Two balanced outputs, one unbalanced cable?

[Enderman]

Not to mention, the whole point of a sub is to run frequencies that your monitors can't, which would greatly reduce the chance of them being out of phase.

if I had two subs then it could be a much bigger problem

[EndlessOyster]

if I had two subs then it could be a much bigger problem

If you have 3 and revert the phase on one of them face it the other direction to the pair you got your self some directional subs.

[KaminKevCrew]

If you have 3 and revert the phase on one of them face it the other direction to the pair you got your self some directional subs.

Except for that bass isn't directional anyway.

[vanished]

Except for that bass isn't directional anyway.

And speakers are generally considered higher quality if they sound the same in all directions, so directionality is actually not good anyway

[KaminKevCrew]

And speakers are generally considered higher quality if they sound the same in all directions, so directionality is actually not good anyway

I miss spoke. I meant that bass isn't positional; you can't tell what direction it comes from.

[vanished]

I miss spoke. I meant that bass isn't positional; you can't tell what direction it comes from.

no, you weren't wrong.  it isn't directional - bass radiates out from a sub in all directions with pretty much no regard for what direction the speaker is actually facing.  And this is idea; if all speakers were like this, more speakers would sound good

[EndlessOyster]

I miss spoke. I meant that bass isn't positional; you can't tell what direction it comes from.

Directionality of a speaker is dependent of the frequency and the size of the speaker. Since we cant get a sub big enough to be bigger then low frequencies there omni directional.

But by placing one sub out of phase facing the other direction reduce the SPL behind the subs making the front of the subs louder then the back, so there for directional.

[SSL]

Directionality of a speaker is dependent of the frequency and the size of the speaker. Since we cant get a sub big enough to be bigger then low frequencies there omni directional.

But by placing one sub out of phase facing the other direction reduce the SPL behind the subs making the front of the subs louder then the back, so there for directional.

 

Bzzt. No. The human ear does not have the ability to localize frequencies below 100Hz, 80Hz if we're being picky. This is regardless of relative SPL, time delay, or what have you.

[Enderman]

Bzzt. No. The human ear does not have the ability to localize frequencies below 100Hz, 80Hz if we're being picky. This is regardless of relative SPL, time delay, or what have you.

how come i can clearly hear sound coming from the left when I put my sub to my left?

[SSL]

how come i can clearly hear sound coming from the left when I put my sub to my left?

 

A few reasons.

• Your ability to localize sound extends lower than most people
• Your sub is crossed over high a high enough frequency to localize
• Your sub is distorting or otherwise emitting noise (such as from the port) at localizable frequencies
• You are localizing your sub based on the upper harmonics played through your mains, which creates the illusion of localized bass

[vanished]

Bzzt. No. The human ear does not have the ability to localize frequencies below 100Hz, 80Hz if we're being picky. This is regardless of relative SPL, time delay, or what have you.

That may be true, but this is completely correct:

 

Directionality of a speaker is dependent of the frequency and the size of the speaker. Since we cant get a sub big enough to be bigger then low frequencies there omni directional.

 

Someone here posted these three links and I watched them a while back.  Can't remember where it was (pretty sure it was the first link at least) but at one point he mentions the fact that bass is not directional; that it radiates out from the sub in all directions equally (unlike a higher frequency speaker which can be extremely directional at times).

 

[SSL]

That may be true, but this is completely correct:

 

Not wrong, but an extremely roundabout way of describing it. Diffraction is indeed proportional to wavelength, and objects on the scale of loudspeakers and typical listening rooms do not cause what we consider to be "bass" to diffract by a meaningful amount - thus the sound is "omnidirectional", or in other words radiates in all directions. A sufficiently large speaker, or baffle, would of course effect directional low frequency sound saves.

 

However; this is distinct from localization, which is the psychoacoustic process by which the human auditory system identifies the position of a sound in the surrounding three-dimensional space. Oyster is confusing and conflating "omnidirectional" - or conversely "directional" - with "localizable". Humans are incapable of localizing low frequencies because the human head is not large enough to cause diffraction of the incoming sound wave. Additionally, low frequency wavelengths are too long for inter-aural time differences to manifest as a meaningful spatial cue. As a result, there is no scenario where a sub-woofer can be localized, assuming that the crossover frequency is low enough.

[EndlessOyster]

Bzzt. No. The human ear does not have the ability to localize frequencies below 100Hz, 80Hz if we're being picky. This is regardless of relative SPL, time delay, or what have you.

Well I don't know about that, but it still doesn't change the fact that the front of the subs would be drastically louder then the back, and I promise you will know the difference.

Your other point about not being able to position it, I can see as being true from my experiences but in this case if you did walk 360 around a stage and they had this set up you would know where the subs are located by the simple fact you lose 40dB by stepping a meter past them.

[spwath]

Not wrong, but an extremely roundabout way of describing it. Diffraction is indeed proportional to wavelength, and objects on the scale of loudspeakers and typical listening rooms do not cause what we consider to be "bass" to diffract by a meaningful amount - thus the sound is "omnidirectional", or in other words radiates in all directions. A sufficiently large speaker, or baffle, would of course effect directional low frequency sound saves.

However; this is distinct from localization, which is the psychoacoustic process by which the human auditory system identifies the position of a sound in the surrounding three-dimensional space. Oyster is confusing and conflating "omnidirectional" - or conversely "directional" - with "localizable". Humans are incapable of localizing low frequencies because the human head is not large enough to cause diffraction of the incoming sound wave. Additionally, low frequency wavelengths are too long for inter-aural time differences to manifest as a meaningful spatial cue. As a result, there is no scenario where a sub-woofer can be localized, assuming that the crossover frequency is low enough.

So would an elephant be able to localize lower frequencies than us?

[SSL]

So would an elephant be able to localize lower frequencies than us?

 

Probably in theory, at least.

[Lutkeveld]

Go ask them

 

In reality subwoofers can often be localized due to the high frequency or shallow of the lowpass filter, port noise, harmonic distortion etc.

[Lutkeveld]

Directionality of a speaker is dependent of the frequency and the size of the speaker. Since we cant get a sub big enough to be bigger then low frequencies there omni directional.

But by placing one sub out of phase facing the other direction reduce the SPL behind the subs making the front of the subs louder then the back, so there for directional.

 

By the way, this statement is true guys. It's called cardiod and has to do with phase. Bass still spreads omni directional, but cancels in some places. 

It's often used in PA system, but doesn't really work in rooms.

[SSL]

By the way, this statement is true guys. It's called cardiod and has to do with phase. Bass still spreads omni directional, but cancels in some places. 

It's often used in PA system, but doesn't really work in rooms.

 

Did anyone dispute that it was true?

[Enderman]

Ok so I contacted customer support, and asked a bunch of questions, so here is a summary (for future reference, i bet more people will be googling this in the future)

 

1) on the behringer UMC404 and 404HD the main outputs (two XLR and two TRS) output the same audio, but are not "linked" and unbalancing one will not unbalance the other

 

2) the playback outputs on UMC204, UMC204HD, and other audio interfaces from the UMC series do not output audio unless you assign them as outputs in a DAW

this means you can't use them for regular windows sounds or videos, they only work when in a DAW

 

3) the behringer audio interfaces can be used as a regular default windows output, like any set of speakers or headphones

this means that you can hear all your programs and windows sounds at the same time, unlike an ASIO driver that only allows 1 program at a time to output audio

 

4) they didn't say anything about bridging pin 1 and 3 unsafe, and from my research I think that the only time when you shouldn't bridge 1 and 3 is when using the XLR for a powered output (such as between an amp and a passive PA speaker)

 

I also researched and found that XLR has 2x the level of RCA, so by bridging 1 (ground) and 3 (negative) you essentially remove the negative output so that only positive and ground are connected, and the output is only 1x instead of 2x

 

 

So what I will do is buy the UMC404HD which has the two sets of outputs, and use XLR to my monitors, and TRS to banana plugs to my subwoofer

this will unbalance the TRS outputs, but that won't affect the XLR balanced outputs

 

Hopefulyl this helps people from the future!

 

 

 

 

 

[SSL]

3) the behringer audio interfaces can be used as a regular default windows output, like any set of speakers or headphones

this means that you can hear all your programs and windows sounds at the same time, unlike an ASIO driver that only allows 1 program at a time to output audio

 

Can you explain this? I don't see how the device is analogous to a software driver. No doubt that using WASAPI will enforce exclusive mode on this device as well, if you take advantage of it.

[Enderman]

Can you explain this? I don't see how the device is analogous to a software driver. No doubt that using WASAPI will enforce exclusive mode on this device as well, if you take advantage of it.

I'm not sure as I dont own it yet, but I assume you install the driver, plug it into USB, and select it as default output device in windows sound

 

that should redirect all the audio to the interface, like a USB sound card or any other sound card would

my old asus xonar worked like that, I installed the driver and set it as default audio device

 

from everything I found on the internet, an audio interface is absolutely needed to get all windows/program audio streams out through studio monitors simultaneously

and this is an audio interface, so I would definitely hope so

will update this post once I buy it and test everything works like I expect

[SSL]

from everything I found on the internet, an audio interface is absolutely needed to get all windows/program audio streams out through studio monitors simultaneously

 

Are you sure? The windows mixer does that already. Studio monitors are no different than any other audio device.

[Enderman]

Are you sure? The windows mixer does that already. Studio monitors are no different than any other audio device.

I'm not sure what you're asking...

 

I asked them if using this audio interface I would be able to listed to all my windows sounds and programs normally (rather than just one at a time, which happens with asio drivers)

and they said yes, so I guess its pretty much the same as a USB sound card, where all audio streams pass through together

 

the thing is that studio monitors will be plugged into the audio interface, not the analog audio out from my motherboard

I know that the realtek drivers already output all audio from those 3.5mm ports, but I wanted to make sure that the audio interface (which does not use realtek drivers or windows drivers) could also output all audio

 

does that make more sense?

[SSL]

I'm not sure what you're asking...

 

I asked them if using this audio interface I would be able to listed to all my windows sounds and programs normally (rather than just one at a time, which happens with asio drivers)

and they said yes, so I guess its pretty much the same as a USB sound card, where all audio streams pass through together

 

the thing is that studio monitors will be plugged into the audio interface, not the analog audio out from my motherboard

I know that the realtek drivers already output all audio from those 3.5mm ports, but I wanted to make sure that the audio interface (which does not use realtek drivers or windows drivers) could also output all audio

 

does that make more sense?

 

Yeah.

 

You don't specifically need the interface to play all audio streams. That is handled by the Windows DirectSound audio stack by default.

 

AISO is specifically designed for bit-perfect, low-latency, direct to hardware playback. The reason you can only listen to one stream at a time with AISO (or WASAPI or kernel streaming) is because the whole point is bit-perfect reproduction. You cannot have bit-perfect with multiple streams because the streams must be mixed and re-sampled to the same bitrate before being sent to the output.

 

In any case, you shouldn't be using AISO unless a device or software package won't work without it. Use WASAPI when possible, and DS for everything else.

[Enderman]

Yeah.

 

You don't specifically need the interface to play all audio streams. That is handled by the Windows DirectSound audio stack by default.

 

AISO is specifically designed for bit-perfect, low-latency, direct to hardware playback. The reason you can only listen to one stream at a time with AISO (or WASAPI or kernel streaming) is because the whole point is bit-perfect reproduction. You cannot have bit-perfect with multiple streams because the streams must be mixed and re-sampled to the same bitrate before being sent to the output.

 

In any case, you shouldn't be using AISO unless a device or software package won't work without it. Use WASAPI when possible, and DS for everything else.

thanks