Linus's chevy Volt

[darwin006]

edited for wrong info

 

 

It was reported by Reuters back in 2012 that GM was losing money on every Volt sold when an expert calculated that development cost and BOM cost for each Volt was at $80k+. A VP at GM said it was true that they where not making money on the Volt but with more production and a gen 2 they could make money. At this point it looks like GM has abandoned the Volt and all hybrids so it seems unlikely GM ever will make their money back on it.

 

EVs are on the bleeding edge and the early adopters are paying for it especially if they have to deal with the public charging network. Even people with Teslas are having problems with charging in public with Tesla chargers.

 

Plug in hybrids are great because you get the best of both gas and EV.

[Lurking]

56 minutes ago, darwin006 said:

@LinusTech

Not that it really matters a lot but FYI there is no ICE drive train in the Volt, the gas engine charges the batteries to power the electric motors that move the car. The gas engine is literally just a generator to charge the batteries.

 

Toyota starting doing the same thing some what recently in their plug in hybrids, Chevy has been doing it for 12 years.

 

It was reported by Reuters back in 2012 that GM was losing money on every Volt sold when an expert calculated that development cost and BOM cost for each Volt was at $80k+. A VP at GM said it was true that they where not making money on the Volt but with more production and a gen 2 they could make money. At this point it looks like GM has abandoned the Volt and all hybrids so it seems unlikely GM ever will make their money back on it.

 

EVs are on the bleeding edge and the early adopters are paying for it especially if they have to deal with the public charging network. Even people with Teslas are having problems with charging in public with Tesla chargers.

 

Plug in hybrids are great because you get the best of both gas and EV.

Maybe there was a change from version 1 to 2. But the Volt actually had a clutch to directly drive the wheels from the ICE above 62 mph or something like that.Badically a single speed tranny geared for high speeds to avoid the electrical losses. Below that speed, it works as you described. Obviously this doesn't happen the first 30 miles while it runs on battery 

 

The Honda hybrids work similarly (except they run the ICE most the time due to lack of a larger battery). 

[wanderingfool2]

11 hours ago, darwin006 said:

Plug in hybrids are great because you get the best of both gas and EV.

You also get the worse of both worlds though.

 

I think this is where Linus gets a few things wrong, because he makes assumptions about people, and assumes a specific economic model.

 

There are people who can't plug in their volt overnight.  They might have purchased the car thinking they could charge, but then realized they don't have the capability to or moved and have to do street parking.

 

The instant you start using public chargers the whole economics of EV's saving money is out the window.  Especially because up until recently EV chargers in BC had to charge based on time instead of kWh used.  Overall you could end up spending just the same amount as you do on gas vehicles per km sometimes...especially if you end up having to drive frequently to the chargers so you put on extra mileage.

 

Hybrids do actually have more maintenance costs as well.  You still have to do an oil change, the added weight still means more frequent tire changes, and all the other stuff that comes with gas/EV's you have to do.  That includes battery replacements.

 

On a Volt, since you have a smaller battery you end up putting more cycles on the battery than a normal EV...and since you have the gas reserves you are also more likely to draw the battery down to the critical levels and charge back up to full.

 

On Volt's and other PIH's; you also run into the issue of stale gas.  If you plug it in, and haven't done long drives you actually can end up with bad gas in your tank and then if you do end up using that gas you can kill the engine (it's a thing, it has happened to some people; especially if you got gas that wasn't the best quality to begin with)

 

Now onto the whole "GM could have made up the margins during covid".  @LinusTech fails to understand the basic car model.  First, GM was taking a bath according to sources prior to the pandemic, which even if they got the benefits of higher prices would not likely have made up for it.  The part that Linus fails on is that the dealerships are the ones that were making the majority of the money.  GM/Ford etc all essentially had to sell their vehicles to the dealers at the same costs.  Linus also fails to recognize that costs to make EV's also ballooned during that time; like seriously Mach-e went from barely making a profit on EV's to losing their shirt on selling the EV's (Lithium prices, and higher labor costs)

 

Actually part of the car shortage as well was the manufacturers shortsightedness as well...they ran a JIT parts model and they cancelled their chip orders (and on that they used the older cheaper manufacturing nodes for chips).  Mix that with a chip shortage, and they really couldn't get their hands on the chips

 

 

Then of course you look at the MSRP, with the 2019 Volt being ~$34k...so for spending $5k more you could literally get a Tesla.  Yes, there isn't the "backup" ICE option, but it's a tough sell to people offering a bare bones car vs a bare bones Tesla when the pricing is pretty much the same.  (Keep in mind, that some of the tax credits depending where you live actually have larger credits for full fledged EV's).

[Needfuldoer]

13 hours ago, darwin006 said:

Not that it really matters a lot but FYI there is no ICE drive train in the Volt, the gas engine charges the batteries to power the electric motors that move the car. The gas engine is literally just a generator to charge the batteries.

The second gen Voltec powertrain in the 2016+ Volt is a parallel hybrid. The ICE can contribute directly to the wheels at highway speeds.

 

36 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Hybrids do actually have more maintenance costs as well.  You still have to do an oil change, the added weight still means more frequent tire changes, and all the other stuff that comes with gas/EV's you have to do.  That includes battery replacements.

I bought my 2018 new (coincidentally it's nearly identical to Linus's). In 78,000 miles and 5.5 years, I've changed the engine oil 5 times, replaced the tires once (at 45,000 miles because the stock eco Michelins were dangerous in the snow), and overhauled the brakes once (at 75,000 miles). That's it. Once it hits 100k I'll change the hydraulic fluid in the drive unit (just regular GM transmission fluid) and flush the coolant loops (just regular GM engine coolant). 

 

The car weighs about 3,500 pounds, or roughly the same as a mid-trim 2018 Equinox (which is built on the same platform). The traction battery is only about 400 pounds of that.

 

36 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

On a Volt, since you have a smaller battery you end up putting more cycles on the battery than a normal EV...and since you have the gas reserves you are also more likely to draw the battery down to the critical levels and charge back up to full.

I've noticed no degradation in the traction battery, and it still has the factory 12v AGM battery in the trunk.

 

The traction battery is LiFePo4, not NMC, so it can handle far more charge cycles. The controller babies the battery, keeping it between 20% and 80% SOC. (It will only tap that last 20% in limp mode if you run completely out of gas.) And it's also liquid cooled, so it doesn't cook itself to death like the first-gen Leaf pack.

 

36 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

On Volt's and other PIH's; you also run into the issue of stale gas.  If you plug it in, and haven't done long drives you actually can end up with bad gas in your tank and then if you do end up using that gas you can kill the engine (it's a thing, it has happened to some people; especially if you got gas that wasn't the best quality to begin with)

If you don't use gas for a few weeks, the car will run the engine at a high idle for at least 20 minutes to clear the lines of aging gas. I haven't gone long enough between fill-ups to trigger this, but apparently if you don't put fresh gas in for too long it will use the gas in the tank until it's low and you refill.

 

I've got a different car that sat for a few years and still ran on gas I put in last time I drove it. (It had Sta-Bil in the tank and a bunch evaporated over the years, but still.)

 

 

EDIT: @Lurking:

21 minutes ago, Lurking said:

This isn't true for hybrids from manufacturers that just slap some parts into a compliance vehicle.....

Don't underestimate how much engineering effort GM poured into Voltec, only to throw it out when it wasn't an immediate smash hit. (After all, that's been their MO for decades.) "Slapping some parts into a compliance vehicle" is what they did with the Spark and Ford did with the Focus.

 

The biggest problem (besides marketing) was that nobody was buying expensive small hatchbacks in the mid-2010s. The second gen Volt should've been a powertrain option for the Equinox.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Needfuldoer

[Lurking]

31 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

You also get the worse of both worlds though.

 

I think this is where Linus gets a few things wrong, because he makes assumptions about people, and assumes a specific economic model.

 

There are people who can't plug in their volt overnight.  They might have purchased the car thinking they could charge, but then realized they don't have the capability to or moved and have to do street parking.

 

The instant you start using public chargers the whole economics of EV's saving money is out the window.  Especially because up until recently EV chargers in BC had to charge based on time instead of kWh used.  Overall you could end up spending just the same amount as you do on gas vehicles per km sometimes...especially if you end up having to drive frequently to the chargers so you put on extra mileage.

 

Hybrids do actually have more maintenance costs as well.  You still have to do an oil change, the added weight still means more frequent tire changes, and all the other stuff that comes with gas/EV's you have to do.  That includes battery replacements.

 

On a Volt, since you have a smaller battery you end up putting more cycles on the battery than a normal EV...and since you have the gas reserves you are also more likely to draw the battery down to the critical levels and charge back up to full.

 

On Volt's and other PIH's; you also run into the issue of stale gas.  If you plug it in, and haven't done long drives you actually can end up with bad gas in your tank and then if you do end up using that gas you can kill the engine (it's a thing, it has happened to some people; especially if you got gas that wasn't the best quality to begin with)

 

Now onto the whole "GM could have made up the margins during covid".  @LinusTech fails to understand the basic car model.  First, GM was taking a bath according to sources prior to the pandemic, which even if they got the benefits of higher prices would not likely have made up for it.  The part that Linus fails on is that the dealerships are the ones that were making the majority of the money.  GM/Ford etc all essentially had to sell their vehicles to the dealers at the same costs.  Linus also fails to recognize that costs to make EV's also ballooned during that time; like seriously Mach-e went from barely making a profit on EV's to losing their shirt on selling the EV's (Lithium prices, and higher labor costs)

 

Actually part of the car shortage as well was the manufacturers shortsightedness as well...they ran a JIT parts model and they cancelled their chip orders (and on that they used the older cheaper manufacturing nodes for chips).  Mix that with a chip shortage, and they really couldn't get their hands on the chips

 

 

Then of course you look at the MSRP, with the 2019 Volt being ~$34k...so for spending $5k more you could literally get a Tesla.  Yes, there isn't the "backup" ICE option, but it's a tough sell to people offering a bare bones car vs a bare bones Tesla when the pricing is pretty much the same.  (Keep in mind, that some of the tax credits depending where you live actually have larger credits for full fledged EV's).

+1 on most. 

Just a clarification on hybrid maintenance. Good hybrids like the Prius probably have similar maintenance to an ICE car and little better reliability. The eCVT is much simpler and less prone to failure than a traditional automatic tranny. Battery replacement also isn't a common issue before several hundred thousand miles. Brakes live much longer, there is no starter, alternator and accessory belt to fail or need replacement. They have an electric oil pump, which should improve lubrication a bit since it can change speed based on need and isn't related to engine rpm.

 

This isn't true for hybrids from manufacturers that just slap some parts into a compliance vehicle.....

 

I didn't see the video in question. But I have zero interest to learn from a computer channel about cars. They barely get the computer part right .... 

Check out Weber Auto or Munro if you want to learn about hybrid and EV technology. 

[Lurking]

29 minutes ago, Needfuldoer said:

EDIT: @Lurking:

Don't underestimate how much engineering effort GM poured into Voltec, only to throw it out when it wasn't an immediate smash hit. (After all, that's been their MO for decades.) "Slapping some parts into a compliance vehicle" is what they did with the Spark and Ford did with the Focus.

 

The biggest problem (besides marketing) was that nobody was buying expensive small hatchbacks in the mid-2010s. The second gen Volt should've been a powertrain option for the Equinox.

I was referring to those mild hybrids where they took a car with ICE drivetrain that sucked and just added a motor and some battery. Too many half hearted compromises and those really duplicate drivetrain parts and potential issues without being really efficient.

 

The 2nd Gen Volt was pretty good for what it was and was designed from the ground up to be a plugin hybrid. 

[Rocketdog2112]

5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

There are people who can't plug in their volt overnight.  They might have purchased the car thinking they could charge, but then realized they don't have the capability to or moved and have to do street parking.

 

I've often wondered this about people who live in apartment complexes that have no onsite charging capability.

Take a major metropolitan apartment complex with  a capacity of well over a thousand people. Now times that with the number of apartment complexes in that metropolitan city. Then times that with the number of apartment complexes per the total of apartment complexes in any given Country. All with no onsite charging capabilities.

Yeah... the numbers of a substainable world of EV's doesn't add up.

Oh, by the way... over 38 million Americans live in some sort of an apartment...

https://roberthancockco.com/11-fun-facts-of-apartment-living-in-america/

 

[DeerDK]

28 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

I've often wondered this about people who live in apartment complexes that have no onsite charging capability.

Take a major metropolitan apartment complex with  a capacity of well over a thousand people. Now times that with the number of apartment complexes in that metropolitan city. Then times that with the number of apartment complexes per the total of apartment complexes in any given Country. All with no onsite charging capabilities.

Yeah... the numbers of a substainable world of EV's doesn't add up.

Oh, by the way... over 38 million Americans live in some sort of an apartment...

https://roberthancockco.com/11-fun-facts-of-apartment-living-in-america/

 

Can't speak for US as you guys are extremely decentralized by European standards, but here I'm Copenhagen the charging stations are shooting up everywhere. I work in a company that works with the charging companies and they are expanding wildly. 

Here the norm is to charge for a couple of hours, and then move your car. 

I don't own a car for myself, it doesn't make sense with the dense network of public transportation for me, but given how many EVs I see, and I know people living in the city who has one, it's quite doable. 

A lot of people can also charge at work. 

[wanderingfool2]

6 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

In 78,000 miles and 5.5 years, I've changed the engine oil 5 times

Which is still every ~15,000 miles.  Although it is also recommended at minimum every 2 years.  An ICE, depending on model actually recommends doing it every 10,000 miles (some are also 15,000 miles depending on model).

 

So yea, you are changing at nearly the rate of an ICE, or maybe 2/3 of an ICE...which means there is a lot more maintenance cost in regards to that.

 

6 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

The car weighs about 3,500 pounds, or roughly the same as a mid-trim 2018 Equinox (which is built on the same platform). The traction battery is only about 400 pounds of that.

Actually, it's curb weight is 3794 lbs, vs Equinox's 3274 lbs.  A difference of 520 lbs or ~16% heavier than the Equinox. (Depending on where you grab the volt's curb weight as there are some different sources, and depending on model years as well).

 

Also the Equinox is also, longer (slightly), wider (inch or two), and 9 inches taller.

 

6 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

I've noticed no degradation in the traction battery, and it still has the factory 12v AGM battery in the trunk.

 

The traction battery is LiFePo4, not NMC, so it can handle far more charge cycles. The controller babies the battery, keeping it between 20% and 80% SOC. (It will only tap that last 20% in limp mode if you run completely out of gas.) And it's also liquid cooled, so it doesn't cook itself to death like the first-gen Leaf pack.

Based on what I can see of data, it seems like at 100k mark the standard drop in range is 10 - 15% for Volt's; which given the small EV portion of their range means after that stage you will be doing more ICE driving on average.  (Keep in mind they intentionally sectioned of parts of the battery so that they can reduce the perceived wear and tear).

 

6 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

If you don't use gas for a few weeks, the car will run the engine at a high idle for at least 20 minutes to clear the lines of aging gas. I haven't gone long enough between fill-ups to trigger this, but apparently if you don't put fresh gas in for too long it will use the gas in the tank until it's low and you refill.

 

I've got a different car that sat for a few years and still ran on gas I put in last time I drove it. (It had Sta-Bil in the tank and a bunch evaporated over the years, but still.)

Not all Volt's are the same...earlier models would average fuel and trigger at the one year mark. 

 

Also, don't confuse being able to run vs being able to run without longterm damage.  I'm the type of person who when I buy a car I expect to be able to keep it going for at least 20 years.  I can tell you now, my Camry hybrid is starting to show signs of needing a battery replacement, after 8 years of moderate type of driving.

 

6 hours ago, Lurking said:

Just a clarification on hybrid maintenance. Good hybrids like the Prius probably have similar maintenance to an ICE car and little better reliability. The eCVT is much simpler and less prone to failure than a traditional automatic tranny. Battery replacement also isn't a common issue before several hundred thousand miles. Brakes live much longer, there is no starter, alternator and accessory belt to fail or need replacement. They have an electric oil pump, which should improve lubrication a bit since it can change speed based on need and isn't related to engine rpm.

In general though, I think most of the costs occur from oil changes.  The EOL types of ones, where it's like engine rebuilds and other stuff I don't really count.  The bulk of the time people bring in their vehicles to get oil changes though, and that really is where it eats up time and money.

 

1 hour ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

I've often wondered this about people who live in apartment complexes that have no onsite charging capability.

Take a major metropolitan apartment complex with  a capacity of well over a thousand people. Now times that with the number of apartment complexes in that metropolitan city. Then times that with the number of apartment complexes per the total of apartment complexes in any given Country. All with no onsite charging capabilities.

Yeah... the numbers of a substainable world of EV's doesn't add up.

Oh, by the way... over 38 million Americans live in some sort of an apartment...

There's area's that are pushing for stalls in apartments to have charging capabilities built in...but generally yea, lots of people still park on the street.

[Needfuldoer]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Actually, it's curb weight is 3794 lbs, vs Equinox's 3274 lbs.  A difference of 520 lbs or ~16% heavier than the Equinox. (Depending on where you grab the volt's curb weight as there are some different sources, and depending on model years as well).

 

Also the Equinox is also, longer (slightly), wider (inch or two), and 9 inches taller.

 

https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/volt/2018.tab1.html

 

https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/Equinox/2018.tab1.html

 

Okay fine, the 2018 Volt is 216 pounds heavier than the base model 2018 Equinox. They're both still derived from the same D2XX platform.

 

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Based on what I can see of data, it seems like at 100k mark the standard drop in range is 10 - 15% for Volt's; which given the small EV portion of their range means after that stage you will be doing more ICE driving on average.  (Keep in mind they intentionally sectioned of parts of the battery so that they can reduce the perceived wear and tear).

First gen, or second gen? There are substantial differences between them.

 

Limiting the battery to 80% SOC doesn't just disguise normal wear; batteries wear most when they're charged to capacity, deep discharged, and charged rapidly. Limiting the "full" charge and and kicking the engine on at 20% should extend the pack's life.

 

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Also, don't confuse being able to run vs being able to run without longterm damage.  I'm the type of person who when I buy a car I expect to be able to keep it going for at least 20 years.  I can tell you now, my Camry hybrid is starting to show signs of needing a battery replacement, after 8 years of moderate type of driving.

You have a 1.7kWh NiMh battery. I'd expect a lithium battery with 10 times the capacity to hold up better than that, even if it's more heavily utilized.

[Lurking]

3 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

In general though, I think most of the costs occur from oil changes.  The EOL types of ones, where it's like engine rebuilds and other stuff I don't really count.  The bulk of the time people bring in their vehicles to get oil changes though, and that really is where it eats up time and money.

For a regular hybrid engine, oil changes may be about the same as for regular ICE. Forget about manufacturers claiming 15,000 mile oil changes.... those never are manufacturers known for longevity. 

 

For a plugin hybrid oil should last longer since the ICE doesn't run a lot, and when it runs, more on longer trips and not in City traffic. Fewer cold starts and so. 

 

But engine oil changes are $40 or so at the dealer for my car. So that really isn't my main concern. If you do it every $10K miles on a regular ICE car, you pay much more for just brakes. 

 

EOL repairs are important even if you already sold the car by that time. Because resale value reflects expected longevity repairs. That's why a Toyota has better resale value than a Kia or BMW. 

[wanderingfool2]

4 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

Okay fine, the 2018 Volt is 216 pounds heavier than the base model 2018 Equinox. They're both still derived from the same D2XX platform.

By volume, on the page you linked shows that it has a 10% smaller volume than the Equinox; which does effect weight as well.

 

2 hours ago, Lurking said:

But engine oil changes are $40 or so at the dealer for my car. So that really isn't my main concern. If you do it every $10K miles on a regular ICE car, you pay much more for just brakes. 

$40 over the lifetime of a vehicle does make a difference.  If you drive lets say only 10k a year, that's still $400 over a 10 year period.  Not sure what the dealerships are where you are, but at least here if you bring it in for an oil change you are more than likely going to have to wait at least an hour as well.

 

Also, there is a factor that if you don't drive often you still need to replace oil at certain timed intervals. 

[Lurking]

11 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

By volume, on the page you linked shows that it has a 10% smaller volume than the Equinox; which does effect weight as well.

 

$40 over the lifetime of a vehicle does make a difference.  If you drive lets say only 10k a year, that's still $400 over a 10 year period.  Not sure what the dealerships are where you are, but at least here if you bring it in for an oil change you are more than likely going to have to wait at least an hour as well.

 

Also, there is a factor that if you don't drive often you still need to replace oil at certain timed intervals. 

Look up what brakes cost on a regular car over 100K miles. Way more than oil changes. Or look up tire cost. 

 

I don't know why engine oil changes are important in this discussion since that cost is about the same for hybrids or regular ICE cars. Oil changes should cost less for plugin hybrids like the Volt or Prius Prime, or non existent for EV.

 

For any of the drivetrain options you also have coolant, tranny fluid, brake fluid etc. You won't get to zero maintenance.

 

Edit: here a comparison between 2 hybrids. Quite some differences and proofs you can't generalize "all EV", "all Hybrids" etc. you need to actually inform yourself before buying a specific car. Ideally don't get your car information from a computer guy... 

 

 

 

[LinusTech]

Maintenance on the Volt was hardly anything. Whatever I'm eating in oil changes I'm saving in regen braking.

 

Anyone who hates on the Volt has never owned one. Period.

[nbrowser]

6 hours ago, LinusTech said:

Maintenance on the Volt was hardly anything. Whatever I'm eating in oil changes I'm saving in regen braking.

 

Anyone who hates on the Volt has never owned one. Period.

I recently purchased it's gas only close cousin, a 2017 Cruze, the Volt's D2XX/D2UX Platform mate...incredibly nice driving car, can only imagine the Volt drives just as nice.

[djksm]

On 12/4/2023 at 4:52 PM, LinusTech said:

Maintenance on the Volt was hardly anything. Whatever I'm eating in oil changes I'm saving in regen braking.

 

Anyone who hates on the Volt has never owned one. Period.

UwU linus aeaaahhh lol the volt need oil changes?

[Spindel]

I love the EV needs less maintenance argument. 

 

While true in theory in reality everyone's EV seem to spend more time at the shop for fixes than people with ICE/hybrid cars.

 

 

I'm not here to argue for or against EV/ICE cars, it's just that this argument seems to translate badly between theory and reality (currently). 

[wanderingfool2]

On 12/4/2023 at 1:52 PM, LinusTech said:

Maintenance on the Volt was hardly anything. Whatever I'm eating in oil changes I'm saving in regen braking.

 

Anyone who hates on the Volt has never owned one. Period.

And that essentially ignores the whole heart of the argument.  What you said on the WAN show regarding the person who returned their Volt was either ignorant or classist.

 

You acted like the person who always has to fill up their Volt instead of charging it was dumb.  Like I mentioned in my first post, there are lots of people who do not have access to charging, and at that stage you pretty much are paying more than an ICE vehicle overall.

 

Since you claim "electricity" is so cheap here, why don't we do some basic math of charging at a BC Hydro charger for the Volt (if you assume the person can't charge at home).  Prior to this year, charging at the slow rate (which the volt would do)

https://electricvehicles.bchydro.com/how-use-our-fast-chargers/how-much-does-it-cost-charge-fast-charging-station

It's for fast chargers, but you effectively charge at the slowest speed due to the Volt's architecture.  So that's 12.23 cents a minute.  Per the press junkets in 2018 they said it could charge in as little as 2.3 hours.  So that's ~$16 to fill up or 85km/$16 (5km/$)...that's the same economy I get with my none hybrid van.

 

Volt's and plug-in hybrids only really make sense these days when range is going to be the deciding factor.  They cost almost as much as EV's these days, and have more overall costs than an EV.  As mentioned, you could get a Tesla for nominally more, while getting more technology and over lower maintenance costs (And it's actually cheaper to buy a Tesla if you factor out that .  While people will  have price points, the jump from an ICE to hybrid is massive and a jump from a hybrid to EV is relatively small.

 

The reason why I mention oil changes is because it's PART of the overall experience.  If the talk is about it saving money overall, then you need to concede that there are people who it will not save money for; as it's not practical for them to own.  To dismiss that mindset of "never owned one" is just an entitles viewset given that you already pointed out someone who you saw returning one.

 

This again is to point out that you assume they could make money during the pandemic years, when it ignores that the Mach-e went from barely making money at it's price point to losing money within a year; and that was with the higher price point.  The Volt doesn't make sense, as it would have to be priced too high.

 

What you are doing is judging a product that should never be priced the way it is; you mentioned on previous WAN shows, which showed your ignorance, that Tesla was only making a profit because of the government stuff...but you failed to even recognize that it was still being sold at a price that was "cheaper" to manufacture (they were losing more money due to development and other costs)...the Volt in general just cost too much to build.

 

 

On 12/4/2023 at 5:47 AM, Lurking said:

Look up what brakes cost on a regular car over 100K miles. Way more than oil changes. Or look up tire cost. 

 

I don't know why engine oil changes are important in this discussion since that cost is about the same for hybrids or regular ICE cars. Oil changes should cost less for plugin hybrids like the Volt or Prius Prime, or non existent for EV.

It's the overall concept that you are getting negatives from both.

 

It's important because it works in decision making.  It's like the people who say, buy an EV and just plug it in your home; and when people respond, but I have to fast charge, people say they are doing it wrong.

 

If you take into account what the Volt would have to be priced at to make a profit, it comes in line of an EV equivalent.  So at that stage, things like $50 oil changes start making a difference.  The simple fact is compared to an EV, it will require more maintenance, compared to an ICE sure it might be less...but as someone who has driven hybrids I can say that the costs still exist and they can still be high compared to an EV; and sometimes comparable to ICE when you factor in that EV components will also need eventual maintence as well.

 

The thing about plugin hybrids though, the oil changes depending how often you drive still actually would require the same frequency.  As an example, if you are like my brother who over the course of 10 years has driven his car 40,000km.  Based on what I could tell the Volt would require 5 - 10 oil changes between that time (because oil changes can be a function of miles driven OR time based whichever comes first); roughly the same as his ICE would require.  The brakes would need the same maintenance as well, as it's not that the pads gets worn away but rather the rubber/adhesives used starts to deteriorate due to age.  The additional cost for him buying something like a PIH doesn't make sense, as it's a heavy upfront cost while the only benefit being that it can be charged at home.

 

For reference, at today's gas prices that's $8000 in gas spent in 10 years (He gets about 500 km for $100 in gas), with Volt the charging rate at 14 cents/kWh would be about ~$1000 (But still 10 tanks, so $500 in gas)...so ~$1500. So for any plugin hybrid or EV for him the price would have to be within $6500.  [It's actually worse when you consider the self discharge rate and the less efficiency in winter)...in winter Volt's efficiency can drop by 50%.

[Erioch]

11 hours ago, djksm said:

UwU linus aeaaahhh lol the volt need oil changes?

Are you having a stroke?  Do you smell toast?

 

[Monkey Dust]

7 hours ago, Spindel said:

I love the EV needs less maintenance argument. 

 

While true in theory in reality everyone's EV seem to spend more time at the shop for fixes than people with ICE/hybrid cars.

 

 

I'm not here to argue for or against EV/ICE cars, it's just that this argument seems to translate badly between theory and reality (currently). 

Engines and gearboxes (or transmissions, if you prefer) are now pretty reliable, at least early on in a car's life. What goes wrong often on cars now is the electrical systems, and as they get older the suspension. Sure, EVs don't need oil and belt changes, but they have all the other car stuff to go wrong.

 

I don't know what it is like elsewhere in the world, but in the UK we have a shortage of people qualified to work on EVs. So if your EV does break, and the fix involves any of the high voltage equipment, you could be in for a bit of a wait. Could that be one of the reason EVs seems to be spending more time off the road?

[Lurking]

7 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

It's important because it works in decision making.  It's like the people who say, buy an EV and just plug it in your home; and when people respond, but I have to fast charge, people say they are doing it wrong.

 

If you don't have access to regular cost (like 15ct/kWh) and depend on commercial public chargers, just forget about EV or plugin hybrids if you value economics. Not charging at home also takes away the convenience a battery car has (not needing to go somewhere to fill up).

 

At 40-50 ct /kWh at Public chargers you are better off with a regular Prius economically. 

 

Can't make general statements and need to consider the individual situation. Here in WI an EV has to pay an ADDITIONAL registration tax (compared to ICE) of $175 annually. Depending on how much you drive, that can be 2-3 months of gas cost out of the 12 months. They now also add a 3ct/kWh tax for public chargers. For regular hybrids WI charges $75 ADDITIONAL annual registration fee compared to non-hybrids. I'm not sure how they treat plugin hybrids like the Prime or Volt, but I fear the worst. Depending on where you live and driving pattern, YMMV.

[Spindel]

41 minutes ago, Monkey Dust said:

Engines and gearboxes (or transmissions, if you prefer) are now pretty reliable, at least early on in a car's life. What goes wrong often on cars now is the electrical systems, and as they get older the suspension. Sure, EVs don't need oil and belt changes, but they have all the other car stuff to go wrong.

 

I don't know what it is like elsewhere in the world, but in the UK we have a shortage of people qualified to work on EVs. So if your EV does break, and the fix involves any of the high voltage equipment, you could be in for a bit of a wait. Could that be one of the reason EVs seems to be spending more time off the road?

Yeah I know, didn't really touch upon that point. 

 

And btw the maintenance that ICE have that EVs don't is mainly chasing oil, which isn't that expensive or hard and adjusting the timing belt/chain every 100 000 km or so. 

 

The rest of the service points are still needed for EVs. And by the way most EVs still have a differential that needs oil changes (but not as often as the engine). And some (I'm thinking of the older Tesla S, don't know if this goes for newer S:es) had a 2 speed transmission. So there goes a lot of the in theory less complexity with EVs. 

 

Still I'm not arguing against or for EV/ICE. But people need to face reality that EVs aren't magic and even if you reduce the amount of moving parts from 50 something in a ICE engine to 1-4 in an EV (depending on how many motors it has) you still have the maintenance in the entire rest of the car. 

[Lurking]

7 minutes ago, Spindel said:

Yeah I know, didn't really touch upon that point. 

 

And btw the maintenance that ICE have that EVs don't is mainly chasing oil, which isn't that expensive or hard and adjusting the timing belt/chain every 100 000 km or so. 

 

The rest of the service points are still needed for EVs. And by the way most EVs still have a differential that needs oil changes (but not as often as the engine). And some (I'm thinking of the older Tesla S, don't know if this goes for newer S:es) had a 2 speed transmission. So there goes a lot of the in theory less complexity with EVs. 

 

Still I'm not arguing against or for EV/ICE. But people need to face reality that EVs aren't magic and even if you reduce the amount of moving parts from 50 something in a ICE engine to 1-4 in an EV (depending on how many motors it has) you still have the maintenance in the entire rest of the car. 

If you have a badly designed EV like the Bolt, you have 3 cooling loops that need specific programmed procedure to change the fluid. That could cost as much as the oil changes you saved. They also have rear axle breakages (not warranty) because the ICE platform they used can't handle the weight. Not cheap!

 

If you consider any EV or plugin hybrid, go with one designed from the ground up to be that and from a company with a good track record  Don't buy one of those cars where the very same car has an ICE, hybrid and EV version. 

 

And don't ever buy a chargeable car that doesn't use the NACS (Tesla) plug. Everyone will use that starting 2025 and your CCS plug car won't find a charger in a few years. Using an adapter will get old quickly and may not always work. 

[djksm]

3 hours ago, Erioch said:

Are you having a stroke?  Do you smell toast?

 

UwU yes 

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, Lurking said:

If you don't have access to regular cost (like 15ct/kWh) and depend on commercial public chargers, just forget about EV or plugin hybrids if you value economics. Not charging at home also takes away the convenience a battery car has (not needing to go somewhere to fill up).

 

At 40-50 ct /kWh at Public chargers you are better off with a regular Prius economically. 

 

Can't make general statements and need to consider the individual situation. Here in WI an EV has to pay an ADDITIONAL registration tax (compared to ICE) of $175 annually. Depending on how much you drive, that can be 2-3 months of gas cost out of the 12 months. They now also add a 3ct/kWh tax for public chargers. For regular hybrids WI charges $75 ADDITIONAL annual registration fee compared to non-hybrids. I'm not sure how they treat plugin hybrids like the Prime or Volt, but I fear the worst. Depending on where you live and driving pattern, YMMV.

That is my general point though, that people can't just toss aside things such as maintenance, things like oil changes, engines/battery replacements etc.  It's why I essentially mentioned that there is the whole mentality of "you're doing it wrong"; where Linus literally talks about never plugging in your Volt as "peak dumb" 

 

It came across as Linus not understanding that people don't always get the choice to plug in their car.  It also was wrong to assume GM wouldn't be taking a bath when the pandemic hit, because the fact is they would have had to raise the price of the Volt to a point where it didn't make sense unless you wanted it specifically for the range.

 

The whole issue is GM sold the Volt at a loss, they sold the Bolt at a loss (recently discontinued), they are now targeting the higher priced vehicles because that's where they are still making money but their margins compared to ICE just aren't there.  The Volt was effectively heavily subsidized by ICE sales, so it never stood a chance.