GTX970 vs R9-290

[Sintezza]

 

 

 

More sources: http://www.overclock...0#post_22863543

[Sintezza]

 

 

 

[Faa]

"probably" adieu AMD as my main rig.

I'm seriously thinking about a 4790K with Asus maximus 7 hero or Msi Gaming 7. swap.

And just use my AMD as second rig for virtualization, like i do allready.

 

Choices Choices lol

Well if you're just gaming and planning to use your AMD as a second PC for virtu, get the 4690K by all means really.. After I upgraded my 2600K, I really felt like "Ok.. 100 eur for 20% more performance... what was the point in it?". Multithreaded wise it's not an upgrade compared to your 8350 so I understand why you would want an i7 - but for gaming well, it's only worth it in some cases if you have multiple GPU's but in my experience I was always bottlenecked in the games I really liked. In some cases it might mean the difference between a cpu bottleneck and the GPU performing at its max, but the difference is usually 30% in terms of FPS. Choice is up to you.. The i7 is tempting, when I was trying to decide it was just yes/no/yes/no/yes/no and just pulled the trigger in the end and took the i7.

About the board, well give me a minute and I can bash ROG boards but honestly isn't the Z97-AR a better looking one? It has a separated PCB for the audio as well and a shield cover. Full black boards are rare and epic. I own by myself the RIVE, well I havent touched the OC key yet, haven't used a single ROG feature yet, I mainly bought it for its aesthetics/vrm and expandability (I never used more than 2 GPU's, 2 drives, 4 RAM slots) so it's been mainly an aesthetics choice..  Tbh can't even remember which features were Rog features anyways. Probably the only feature I use, is the clear cmos button on the IO whenever I fuck something up  

I was thinking about swapping my board with the Rampage IV Black one, again for aesthetics, I hate red/black now, and for Fan Xpert 2 (turns case fans off when pc idles, I have sleeve bearing ones so I want to save the life of them and swapping them out in my case takes ages). But why should I go with a 3 years old board again? If I'd go X99, I won't touch the rampage v extreme anymore..

Since my 3930K is an annoying power hog, its worse than a 9590 even, I can give a few advantages you'll have with z97 over x79;

- IGP, quite handy if you're streaming or if your gpu isn't working anymore or if your gpu bios flash failed etc

- You can passively cool a i7 at stock with a nh-d15 orsomething, perhaps even with a moderate OC

- VRM never overheats on them, no matter how hard you try it just doesn't happen. My vrm throttles after 20 secs if I have no airflow lol. 

- You don't need a custom loop at all, it's stupid on them, a custom loop barely makes a difference. Evo 212's can clock like crazy already on them and most of the time before you need better cooling your CPU already hitted its limit.

Over your 8350;

- Adaptive/Offset voltage; basically it only overvolts the CPU when it goes above the base clock (you overclock with the turbo clock, not the base clock). So it isn't nice to have "it's only overclocked/overvolted under some load?". It helps against degradations aswell since a PC mostly idles, it happens that CPU's ask more vcore over time to be stable again. My 2600K asked for more vcore after 3 months because I used manual vcore of 1.50V lol.

- Although your board might have it but you get fast boot, just youtube Asus fast boot, to have it like they did; all drives should be GPT formatted instead of MBR, GPU needs uefi vbios (most gpu's these days come with it), CSM fully disabled. 

- Crosshair V Formula uses only 3rd party Asmedia controllers. On Intel boards you even get USB ports that run of Intels own USB controller, they're more reliable if I'm not mistaken and have lower latency. A few usb ports on intel boards still run off 3d party controllers. Whenever you have compatibility issues, plug the usb in a different controller.

- Game at ridiculous temps like 85-90° lol, I mainly game at 75-82° that's just 9° of the Tjmax (where it shuts off). My cooler sucks.. Most people don't dare to do this but many laptops I've seen were browsing at 90°, desktop downstairs (its like an imac) has the CPU running for almost dunno 5 years above 80° >.> 

Other advantages youre aware of it. I assume your first priority is fixing your issues and then a better GPU, right? What about getting the board you like and pair it with a cheap 30 eur pentium for a short period and later on upgrade to a 4690k/4790k?

 

 

Wenn im going to switch back to Blue again, i will probably let a tear lol

Oh I remember somewhere the end of my Q9550 I realized it was underperforming, performing 5% better than some Core 2 duo LOL. I hated Intel at that point, I was waiting for the bulldozer release but they were struggling against the 2500K when it came out, atleast in the benchmarks I've seen so I just went again with Intel.. 

[Sintezza]

 

Well if you're just gaming and planning to use your AMD as a second PC for virtu, get the 4690K by all means really.. After I upgraded my 2600K, I really felt like "Ok.. 100 eur for 20% more performance... what was the point in it?". Multithreaded wise it's not an upgrade compared to your 8350 so I understand why you would want an i7 - but for gaming well, it's only worth it in some cases if you have multiple GPU's but in my experience I was always bottlenecked in the games I really liked. In some cases it might mean the difference between a cpu bottleneck and the GPU performing at its max, but the difference is usually 30% in terms of FPS. Choice is up to you.. The i7 is tempting, when I was trying to decide it was just yes/no/yes/no/yes/no and just pulled the trigger in the end and took the i7.

About the board, well give me a minute and I can bash ROG boards but honestly isn't the Z97-AR a better looking one? It has a separated PCB for the audio as well and a shield cover. Full black boards are rare and epic. I own by myself the RIVE, well I havent touched the OC key yet, haven't used a single ROG feature yet, I mainly bought it for its aesthetics/vrm and expandability (I never used more than 2 GPU's, 2 drives, 4 RAM slots) so it's been mainly an aesthetics choice..  Tbh can't even remember which features were Rog features anyways. Probably the only feature I use, is the clear cmos button on the IO whenever I fuck something up  

I was thinking about swapping my board with the Rampage IV Black one, again for aesthetics, I hate red/black now, and for Fan Xpert 2 (turns case fans off when pc idles, I have sleeve bearing ones so I want to save the life of them and swapping them out in my case takes ages). But why should I go with a 3 years old board again? If I'd go X99, I won't touch the rampage v extreme anymore..

Since my 3930K is an annoying power hog, its worse than a 9590 even, I can give a few advantages you'll have with z97 over x79;

- IGP, quite handy if you're streaming or if your gpu isn't working anymore or if your gpu bios flash failed etc

- You can passively cool a i7 at stock with a nh-d15 orsomething, perhaps even with a moderate OC

- VRM never overheats on them, no matter how hard you try it just doesn't happen. My vrm throttles after 20 secs if I have no airflow lol. 

- You don't need a custom loop at all, it's stupid on them, a custom loop barely makes a difference. Evo 212's can clock like crazy already on them and most of the time before you need better cooling your CPU already hitted its limit.

Over your 8350;

- Adaptive/Offset voltage; basically it only overvolts the CPU when it goes above the base clock (you overclock with the turbo clock, not the base clock). So it isn't nice to have "it's only overclocked/overvolted under some load?". It helps against degradations aswell since a PC mostly idles, it happens that CPU's ask more vcore over time to be stable again. My 2600K asked for more vcore after 3 months because I used manual vcore of 1.50V lol.

- Although your board might have it but you get fast boot, just youtube Asus fast boot, to have it like they did; all drives should be GPT formatted instead of MBR, GPU needs uefi vbios (most gpu's these days come with it), CSM fully disabled. 

- Crosshair V Formula uses only 3rd party Asmedia controllers. On Intel boards you even get USB ports that run of Intels own USB controller, they're more reliable if I'm not mistaken and have lower latency. A few usb ports on intel boards still run off 3d party controllers. Whenever you have compatibility issues, plug the usb in a different controller.

- Game at ridiculous temps like 85-90° lol, I mainly game at 75-82° that's just 9° of the Tjmax (where it shuts off). My cooler sucks.. Most people don't dare to do this but many laptops I've seen were browsing at 90°, desktop downstairs (its like an imac) has the CPU running for almost dunno 5 years above 80° >.> 

Other advantages youre aware of it. I assume your first priority is fixing your issues and then a better GPU, right? What about getting the board you like and pair it with a cheap 30 eur pentium for a short period and later on upgrade to a 4690k/4790k?

 

 

Oh I remember somewhere the end of my Q9550 I realized it was underperforming, performing 5% better than some Core 2 duo LOL. I hated Intel at that point, I was waiting for the bulldozer release but they were struggling against the 2500K when it came out, atleast in the benchmarks I've seen so I just went again with Intel.. 

 

 

Well i basicly never thought about a full black board to be honnest.

But you maybe got me into a new idea on that lol

My build is redblack based, but i have allot of red. (will post a picture lol).

 

But yeah like i said, the current problems i have with my board, i allready it from the start.

I tried realy everything, but it just seems to be somewhere in the pci-e bus or what not. it just latency. making the system getting unstable. audiodg.exe does has an well known leaking issue in windows 7, i found some hotfix for it that seem to improve it a littlebit, but asoon as i start to play flash multiplayer games, i get allot of lag.

I never had these lagging issues before on windows xp, on my Pentium 4 3.4 GHz with Hyperthreading.

So i assume its realy an issue in the mobo, cause everything other i allready tried. lol.

with DP latency tests i can see where its getting wrong, i can play songs in winamp or what not for a long period of times, but as soon as i enable my lan chip realcrap, DPL just start to spike in the reds, and giving me an error after 2 minutes.

I also cannot bump up my multiplier anything above 22.5 x 200 = 4.5Ghz, if i wanne go higher on  multiplier my boards keeps freezing, no matter how much voltage i add to the chip.

I think i have bad luck with my board.

Only Northbridge overclocking, i was able to achieve 4.8GHz stable at 1.44V. with multiplier on static 20 x 240 on the bus.

Im just tired of it lol

 

About the 3rd party usb controllers you are totaly right, Asus uses ASmedia controllers on AM3+ boards, Gigabyte cheap Via controllers, and the Asrock Extreme 9 uses some kind of an Eltron chip.

 

New intel Z97 platform indeed has usb 3.0 native on the southbridge, most of the time 2 or 4 ports. (depending on the price of the board)

Other 2 or 4 most of the time run from Asmedia, atleast by Asus boards.

Offcourse i prefer intel lan, over killer nik E2200 like on msi and asrock boards. Because i readed somewhere that killer nik drivers have an memory leak aswell. ( idk if this is true?)

 

I agree about the i5-4690K, however i do have the money for an i7

I was first thinking about a 5820k, because of it 6 cores, which i could use in virtualization.

However, i saw the prices of DDR4 ram, and they are a bit too expensive for my taste.

I could offcourse buy 2 sticks of 8 GB first and run them in dual channel, and upgrade a second set lateron.

However for gaming, i wont benefit from it at all.

[Sintezza]

picture of my red mess currently.

 

[Razzaa]

picture of my red mess currently.

That is a lot of red!!!!

[Sintezza]

Anyway about the GPU´s

 

GTX970 vs R9-290.

 

Seems like the 970 is the clear winner.

Unless AMD is going to do something crazy about pricing.

I personaly dont expect that they going to bring the R9-300 series any soon.

I was hoping on maybe a 380X Fiji with 3072 stream processors. or R9-390

But i suppose we not gonne see them any soon.

[Sintezza]

That is a lot of red!!!!

 

ahm ya kinda .

 

if i going to switch it will be a hell of a job switching out that cooler

i allready was thinking about a NZXT krakan X61 but meh €150,- abit too expensive for my taske.

[i_build_nanosuits]

I personaly dont expect that they going to bring the R9-300 series any soon.

I was hoping on maybe a 380X Fiji with 3072 stream processors. or R9-390

But i suppose we not gonne see them any soon.

I think at some point AMD will have to do what nvidia is doing: Making the stream processors more efficient so you'd need less of them to achieve more.They also need to make them run faster and use less energy (MUCH less for AMD)...just like nvidia did with the 900 series...but achieving this is no easy feat and you need to spend billions in R&D.

If AMD is to launch the R300 series with the current technology that they have they will give us cards with upward of 3000 streams on a gigantic die that will produce A LOT of heat!

Trowing more cores at the problem has not helped AMD in the CPU department i highly doubt it's the way to go for the GPU's either!..you can't just ignore efficiency issues forever

[Sintezza]

I think at some point AMD will have to do what nvidia is doing: Making the stream processors more efficient so you'd need less of them to achieve more.They also need to make them run faster and use less energy (MUCH less for AMD)...just like nvidia did with the 900 series...but achieving this is no easy feat and you need to spend billions in R&D.

If AMD is to launch the R300 series with the current technology that they have they will give us cards with upward of 3000 streams on a gigantic die that will produce A LOT of heat!

Trowing more cores at the problem has not helped AMD in the CPU department i highly doubt it's the way to go for the GPU's either!..you can't just ignore efficiency issues forever

 

Yeah AMD is probably going 20 nm.

But indeed with more stream processors based on GCN, you still will have a powerhungry card.

This is not a problem for me personaly, but for allot of people it will be.

[Faa]

@Sintezza 

A black board will go with everything, if you ever switch to a different theme, lets say green/black a black board will go perfectly with it. So it's a bit more "futureproof" and you'll never get bored of black Killer networks, lol, I really hate if they call something like a psu a gaming psu when a psu has nothing to do with gaming, I'll always avoid them and it wouldn't surprise me they're shit lol. On the Asus Hero page, Asus is claiming that Intel NIC's use like 7-8% less of your CPU etc - quite funny after they advertised killer networks for their cheaper H87 things. They have WiFi/bluetooth things as well, looking really forward to them and I'm honestly tired of Realtek/Atheros, hope they go bankrupt.

It's quite weird that you can get your CPU through NB clocking at 4.8GHz and not with multipliers, lol. Also bus overclocking, bclk for Sandy bridge and up, is pretty much pointless, it only gets like 1MHz higher and its hard to get it stable so it isn't worth spending your time on.

Btw, http://www.lucashale.com/timer-resolution/ - it's weird I had it by default at 1MS, with that tool I could set it to 0.5ms and DPC latency checker reports 0.5ms, going to try disable HPET high precision timer and see if that does anything.

 

[Sintezza]

@Sintezza 

A black board will go with everything, if you ever switch to a different theme, lets say green/black a black board will go perfectly with it. So it's a bit more "futureproof" and you'll never get bored of black Killer networks, lol, I really hate if they call something like a psu a gaming psu when a psu has nothing to do with gaming, I'll always avoid them and it wouldn't surprise me they're shit lol. On the Asus Hero page, Asus is claiming that Intel NIC's use like 7-8% less of your CPU etc - quite funny after they advertised killer networks for their cheaper H87 things. They have WiFi/bluetooth things as well, looking really forward to them and I'm honestly tired of Realtek/Atheros, hope they go bankrupt.

It's quite weird that you can get your CPU through NB clocking at 4.8GHz and not with multipliers, lol. Also bus overclocking, bclk for Sandy bridge and up, is pretty much pointless, it only gets like 1MHz higher and its hard to get it stable so it isn't worth spending your time on.

Btw, http://www.lucashale.com/timer-resolution/ - it's weird I had it by default at 1MS, with that tool I could set it to 0.5ms and DPC latency checker reports 0.5ms, going to try disable HPET high precision timer and see if that does anything.

 

 

Yes its weird amd cpu´s realy benefitting from Nbridge overclocking, on which intel, does not realy seem to like it.

Same story with the Xeon´s Linus claimed that he was able to put his 12 core xeon on a 113 base clock stable.

He tested it with aida.

But i personaly cannot believe that a xeon can be stable, at such a high bump, normaly the limit of a xeon is arround 105 base.

Wenn you go over that, it will start trowing weird errors in WHEA.

Offcourse it could be looking stable with aida64, but this does not mean that its reliable.

I mean let it render some 4k video for a few hours, im sure, it will trow errors.

The memory controllers are also not made for that, especialy wenn using ECC, on C-series chipsets.

 

My cpu i was indeed only able to achieve 4.8GHz with the bus ratio.

However, i also tried a bus on 245 but then i got bluescreens and what not.

But that is most likely caused by the ram.

Because it also overclocked my ram from 1600 to 2000mhz.

1922Mhz was not problem for the ram.

Still strange that i cannot overclock deu multiplier indeed.

4.5Ghz is the max i can reach, without the board freezing on stress test.

Meh im kinda done with that part.

 

About the latency i will definitely going to test that tool.

But i still think that its a problem with the mobo it self.

I also had weird freezing usb mouse issues, wenn try to close a java applet windows.

It could offcourse all be windows 7 related, there are more people arround with the same kind of issues.

Most of them use an AMD system with realtek lan, some use an older socket 775 intel system, with realtek lan aswell.

So it seems a bit obvious to me. That realtek just suck.

 

Wenn i just play offline games, everything works fine.

But assoon as i start playing online flash or java based games.

like Bombermania on playforia, with 8 people ingame, then after a few minutes of game play the whole game start to lagg as fuck. unless i disable the ingame audio, then it isnt that bad.

Those game are basicly not realy heavy, however i did never experianced so much lagg, with my pentium 4 with hypertrading, on windows xp.

I assume, this is all releated to the latency problem between the realtek lan and the audio chip, which is realtek aswell.

I dont see any newer intel people complain about any kind of latency problems on Windows 7.

So i can only think about the motherboard.

My pentium 4 had only a 100mbit lan port, i have to say, my current is Gigabit offcourse.

Could also be something related to that maybe.

But i allready tried everything realy, SSD´s new HDD´s reinstalls, bios updates, drivers updates. just everything lol

Yesterday my audio services crashed 2 times in a row, wenn watching a live stream, and listen to music.

But yeah nobody has an ansewr for it.

The only thing i do know, is that its caused by the lan chip.

I tested that out allready with dPL tester

 

But yeah in terms of the GPU, the GTX970 seems to be the thing to get at this price point.

[Faa]

@Sintezza 

Before Sandy Bridge we had FSB, (forget nehalem for a sec), the memory controller & pcie controller weren't in the CPU die so we had a northbridge. With nehalem they moved the memory controller to the CPU die, Sandy bridge moved the pcie controller to the die and Intel made a new bus called ring bus it looks like this; https://software.intel.com/sites/default/files/xeon-processor-5.jpg

Northbridge isn't there anymore, only Southbridge. Southbridge should be moved to CPU die as well, basically anything that can go in the cpu so you can keep your motherboard for 10 years and just upgrade the CPU only Would be great.

So FSB got renamed to BCLK, everything is now connected in a ring, and we had a bunch of multipliers like 57 for Sandy bridge, 63 for Haswell I think, but apparently chips like 3930K's have unlocked BCLK straps can do up to 167MHz but still hard to get it stable but I'll never do it. Not that I found Linus overclocking that xeon with the BCLK (isnt unlocked on them I guess) smart, you don't do it for a xeon.. I hated FSB overclocking so much, my Q9550 was limited because of my ram, couldn't go higher on the CPU clock without faster ram >.> So when I got my 2600K meh, the multipliers were like heaven to me. Increase multiplier, up vcore, increase multiplier, up vcore. How easy wasn't it? My first attempt on 2600K, took me less than a minute to hit 4.7GHz and apparently it was prime stable >.< Haswell made this harder imo, it wasn't needed to implent ring clock and that vrm.

mainly you can decide which specific cores you want to have active. If you disable 3 cores on a 4670K, it's always the same core called #0 that's enabled. With HW-e, imagine if you have 8 cores, test them all individually out and see which one is the best binned.

4.5GHz eg;

#core0 1.25V
#core1 1.35V
#core2 1.10V
#core3 1.14V
#core4 1.19V
#core5 1.32V
#core6 1.37V
#Core7 1.07v

Basically, if you just play WoW, only enable #core2 and core#7 and #core3 & all others disabled and clock the lovely binned ones higher

Picture;



 

Its done with a different tool; http://vvvv.org/contribution/windows-system-timer-tool (if you close that app, then it resets back to the default value)

Kinda confused honestly about this. Can't get a logical explanation for this but anyways, youtube "Crysis 3 FPS Boost" that dude was cpu bottlenecked in Crysis 3 a 3770K running at 84% load, after he lowered that timer down to 0.5ms cpu load cranked up to 100% load and the GPU loads increased massively with a 30% FPS boost. I'm wondering why his "current" timer is set to 15 ms, mine is by default at 1 ms, perhaps because I use a faster responding monitor orwhat? Doesnt sound logical either.. The lowest it can go is 0.5ms with that tool, I tried 0.1 ms but doesnt do anything. I have lots of useless drivers installed, like 15 already from AI suite.. 

It looks to me that you have an hardware issue with your board, honestly most stability issues are related to motherboards imo.. Anything else in your system can't be the cause of it.

[Not a Black]

Gtx 970 all the way.

Best budget GPU

[D00M_GaMeR]

I THINK he meant that's it's just as demanding as running it at 4K...of course supersampling 4K on a lower resolution monitor look nowhere near as good as real 4k...

But i agree i can do that with my GTX 780 but now i think it's build in geforce experience am i right razzaa? i hope they will get the new features to work on the older gpus as well...

They will because i ask nvidia my salfe about DSR