How important is a DAC?

[Silent_Xaxal]

How important is having a good dac? I've seen a lot of dac/amp combo devices, solo dacs, and solo amps and I was wondering how much of a difference does having a good dac have on audio quality as opposed to just running a good amp.

 

I'm familiar with why amps make things better for higher impedance headphones, but DACs are relatively new to me.

[Syntaxvgm]

a good dac increases quality, and volume. It basically takes the job of converting to analog form the PC's sound card to a stand alone device. Sometimes using an AMP without a dac may lead to white noise depending on the quality of your sound card. Why don't onboard sound cards have good built in DACs? Well it's not just a money thing, but a size thing as well. 

[SSL]

a good dac increases quality, and volume. It basically takes the job of converting to analog form the PC's sound card to a stand alone device. Sometimes using an AMP without a dac may lead to white noise deepening on the quality of your sound card. Why don't onboard sound cards have good built in DACs? Well it's not just a money thing, but a size thing as well. 

 

You're horribly confused and misinformed.

 

A "DAC" is a digital-to-analog converter. It translates the digital signal made up of 1s and 0s to a continuous (analog) signal. A DAC only ouputs at line level and must be used with an amp in order to achieve a usable listening volume.

 

Likewise, you can't use an amp without a DAC if you're listening to a digital source (which most are these days). An amp may be paired with a DAC or not, but there is still a DAC somewhere in the signal chain, usually as a built-in audio processor such as on a motherboard.

 

Realistically, there isn't a huge difference between DAC chips (certainly not size). The most important thing is how the chip is implemented, but the music, then headphones, then amp, have the biggest impact on sound quality and signature.

[Syntaxvgm]

You're horribly confused and misinformed.

 

A "DAC" is a digital-to-analog converter. It translates the digital signal made up of 1s and 0s to a continuous (analog) signal. A DAC only ouputs at line level and must be used with an amp in order to achieve a usable listening volume.

 

Likewise, you can't use an amp without a DAC if you're listening to a digital source (which most are these days). An amp may be paired with a DAC or not, but there is still a DAC somewhere in the signal chain, usually as a built-in audio processor such as on a motherboard.

 

Realistically, there isn't a huge difference between DAC chips (certainly not size). The most important thing is how the chip is implemented, but the music, then headphones, then amp, have the biggest impact on sound quality and signature.

really? Cause I didn't day anything to the contrary. Onboard sound cards, like those in phones or some laptops lack the space to make extreme fidelity audio conversion. When you pair an amp without an external DAC you can end up with white noise if the quality of the onboard audio conversion is lacking. I never said that there wasn't a dac in the process, I refer to the external ones as that's what he's questioning. 

So why did I say volume? A good dac will have a decent output impedance, higher than that of a lot of on board dacs. So yes, the volume is increased. Also, cheap onbaord sound tend to increase white noise towards the higher volumes. 

[ShearMe]

Onboard sound cards, like those in phones or some laptops lack the space to make extreme fidelity audio conversion. 

 

What kind of scale are we looking at here? What makes onboard DAC's non-extreme?

[SSL]

really? Cause I didn't day anything to the contrary. Onboard sound cards, like those in phones or some laptops lack the space to make extreme fidelity audio conversion. When you pair an amp without an external DAC you can end up with white noise if the quality of the onboard audio conversion is lacking. I never said that there wasn't a dac in the process, I refer to the external ones as that's what he's questioning. 

 

Like I said, you're confused. Observe:

 

 

a good dac increases quality, and volume.

 

A DAC does not increase volume. That's the job of the amp.

 

 

Sometimes using an AMP without a dac may lead to white noise deepening on the quality of your sound card.

 

You can't use an amp without a DAC when you have a digital source.

 

 

Why don't onboard sound cards have good built in DACs? Well it's not just a money thing, but a size thing as well. 

 

Size has literally nothing to do with implementation. And many onboard audios do have good DACs, they just aren't paired with powerful amps.

 

 

Onboard sound cards, like those in phones or some laptops lack the space to make extreme fidelity audio conversion.

 

I don't even know what this means. A phone or laptop can absolutely handle anything up to lossless audio formats bit-perfectly. They may not have the best possible amp, but as I've explained the amp has a different job than the DAC.

[Syntaxvgm]

Like I said, you're confused. Observe:

 

 

 

A DAC does not increase volume. That's the job of the amp.

 So why did I say volume? A good dac will have a decent output impedance, higher than that of a lot of on board dacs. So yes, the volume is increased. Also, cheap onbaord sound cards tend to increase white noise towards the higher volumes. So you are basically going onnboard dac>onboard amp> amp

kinda dumb

 also worth noting that onboard soundcards are usually incapable of producing the signal strength of a  good external DAC

also worth noting, a lot of devices output around 30 ohms impedance, dac and amp, desktop Dacs are closer to 70 most of the time. 

 

You can't use an amp without a DAC when you have a digital source.

I was referring to putting the amp directly to the analog output of the starting device. 

 

Size has literally nothing to do with implementation. And many onboard audios do have good DACs, they just aren't paired with powerful amps.

 It does. 

 

 

I don't even know what this means. A phone or laptop can absolutely handle anything up to lossless audio formats bit-perfectly. They may not have the best possible amp, but as I've explained the amp has a different job than the DAC.

Actually, I'm wrong here. While tiny DACs cannot produce a high impedance signal, that has nothing to do with quality. 

[SSL]

So why did I say volume? A good dac will have a decent output impedance, higher than that of a lot of on board dacs.

 

Nope. A good DAC will output a line level signal. You're also using the term impedance incorrectly, what you mean is "power" and like I said a DAC does not have enough power on it's own to drive a headphone to reasonable listening volumes. Output impedance is a difference concept entirely.

 

 

Also, cheap onbaord sound cards tend to increase white noise towards the higher volumes. So you are basically going onnboard dac>onboard amp> amp

kinda dumb

 

 

Noise floor is usually fine even on onboard solutions. The problem with onboard is EMI from the other components in the system. So you are sort of right that an external solution would be better in this case but it doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the onboard solution, just the implementation.

 

Size has literally nothing to do with implementation. And many onboard audios do have good DACs, they just aren't paired with powerful amps.

 It does.

 

 

Feel free to support your assertion with an actual argument or facts

 

Actually, I'm wrong here. While tiny DACs cannot produce a high impedance signal, that has nothing to do with quality. 

 

 

What is a tiny DAC? Audio for mice?

 

[Syntaxvgm]

Nope. A good DAC will output a line level signal. You're also using the term impedance incorrectly, what you mean is "power" and like I said a DAC does not have enough power on it's own to drive a headphone to reasonable listening volumes. Output impedance is a difference concept entirely.

 

Not all do. Yes I am using the term incorrectly. totally incorrect. Glad I learned something. 

 

Noise floor is usually fine even on onboard solutions. The problem with onboard is EMI from the other components in the system. So you are sort of right that an external solution would be better in this case but it doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the onboard solution, just the implementation. That is the reason amps from small devices suck, yes. With bad input on anp, you get bad output. That's all I'm actually right about, and was all my original assertion about volume and quality was meant to explain. A lot of people will plug amps directly to their 3.5mm output on their laptop/desktop. It ends up with noticeable white noise at higher volumes

 

 

Feel free to support your assertion with an actual argument or facts

 It does. I'm not sure I'm right on this explanation, but how it was told to me is this- tiny dacs, like those in ipods or other small devices produce a much weaker analog signal compared to desktop dacs. The tiny, usually cheap AMP has a larger gap to make up between the output power of the dac to the intended output power of the device. The audio quality usually suffers with such a small amp. 

 

 

What is a tiny DAC? Audio for mice?

Desktop dac

Phone, mp3 and onboard dacs are much smaller and like amps emi becomes a problem. they also can't achieve the range? or am I wrong there?

 

I'm not a god, I'm bound to be wrong at least once on this forum. 

This is why I ask a real audiophile when it comes to audio. I am wrong a lot. 

[mr moose]

Your confusing a dac/amp combo with a dac.

 

That black square is a dac:

 

 

 

They are, for all intents and purposes, identical across all sound devices.

 

Amps on the other hand can be poorly implemented and cause most of the audible issues people comment on.

[Silent_Xaxal]

So would having good onboard audio remove the need for an external DAC?

[EmoRarity]

So would having good onboard audio remove the need for an external DAC?

Yes.