Morality question

[Master Disaster]

I am a reformed pirate, there its out there (following Linus's example).

When I was younger and couldn't afford to buy stuff I used to pirate Software, Music & Games. I've not (IMO) stolen anything since I was twenty and got a decent job with more moneyz so now buy all my stuff.

My questions comes from the one thing I do still torrent which is TV Shows.

Would you guys say downloading TV shows is stealing?

For me they're shown for free anyway so I don't see how you can steal something which you don't pay to watch, I only do it because of the stupid gap between what's shown in USA and what's shown in UK, some shows are 6 months behind.

Please keep it civil and only post if you think you can add something to the topic, I don't want this turning into a flame war.

[Jerakl]

I would torrent them.

 

the only things I really torrent are movies and shows. Because I hate the theater and I can't afford to pay for crunchyroll subscription or w/e.

[DeViLzzz]

Tv shows are not shown for free.  There is advertising paying for them.  Morally you are doing wrong when you download them and watch them.  However it many countries it is not criminal yet. For the record I got rid of cable and I am doing this over the last while but by law actually in Canada I am doing nothing wrong I believe so ....

[Volbet]

i would say it's still stealing (to the extend I see pirating as stealing)

You most likely pay for the channels (depending on the country, you also pay just to own a TV), so torrenting the shows can be considere a free way to access those shows.

There are probably also advertisment, that helps pay for the show.

 

Just because you get the channel, you don't get the rights to own the DVD box set (dumb analogy, but it serves its purpose)

[Jobbe03]

I tend to stream tv shows. If i like it, I'll buy it.

[Sumsar]

Would you guys say downloading TV shows is stealing?

No

[Paralectic]

Downloading/torrentings anything, games, movies, tv series, 3d print models etc is just copying.

 

People yelling pirating is illegal and bad can go f*ck themselves.

Ain't paying for shit movies.

 

I visit the cinema and download everything else ( except games, I buy those ).

[Master Disaster]

i would say it's still stealing (to the extend I see pirating as stealing)

You most likely pay for the channels (depending on the country, you also pay just to own a TV), so torrenting the shows can be considere a free way to access those shows.

There are probably also advertisment, that helps pay for the show.

 

Just because you get the channel, you don't get the rights to own the DVD box set (dumb analogy, but it serves its purpose)

I'm in UK so pay a TV License but all the shows I watch are aired on free to air channels so I'd get to see them anyway eventually.

[mr moose]

unfortunately many people on this forum don't know the difference between what constitutes a crime and there personal preference for moral or ethical appropriateness.

 

Having said that, it really depends on the structure of you tv in your country.  Morally it's not stealing because you are paying for the license fee, so technically you are paying.  In other countries where there is no license, then TV stations pay for the content by providing ads, if you are bypassing the ad content then technically you are not only viewing content you haven't paid for, but content that hasn't been paid for by others.  How much a tv station can charge for ad space is worked out by viewership surveys, the more views the more they can charge, if everyone stops watching tv then at one point they will not be able to afford the content.

[loccilucas]

I don't think it's stealing, because you arn't taking someone else's possession. For example, If I stole a DVD from a shop, I would have a DVD and the shop wouldn't.

But when I pirate a film, I get a film, but it doesn't take that film away from anyone else. and because of that IMO there is nothing to feel guilty about. + on some occasions if I really like the film I will infact buy a physical copy, which I wouldn't have done, had I never pirated the film.

[Volbet]

I'm in UK so pay a TV License but all the shows I watch are aired on free to air channels so I'd get to see them anyway eventually.

Well, are there adds on the free TV stations? Becuase if there is, then those pay for the TV show you watch.

By curcumventing the adds, you are basically robbing the TV station of revenue, since their add price is calculated from the number of viewers. 

[Sauron]

TECHNICALLY you can actually buy dvds for most tv series that are worth watching. That said, if a show is not available in your country or is getting a long pointless delay I can definitely get behind you. And as you say, they are shown for free (although ads are what makes them money and you don't get them through pirated copies. That said, ad providers will simply not know how many people have actually watched the show. They rely on statistics that don't take you personally into account), so I don't think you are "stealing" anything.

[TukeBean]

I usually only pirate what I can't get my hands on legally, like most american/jap TV shows.

[Sauron]

Well, are there adds on the free TV stations? Becuase if there is, then those pay for the TV show you watch.

By curcumventing the adds, you are basically robbing the TV station of revenue, since their add price is calculated from the number of viewers. 

 

At least where I live, tv stations have no way of accurately determining how many people watch their shows. It's all based on statistics made on a small fraction of the population with the explicit permission of those people (I think most of them get paid for the "service" too). They have no idea if you, person who is not part of the statistic, have seen a certain ad or not. Hence you really aren't cutting into their profits at all. The only "missed profit" would be in a situation where the dvds of the series are available for purchase and you prefer to pirate it.

[mr moose]

At least where I live, tv stations have no way of accurately determining how many people watch their shows. It's all based on statistics made on a small fraction of the population with the explicit permission of those people (I think most of them get paid for the "service" too). They have no idea if you, person who is not part of the statistic, have seen a certain ad or not. Hence you really aren't cutting into their profits at all. The only "missed profit" would be in a situation where the dvds of the series are available for purchase and you prefer to pirate it.

 

Correct, but as the statistical viewership drops because people are pirating then so does the revenue for the tv station.  What this means in reality will be debated forever until we either have no tv stations left or content creators find a new way to fund their productions.

[Sauron]

Correct, but as the statistical viewership drops because people are pirating then so does the revenue for the tv station.  What this means in reality will be debated forever until we either have no tv stations left or content creators find a new way to fund their productions.

 

Well, that responsibility lies solely on the polled families who pirate the shows they are paid to watch on tv, right? I, or you, have no real influence on that.

[mr moose]

Well, that responsibility lies solely on the polled families who pirate the shows they are paid to watch on tv, right? I, or you, have no real influence on that.

 

So are you saying it's theft if a polled family pirates but not if you aren't taking part in the surveys?

[Sauron]

So are you saying it's theft if a polled family pirates but not if you aren't taking part in the surveys?

 

I am saying it makes literally 0 difference to the content producer if a non-polled family pirates content. The act is identical, the circumstances different. If no damage whatsoever (including no lost income opportunity or whatever) is done I wouldn't call it theft...

[mr moose]

I am saying it makes literally 0 difference to the content producer if a non-polled family pirates content. The act is identical, the circumstances different. If no damage whatsoever (including no lost income opportunity or whatever) is done I wouldn't call it theft...

but it is theft when it's done by a polled family right?  So the moral is stop taking part in viewership surveys and piracy is then no longer theft or a moral dilemma. 

[Guest]

It's copying, not stealing, despite what the white knights here may say.

[Sauron]

but it is theft when it's done by a polled family right?  So the moral is stop taking part in viewership surveys and piracy is then no longer theft or a moral dilemma. 

 

gain, the act is the same, the circumstance different. It's immoral when it is actually hurting the provider in any way. Circumstance does play a part in morality in some cases, although not always.

[mr moose]

gain, the act is the same, the circumstance different. It's immoral when it is actually hurting the provider in any way. Circumstance does play a part in morality in some cases, although not always.

 

I think we'll have to disagree to disagree, because morals questions always end like this.

[Sauron]

disagree to disagree

 

Not quite sure that's what you meant there

[ionbasa]

My two cents:

If you are paying for TV content, and said content is also available through p2p means, legally, you are allowed to keep a copy for yourself so long as said content is considered "copy freely" via the CCI descritor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy_Control_Information

 

For Cable TV, there are three copy bits that are broadcast with the televised content:

0x00 - Copy freely - Content is not copy protected.
0x02 - Copy Once - A recording can be made, but that is it.
0x03 - Copy Never - the content can be recorded and viewed for 90 minutes after transmission, and is not transferable.

 

If said televised programs have the 0x00 bit, then its fair game. (I have a HD Homerun Prime btw).

 

If the content was ever broadcast via Free-To-AIR via terrestrial or satellite transmission, then its also fair game. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-air)

[xox]

MediaHint + Hulu = Bliss

 

BTW, it is illegal to torrent TV shows, but I'd say it's acceptable (I mean pfft, nobody's paying like £25/mo for Sky's package which offers it)