minutes ago, Roawoao said:

This requires access to the device first if it is locked and fully encrypted there is no way your going to sneak an app onto it.

 

Also it looks like overpriced garbage you could assemble the same hardware kits and even get the low level dumping of flash chips on boards from amazon, digikey, stuff like that.

True.

 

This isn't my field of study, so I don't really claim to be an expert on it, but whatever. I've only used it to perform an acquisition on a phone once. Based on what I know, the FBI doesn't need Apple's help in getting into the phone, but again, I'm no expert.

[Roawoao]

2 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Wow such a mess, they really want a backdoor so bad that it's sad.

They didn't change the phone pin code they just changed the iCloud password likely because they only got a login token from Apple not the actual password. And it makes logical sense to protect the online account from others that may know the terrorists iCloud password and try later to send a non-reversible erase phone command.

 

iCloud password != phone pin code.

[Roawoao]

4 minutes ago, Daring said:

True.

 

This isn't my field of study, so I don't really claim to be an expert on it, but whatever. I've only used it to perform an acquisition on a phone once. Based on what I know, the FBI doesn't need Apple's help in getting into the phone, but again, I'm no expert.

The FBI doesn't have some magic hacking tool to get into this phone. Some are arguing they are asking for Apple to make one for them but that isn't even really true either as even a specialized version or flash memory dump doesn't stop users from using strong encryption passwords in the future. (TouchID helps a lot on that aspect to make it usable although there is a security weakness to have the bit of usability)

[Nowak]

Just now, Roawoao said:

The FBI doesn't have some magic hacking tool to get into this phone. Some are arguing they are asking for Apple to make one for them but that isn't even really true either as even a specialized version or flash memory dump doesn't stop users from using strong passwords in the future. (TouchID helps a lot on that aspect to make it usable although there is a security weakness to have the bit of usability)

Maybe I've been describing it wrong the whole time, because I remember doing a flash memory dump on an HTC phone with some Cellebrite thing and looking at flash memory dumps for various LG feature phones with XRY Viewer. Then again, I'm not great with words.

[Roawoao]

Just now, Daring said:

Maybe I've been describing it wrong the whole time, because I remember doing a flash memory dump on an HTC phone with some Cellebrite thing and looking at flash memory dumps for various LG feature phones with XRY Viewer. Then again, I'm not great with words.

These phones lacked full disk encryption so you don't need to decrypt anything to read them.

[Stuff_]

4 minutes ago, Roawoao said:

Well I don't think iCloud access is a problem the FBI has the new password and Apple could easily revert back if need be. The issue is that there is never going to be any more automatic backups from that phone if it already stopped automatically backing up more than a month before the attack. And the most logical and simple reason is that the terrorist just turned off iCloud backups in the phone's settings (one tap is all it takes). There is no way you can use the server side (unless apple already has some magic backdoor) to turn this phone controlled switch back on.

 

The FBI is interested in what is on the phone in that period between the attack and when the backups stopped because again logically speaking the run up to the attack is the most interesting time frame.

I think, in this case, the FBI will never be satisfied with anything until they have a proper backdoor. 

 

Couldn't apple develop, yet another "custom" OS which will automatically enable the backup of the iCloud account? This is just, meh, at this point in time.

[Nowak]

Just now, Roawoao said:

These phones lacked full disk encryption so you don't need to decrypt anything to read them.

true.

[Roawoao]

15 minutes ago, Stuff_ said:

I think, in this case, the FBI will never be satisfied with anything until they have a proper backdoor. 

 

Couldn't apple develop, yet another "custom" OS which will automatically enable the backup of the iCloud account? This is just, meh, at this point in time.

Not possible if the user volume isn't first decrypted. They could make a version that dumps the flash memory to the iCloud in raw but that is the same thing as doing a hardware dump which is something anyone can do with good electronics skills. (For the iPhone 5c)(Secure enclave will be more tricky to say the least)

 

I too think the FBI/government would love to have open access to all phones but I don't think Apple's reasoning is very strong it is mostly just PR spin instead of actual technical matters. I personally think security through diversity (mish mash of everything) is a better concept than a security through one pillar (apple). If no one is locked into any particular ecosystem then you can freely move about. Its like PCs if you don't like Microsoft you can install Linux, OpenBSD, .... write your own OS/software if you really wanted to. It would be great if Smartphones had that wide compatibility model and if you want to lock a hardware stack in e-fuses would allow you to have the same ROM type security as Apple's baked in system just this time it can be your own self signed certificate at the root of the hardware chain.

[DarkBlade2117]

Wow my friend called this, he said the FBI could brute force the phone within 24 hours by doing something to avoid the timer when getting the pass code wrong.