Surround Sound Headache

[kerncraftergold]

I am stuck, so I figured I'd bring this to the LTT community.

 

I use an Alienware R12 (with Win 11) as my daily driver.  Because it has a "Coaxial" SPDIF connection (via RCA) I dug out a hand-me-down AV Reciever (Pioneer HTD-510 -- I'm using newer speakers) that accepts a coaxial input.  (I'm NOT using TOSLINK)

I finally got the chance to set up the Center, and Rear speakers for the setup, and I have configured it in the receiver to know the (approximate) locations of all the speakers.  I started to test it, by opening Paramount+ (the app) and streaming Top Gun: Maverick, where the surround sound works AMAZING!

However, in games, and everything except a select few streaming platforms, all I get is stereo.  Under the "Properties" tab for the audio device, I have DTS Audio and Dolby Digital enabled, and it works for the built-in audio test.  It DOES NOT give me any option to "configure" or "set up" surround sound.  Suppose I launch Forza, or anything else (anything that's supposed to work with surround). In that case, I am stuck with stereo (unless I have the receiver attempt to "fake" surround from the incoming stereo signal).

 

Although this isn't the biggest deal (I don't game as much as I would like to, and I enjoy the shows in 5.1)--I would like to have a full surround while gaming and/or using the computer too.  

I have installed all of the latest drivers and software from Dell's website, and nothing has changed.

 

All of the websites regarding a similar issue, everyone is using TOSLINK, which I understand that it has a limited bandwidth capability and that a proper Coaxial RCA connection (like I'm using) should be able to achieve what I want.

Before someone suggests spending money on new parts (another soundcard or receiver) I'd like to try to fix this first.  I had the parts lying around and decided to try to set it up.  It works GREAT when it works, and from some quick Google-ing, it sounds like a software problem over hardware, as it's been proven to function properly.

 

This has been quite frustrating, so any advice you may have would be HIGHLY appreciated!  I appreciate any help you can provide. 

[johnt]

2 hours ago, kerncraftergold said:

Before someone suggests spending money on new parts (another soundcard or receiver) I'd like to try to fix this first.  I had the parts lying around and decided to try to set it up.  It works GREAT when it works, and from some quick Google-ing, it sounds like a software problem over hardware, as it's been proven to function properly.

Unfortunately this requires money to fix. The difference between movies and games is that movies have encoded surround sound that your receiver can decode into different channels. Video games decode the information on the fly as you generate it during gameplay. So it provides the game developers another level of complexity and choice. Like you say, it's a software problem. Developers not only have to 1) provide a game with surround sound, but also 2) support surround sound through the protocol you are using. For example, most modern games only support surround sound through HDMI or separate outputs (the blue, green, and pink outputs on the back of motherboards). Most modern games do not support surround sound through TOSLINK or SPIDF at all.

 

I am not trying to tell you to throw money at it... but that's mostly because I don't think surround sound is worth it for gaming. It's beyond complicated to configure, expensive, and the general "plug and play" you expect from modern equipment and standards simply isn't there. Some games support 2 channels, some 8, while others only support 5 or 7 channels without a subwoofer signal... WHICH IS FRUSTRATING. This information is only available for select games and only after the game is released and folks have time to test it. To give you an example, The Witcher is 5.1, Witcher 2 and 3 are 7.1, but Cyberpunk is only 7.0.

 

Don't even get me started on Spatial Audio (Atmos, DTSX).

 

The reason why you need money to fix this is that HDMI generally fixes all compatibility issues. It just gives you the channels supported by the video game. However, it does create issues with video signals as only the newest receivers support HDMI 2.1 for VRR. And then you open another can of worms: finding wires that actually perform what they claim. I've been having a tough time finding a true HDMI 2.1 spec cable. I'm getting a lot of signal interruptions at 4k120Hz with HDR.

[Psittac]

3 hours ago, kerncraftergold said:

"Coaxial" SPDIF connection (via RCA)

I stopped reading at this point because this is non-sense as far as I understand

 

*I went ahead and read the rest of your post and it makes no sense, what are you using for a connection? Coaxial is.... if I remember correctly a digital connection using what I guess you would call an RCA plug.  To me RCA is analogue and left and right, very old connection.  If you are using Coaxial on an old reciever.... I would have to guess that the formats are not supported given it's a digital link, but that's a shot in the dark.  I would recommend toslink aka spdif at this point because I believe it is a standard format.  And again I'm taking a wild guess out of years past knowledge that has decayed, but I believe that limited and working is better than higher quality and barely working.  I'd have to research it more but I believe toslink is digitized audio vs digitized files.  That's my quazi educated guess.

[kerncraftergold]

22 hours ago, johnt said:

Unfortunately this requires money to fix. The difference between movies and games is that movies have encoded surround sound that your receiver can decode into different channels. Video games decode the information on the fly as you generate it during gameplay. So it provides the game developers another level of complexity and choice. Like you say, it's a software problem. Developers not only have to 1) provide a game with surround sound, but also 2) support surround sound through the protocol you are using. For example, most modern games only support surround sound through HDMI or separate outputs (the blue, green, and pink outputs on the back of motherboards). Most modern games do not support surround sound through TOSLINK or SPIDF at all.

 

I am not trying to tell you to throw money at it... but that's mostly because I don't think surround sound is worth it for gaming. It's beyond complicated to configure, expensive, and the general "plug and play" you expect from modern equipment and standards simply isn't there. Some games support 2 channels, some 8, while others only support 5 or 7 channels without a subwoofer signal... WHICH IS FRUSTRATING. This information is only available for select games and only after the game is released and folks have time to test it. To give you an example, The Witcher is 5.1, Witcher 2 and 3 are 7.1, but Cyberpunk is only 7.0.

 

Don't even get me started on Spatial Audio (Atmos, DTSX).

 

The reason why you need money to fix this is that HDMI generally fixes all compatibility issues. It just gives you the channels supported by the video game. However, it does create issues with video signals as only the newest receivers support HDMI 2.1 for VRR. And then you open another can of worms: finding wires that actually perform what they claim. I've been having a tough time finding a true HDMI 2.1 spec cable. I'm getting a lot of signal interruptions at 4k120Hz with HDR.

Thank you for the insight!  I worried that would be the case, but hoped for a more elegant solution…

My setup uses DisplayPort, so having a HDMI capable receiver would prove somewhat annoying.  

If anything, I was looking for at least a reason to why it won’t work, to which your response makes perfect sense, albeit a bit disheartening.

 

I’ve never had the opportunity to play with surround sound gaming, and was hoping to give it a try, but given your feedback, and some others online—unless playing a racing game, it doesn’t seem like many feel it is more immersive, engaging, or worth it.

[kerncraftergold]

21 hours ago, Psittac said:

I stopped reading at this point because this is non-sense as far as I understand

 

*I went ahead and read the rest of your post and it makes no sense, what are you using for a connection? Coaxial is.... if I remember correctly a digital connection using what I guess you would call an RCA plug.  To me RCA is analogue and left and right, very old connection.  If you are using Coaxial on an old reciever.... I would have to guess that the formats are not supported given it's a digital link, but that's a shot in the dark.  I would recommend toslink aka spdif at this point because I believe it is a standard format.  And again I'm taking a wild guess out of years past knowledge that has decayed, but I believe that limited and working is better than higher quality and barely working.  I'd have to research it more but I believe toslink is digitized audio vs digitized files.  That's my quazi educated guess.

Thanks for the response.  Here are a few more details!

The “RCA” I speak of IS the physical connector, not the “Phono”/“Composite”/“Component” protocols that use that connection interface.  The receiver uses SPDIF via a digital coaxial connection, that is terminated with RCA-type connections.

The receiver supports both Dolby surround and DTS — the same that windows control panel recognizes (just not “Windows WMA”.

To my knowledge TOSLINK is just a physical optical connection that uses an SPDIF protocol, however, at a lesser bandwidth compared to a true coaxial connection, which I am using.

 

However, as johnt pointed out, it seems that this isn’t really possible without other physical hardware, specifically for something gears for my application.

[johnt]

1 hour ago, kerncraftergold said:

Thank you for the insight!  I worried that would be the case, but hoped for a more elegant solution…

My setup uses DisplayPort, so having a HDMI capable receiver would prove somewhat annoying.  

If anything, I was looking for at least a reason to why it won’t work, to which your response makes perfect sense, albeit a bit disheartening.

 

I’ve never had the opportunity to play with surround sound gaming, and was hoping to give it a try, but given your feedback, and some others online—unless playing a racing game, it doesn’t seem like many feel it is more immersive, engaging, or worth it.

I'm glad you found my rant useful lol. I was probably $10k deep into audio gear only to learn this information I'm sharing with you. And then it gets worse as you dig deeper into streaming services that support surround sound, and you are limited to certain browsers or specific apps, HDR is questionable, and oh yeah you needed a Kaby Lake processor which was like the latest and great at the time. I'm not even sure if anything has improved. It's crazy to think I could stream Netflix at 4k on a puny fire stick for $40, but my monster 6-core 5820k and 1070 was limited to 720p.

 

Disheartening is a good word for it. Very disappointing indeed.

 

Sadly I found... "procured" movies through... you know... politically incorrect means... was the most reliable way to get surround sound on a PC. I have my PC plugged into a receiver through HDMI and the receiver is able to detect which decoder to use (Dolby Digital, Atmos, TrueHD, DTSX, etc.) and switch it automatically when the movies start. Which was downright ridiculous that I had to resort to piracy to fully utilize what I had purchased.