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Helping me not be an Intel/Nvidia fanboy.

Go to solution Solved by MEC-777,

... I can kinda get there CPU because I can look at the number of cores and clock speed, ...

It's not that simple. The two use very different architectures when it comes to cores/modules, scheduling, cache, etc, so you can't compare number of cores and clock speed alone.

 

Clock speed is only relevant comparing within a certain family of CPUs with the same number of cores from the same manufacturer - for example the FX-8320 and 8350. They both have the same architecture and number of cores, but the 8350 has a higher stock clock and thus, it's the faster of the two. Or the i5-4440 and i5-4670. Again, both from the same architecture/family and number of cores thus, the 4670 is faster with higher clocks. 

 

With number of cores, the same comparison should be made. Example: FX-4300, FX-6300, FX-8350. All from the same architecture/family yet they have 4, 6 and 8 cores, respectively and based on that, you know which will perform better. Same thing with the core i series from Intel. i3, i5 and i7. Again, all from the same architecture, yet they are dual-core with hyper-threading, quad-core and quad-core with hyper-threading, respectively. And again we know which, of that series, will perform better. 

 

However, when it comes to directly comparing AMD CPUs with Intel CPUs you cannot compare number of cores and clock speeds. What really matters and what you should compare is IPC (instructions per clock) per core and overall real-world performance. Intel's current core-i series CPUs have approximately twice the IPC per core as the current FX-X3XX series. This is nothing against AMD, it's just a fact. AMD compensates for this by spreading the work out over more cores in combination with higher clock speeds. It doesn't make them bad, it's just a different method and architecture.

 

But there's even more to it than that. Hyperthreading is simply more efficient work/thread scheduling. Linus did a great tech quickie video on this and explained it very well. Think of the CPU as your mouth and your hand as the scheduler - prepping food (threads or "work") to feed your mouth (the CPU) for processing. If you have only 1 hand feeding your mouth, there are times when your mouth is finished the previous process before the next bit of food (work) is ready and that causes a delay - your mouth has to wait for the next chunk to be processed. Now, if you have two hands prepping and feeding, there is far less delay between processes. While one hand is prepping, the other is feeding. It's not a perfect analogy, but it gives you an idea of how hyperthreading works. This is why it's seen and treated as a quad-core by your OS. 2 "hands" or threads per core appears as 4 cores. Make no mistake, this doesn't make the CPU twice as fast, but the performance results are apparent. We see some games running just as well on the dual-core hyperthreaded core i3s as we do on the 8-core FX-8300's. Some of those games are fairly recent and claimed to be optimized for CPUs with more than 4 threads/cores. 

 

Some games have been observed to take advantage of CPUs with more than 4 threads/cores, like BF4, and in such cases, we see the AMD FX 8-core CPUs performing very well. However, in the same games and many others, the core i5 series performs just as well and often a little better - yet they only boast 4 cores and no hyperthreading. Again, it comes down to IPC per core and the combined overall performance. Let's say we're running a game with an 8 thread workload. So we have all 8 cores of an FX-8350 working through these 8 threads simultaneously. Based on the IPC per core, it'll take a certain amount of time to process that amount of work. Now, because the i5 IPC is roughly double, it can finish the same workload in approximately the same amount of time, only it does it 4 threads at a time. 

 

Please keep in mind I'm talking about gaming specifically. There are some applications and games that favour AMD architecture and some that favour Intel. You'll find a lot of the older games and even some newer ones, can only make use of 2 cores as that is the way they were made. As such, they will generally run much better on Intel CPUs because per-core performance is even more important in those cases. Likewise, poorly optimized games will typically run better on Intel for the same reason - stronger per-core performance (That partially explains why some recent games run almost as well on an i3 as the FX 8-cores). However, in most newer games, AMDs run just fine and often the differences are insignificant. 

 

How should you compare CPUs between Intel and AMD then if you can't directly compare number of cores and clock speeds? First, forget about brand, number of cores and clock speeds. How much can you afford to spend on a CPU in your given budget? Look at all the CPUs in that price range. Consider the applications/games you'll be running most and see which perform better overall. You should also consider future upgrades as some platforms/sockets will allow for a longer life for your system without requiring other parts to be changed down the road. Also, do you want the ability to overclock? 

 

Intel tends to edge out AMD, performance-wise, at most price points, but you tend to get what you pay for. That doesn't mean AMD isn't good. On the contrary, they offer really strong value at certain price points. The FX-6300 6-core is an excellent gaming CPU for only about $110. For only about $40 more you can step up to the FX-8320 8-core and overclock to match the stock performance of the 8350. This will get you similar performance to that of the Intel core i5's which start at closer to $200. Now factor in the cost of a decent aftermarket CPU cooler and you're almost spending the same amount as you would on an i5. So there are +'s and -'s to both sides. The Athlon X4 760K is another excellent choice for a gaming CPU - priced at $90 or less with the ability to handle substantial overclocking.

 

Neither brand is "better" than the other, because there are too many factors to take into account and every situation is different. Better in what way? At what price point? For who? It should be dependent on what will work best for your specific situation. For a rough baseline comparison at certain price points, the following are generally where I start looking (for gaming and general usage):

 

Less than $100: Intel Pentium G3420 or G3258 vs. AMD Athlon X4 760K

 

$100-120: Intel i3-4130 or 4150 (entry level core i3's only!) vs. AMD FX-6300

 

$150-200+: Intel i5-4430 or 4440 vs. FX-8320 (on the low-end) and Intel i5-4590 to 4690K vs. FX-8350 (on the high-end).

 

 

When it comes to gaming, there are severe diminishing returns beyond the $220-240 range. The i7s are far more expensive and FX-9XXX series are extremely power hungry. Neither offer any compelling gaming performance advantage, if any. 

 

I apologize for the long-winded response, but we need to stop thinking in terms of core count and clock speeds when comparing between brands. It used to be that we could compare directly in that way but since their architectures are so different now, it's just not that simple and often miss-leading.

So basically whenever I look at a system and it is running anything AMD I discount it as a "good" system. I think this comes from not understating them as much as I do Intel and Nvidia. I can kinda get there CPU because I can look at the number of cores and clock speed, but there graphics cards numbering systems don't make since to me also I don't really know what the equivalent Nvidia cards are and maybe that would help. SO would anyone be willing to explain AMD to me? 

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Bigger is better. Tadaa :D

I fix computers and computer accessories... sometimes... when I want to...

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Not sure how to 'explain AMD'. Look at relevant benchmarks. 

 

As for graphics cards:

750 Ti < 660, 7850, 265 < 7870, 270 < 270x < 760 < 7950, 280 < 770, 7970, 280x < 780, 290 < 290x, 780 Ti  

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AMD CPUs: A lot of cores, a lot of clockspeed, but it makes little difference in the long run. FX 4xxx and FX 6xxx CPUs compete with i3s, FX 8xxx and FX 9xxx compete with i5s and i7s.

 

GPUs: Really good, very powerful. But the aftermarket Hawaii (R9 290 and R9 290X) coolers from the likes of ASUS and Gigabyte leave a lot to be desired.

 

R7 260X = GTX 750 Ti

R7 265/R9 270 > GTX 750 Ti

R9 270X = GTX 760

R9 280 > GTX 760

R9 280X = GTX 770

R9 290 = GTX 780

R9 290 < GTX 780 Ti/GTX TITAN Black

R9 295X2 > GTX TITAN Z

 

= denotes roundabout performance

> better than

< worse than

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Here ya go!

 

R9 270X (GTX 760).

 

R9 280X (GTX 770).

 

R9 290X (GTX 780).

 

With the non-X versions simply being the same card only with a slight under-clock, it should also be noted that their NVidia counterparts tend to perform better by a small margin while costing more.

 

Also this is only for recent cards, I haven't been around long enough to understand the previous generations of cards.

 

 

 

 

Edit: The above poster beat me to it, and with a more comprehensive list to boot! Though he forgot the X on that second R9 290.

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With the non-X versions simply being the same card only with a slight under-clock

This is not always true. It stands true only with the R9 270 and R9 270X.

 

The R9 280 has less stream processors than the R9 280X, as the R9 290 has less stream processors than the R9 290X.

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i think it their old mnaming scheme that makes everyone be nvidia intel fanboys

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This is not always true. It stands true only with the R9 270 and R9 270X.

 

The R9 280 has less stream processors than the R9 280X, as the R9 290 has less stream processors than the R9 290X.

Fair enough, they're still largely similar cards that can reach nearly the same performance if overclocked however. 

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Sure, R7 260 through R9 280x are rebranded 7xxx series cards with higher frequencies. R9 290/x being the new successor and everything stepping down a notch ...

 

Here's some reading material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Radeon_Rx_200_Series

 

Here's a reference you can .... reference as far as GPU hierarchy is concerned ...

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-7.html

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With the non-X versions simply being the same card only with a slight under-clock, it should also be noted that their NVidia counterparts tend to perform better by a small margin while costing more.

r9 290x has more stream processors than the 290, same with the r9 280 and 280x.

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AMD gpu's are more than competitive with Nvidia ones (and are often better for the price).
AMD cpu's have in the last few years have much worse single threaded performance than intel cpu's, and hence why need 8 cores to be competitive. 
However this relies on the software being used to actually utilise 8 cores, when it does AMD cpu's do quite well, however when lightly threaded (say optimised for 2 cores) applications are used, intel cpu's have quite a substantial lead. For gaming these days though, an overclocked fx-8320 gives you quite good value for money.

There is absolutely no reason to discount AMD from possible purchases as they are more than fine for most people. 

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This is not always true. It stands true only with the R9 270 and R9 270X.

 

The R9 280 has less stream processors than the R9 280X, as the R9 290 has less stream processors than the R9 290X.

They use the Same GPU just AMD factory locks some of the streaming processors and sell it to card manufacturers (like Asus, Gigabyte ect...) at a discount cause otherwise they'd have to throw them out for being defective however Nvidia does the samething... fyi the Geforce GTX 660 uses the SAME GPU as the Geforce GTX 780 known as the GK107... Titan, Titan Black, 780Ti, Titan Z the 4 of em use GK110 the titan and titan Z each have only slightly locked cores, and the 780TI has double precision turned off... With the 270vs270x having same number of processors is basically cause AMD didn't have to lock any cores so they just sold the some of them at a discount to be a "nice guy" 280vs280x 280 had to have some locked cores and 290vs290x was mostly locked for heat reasons xD

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They use the Same GPU just AMD factory locks some of the streaming processors and sell it to card manufacturers (like Asus, Gigabyte ect...) at a discount cause otherwise they'd have to throw them out for being defective however Nvidia does the samething... fyi the Geforce GTX 660 uses the SAME GPU as the Geforce GTX 780 known as the GK107... Titan, Titan Black, 780Ti, Titan Z the 4 of em use GK110 the titan and titan Z each have only slightly locked cores, and the 780TI has double precision turned off... With the 270vs270x having same number of processors is basically cause AMD didn't have to lock any cores so they just sold the some of them at a discount to be a "nice guy" 280vs280x 280 had to have some locked cores and 290vs290x was mostly locked for heat reasons xD

No. The GTX 780 uses GK 110 as the Titan, TB, Ti and Z do. The 660 uses either GK104 like the 660 Ti, 670, 680, 690, 760 amd 770 do or GK107 like the 650 Ti, 650 Ti Boost and GTX 645 (OEM) do.

 

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r9 290x has more stream processors than the 290, same with the r9 280 and 280x.

This was pointed out already.

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This was pointed out already.

Saw that after posting. Sry, cant delete posts :-(

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No. The GTX 780 uses GK 110 as the Titan, TB, Ti and Z do. The 660 uses either GK104 like the 660 Ti, 670, 680, 690, 760 amd 770 do or GK107 like the 650 Ti, 650 Ti Boost and GTX 645 (OEM) do.

 

FYI, I do actually know what I am talking about.

as do I, I just didn't double check as it was midnight after a long day I was simply trying to get the point across. that stream processors mean nothing about a GPU... 

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AMD CPUs: A lot of cores, a lot of clockspeed, but it makes little difference in the long run. FX 4xxx and FX 6xxx CPUs compete with i3s, FX 8xxx and FX 9xxx compete with i5s and i7s.

 

GPUs: Really good, very powerful. But the aftermarket Hawaii (R9 290 and R9 290X) coolers from the likes of ASUS and Gigabyte leave a lot to be desired.

 

R7 260X = GTX 750 Ti

R7 265/R9 270 > GTX 750 Ti

R9 270X = GTX 760

R9 280 > GTX 760

R9 280X = GTX 770

R9 290 = GTX 780

R9 290 < GTX 780 Ti/GTX TITAN Black

R9 295X2 > GTX TITAN Z

 

= denotes roundabout performance

> better than

< worse than

295x2 and Titan Z trade blows. 295x2 isn't the winner, it's equal. 

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Look at there price to performance ratio. Converted me in an instant. 

 

295x2 and Titan Z trade blows. 295x2 isn't the winner, it's equal. 

Take price into that?

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Look at there price to performance ratio. Converted me in an instant. 

 

Take price into that?

I said nothing about price. I can see the 295x2 being a better buy and half the price of a Titan Z. But that doesn't change the fact that they do perform similarly. 

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295x2 and Titan Z trade blows. 295x2 isn't the winner, it's equal. 

Ryan Shrout put them through their paces, and for the most part, the Titan Z gets whipped.

 

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/NVIDIA-GeForce-GTX-TITAN-Z-Review/

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AMD CPUs: A lot of cores, a lot of clockspeed, but it makes little difference in the long run. FX 4xxx and FX 6xxx CPUs compete with i3s, FX 8xxx and FX 9xxx compete with i5s and i7s.

GPUs: Really good, very powerful. But the aftermarket Hawaii (R9 290 and R9 290X) coolers from the likes of ASUS and Gigabyte leave a lot to be desired.

R7 260X = GTX 750 Ti

R7 265/R9 270 > GTX 750 Ti

R9 270X = GTX 760

R9 280 > GTX 760

R9 280X = GTX 770

R9 290 = GTX 780

R9 290 < GTX 780 Ti/GTX TITAN Black

R9 295X2 > GTX TITAN Z

= denotes roundabout performance

> better than

< worse than

I see you mentioned that after market coolers for ASUS and Gigabyte for the r9 290 leave a lot to be desired. Can you please explain what's wrong with them? I am currently looking for which non reference R9 290 to get but I can't decide. I know the ASUS one has problems with its heat pipes but what's wrong with the gigabyte one?

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I see you mentioned that after market coolers for ASUS and Gigabyte for the r9 290 leave a lot to be desired. Can you please explain what's wrong with them? I am currently looking for which non reference R9 290 to get but I can't decide. I know the ASUS one has problems with its heat pipes but what's wrong with the gigabyte one?

They had the same issue as ASUS's models.

i7 4770K @ 4.5GHZ, NH-D14, Kingston HyperX Black 8GB, Asus Z87-A, Fractal Design XL R2, MSI TF IV R9 280x, BTFNX 550G

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I always used amd cpu's but I noticed that i was running short on performance even with my 8320 i switched to intel and i'm never going back.

But for gpu's i don't care if it's amd or nvidia but I'd rather go with amd because more bang for buck.





 
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