Posted November 28, 2023 15 hours ago, starsmine said: Bro... This is still a fanless solution. Yeah, you're right. My use of fanless there wasn't quite what I meant. I meant that Apple's choice of passive cooling for the Air and active cooling via fan for the Pro was validated in this video. 15 hours ago, starsmine said: There is ZERO reason for the macbook air to thermal throttle in a cold room at load other then some manager taking the piss when solid state cooling exists. This is not a successfull passive cooling solution. People buy macbook airs and sometimes (shocking I know) encode a video I disagree here. All laptops are thermally constrained. Engineering teams have to balance how much heat to let the system generate and how to get rid of it. Thermal throttling can be a valid way to keep a system's temps safe. Thinkpads, and other laptops that offer high end single threaded performance often choose to make this trade off for sustained multi-core workloads. Because it allows you to push single core performance (which people feel much more) further. In the Macbook Air, Apple decided to let the peak heat output be such that extended workloads that push the CPU and GPU will result in some thermal throttling. In the Macbook Pro, they decided to put in active cooling system which would have fans spin instead of thermal throttling. The M1/M2 Macbook Air would be a worse laptop than it is now if a noisy cooling solution were added to it, just so that you could run workloads like Cinebench for 30+ minutes without thermal throttling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 10 minutes ago, maplepants said: Yeah, you're right. My use of fanless there wasn't quite what I meant. I meant that Apple's choice of passive cooling for the Air and active cooling via fan for the Pro was validated in this video. I disagree here. All laptops are thermally constrained. Engineering teams have to balance how much heat to let the system generate and how to get rid of it. Thermal throttling can be a valid way to keep a system's temps safe. Thinkpads, and other laptops that offer high end single threaded performance often choose to make this trade off for sustained multi-core workloads. Because it allows you to push single core performance (which people feel much more) further. In the Macbook Air, Apple decided to let the peak heat output be such that extended workloads that push the CPU and GPU will result in some thermal throttling. In the Macbook Pro, they decided to put in active cooling system which would have fans spin instead of thermal throttling. The M1/M2 Macbook Air would be a worse laptop than it is now if a noisy cooling solution were added to it, just so that you could run workloads like Cinebench for 30+ minutes without thermal throttling. You don't need a noisy cooling solution. That is a false binary. Yes engineering teams have to balance heat. I dont know what stating that brings to the table, That is exactly what Im saying they should do, because obviously, they are not here. I keep stressing that this is in a cool room, on a desk so it its not being chocked like it would be on a bed or a lap or in a room that isn't Canada room temp in the dead of winter. This is literally the best-case scenario thermal-wise for a laptop. If it throttles in non-ideal cases, so be it. But BEST case thermal it should NEVER. That is part of balancing thermal displacement. You should hit a power throttle in the BEST CASE cooling environment, not a thermal throttle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 3 hours ago, starsmine said: You don't need a noisy cooling solution. That is a false binary. Yes engineering teams have to balance heat. I dont know what stating that brings to the table, That is exactly what Im saying they should do, because obviously, they are not here. I keep stressing that this is in a cool room, on a desk so it its not being chocked like it would be on a bed or a lap or in a room that isn't Canada room temp in the dead of winter. This is literally the best-case scenario thermal-wise for a laptop. If it throttles in non-ideal cases, so be it. But BEST case thermal it should NEVER. That is part of balancing thermal displacement. You should hit a power throttle in the BEST CASE cooling environment, not a thermal throttle. Why though? Why should every laptop maker prioritize long running sustained multi-core CPU + GPU loads at the expense of bursty single core performance? Most users (especially Macbook Air shoppers) will care more about single core bursts than they do about workloads that mirror a 30 min Cinebench run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 Fucking hell, if Apple watched this they would probably remove our ability to even disassemble the device. I want my 15 minutes back. mY sYsTeM iS Not pErfoRmInG aS gOOd As I sAW oN yOuTuBe. WhA t IS a GoOd FaN CuRVe??!!? wHat aRe tEh GoOd OvERclok SeTTinGS FoR My CaRd?? HoW CaN I foRcE my GpU to uSe 1o0%? BuT WiLL i HaVE Bo0tllEnEcKs? RyZEN dOeS NoT peRfORm BetTer wItH HiGhER sPEED RaM!!! dId i WiN teH SiLiCON LotTerrY? yOu ShoUlD dEsHrOuD uR GPU. my SYstEm iS UNDerPerforMiNg iN WarzONE. can mY Pc Run WiNdOwS 11 ?? woUld BaKInG MY GRaPHics card fIX it? MultimETeR TeSTiNG!! aMd'S GpU DrIvErS aRe as goOD aS NviDia's YOU SHoUlD oVERCloCk yOUR ramS To 5000C18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 I thought this seemed like cool tech when stories first started coming out about them. I know this video was aimed at an Apple product, but I look forward to seeing what this tech can do in general. I think Zotac or someone used these on a mini PC and someone else on an SSD demo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 1 hour ago, maplepants said: Why though? Why should every laptop maker prioritize long running sustained multi-core CPU + GPU loads at the expense of bursty single core performance? Most users (especially Macbook Air shoppers) will care more about single core bursts than they do about workloads that mirror a 30 min Cinebench run. What are you talking about? Fixing thermals doesn't de-prioritize single-core bursts, if anything it helps it. You are not compromising single-core bursts by fixing thermals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 Just to clarify, I don't think the point of the video is that Apple needs to put this on the Macbook Air, but rather on the Macbook Pro. The Air and the Pro are basically identical except the active cooling (maybe other stuff too, but that's what seems apparent to me). Apple wants thin and light laptops, so why not put in a thin and light cooling solution? Sounds like a win-win solution to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 1 hour ago, starsmine said: What are you talking about? Fixing thermals doesn't de-prioritize single-core bursts, if anything it helps it. You are not compromising single-core bursts by fixing thermals. I think you're just misunderstanding the trade-offs being made here. Optimizing for bursty single core workloads like the M2 Macbook Air and the top configs for 13" laptops like Thinkpads do necessarily means that you'll run into thermal problems trying to sustain that load for a sustained period. Changing the clocking the CPU lower or adding a noisy cooler isn't "fixing thermals", it's making different trade-offs. I've got an M1 Macbook Air, and my previous laptop was a Thinkpad with an i7 in it. The fact that neither machine can sustain their peak performance for jobs lasting longer than 10 minutes hasn't bothered me. But I constantly enjoy the benefits of the M1 Air's passive cooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 28, 2023 35 minutes ago, maplepants said: I think you're just misunderstanding the trade-offs being made here. Optimizing for bursty single core workloads like the M2 Macbook Air and the top configs for 13" laptops like Thinkpads do necessarily means that you'll run into thermal problems trying to sustain that load for a sustained period. Changing the clocking the CPU lower or adding a noisy cooler isn't "fixing thermals", it's making different trade-offs. I've got an M1 Macbook Air, and my previous laptop was a Thinkpad with an i7 in it. The fact that neither machine can sustain their peak performance for jobs lasting longer than 10 minutes hasn't bothered me. But I constantly enjoy the benefits of the M1 Air's passive cooling. you dont need to downclock the CPU or add a noisy cooler to fix the thermals. When I said make a smaller chip. you can do fewer cores or do big little. Solid-state cooling is not loud or noisy. you can get ALOT of cooling with minimal airflow vs no airflow. or adding more surface area. or using a damn vapor chamber to move the heat rapidly to a cooler part of the chassis. like you could fin the bottom of the laptop to make a cool design to get more surface area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted November 29, 2023 23 hours ago, starsmine said: You... what about power draw? you lower clocks to control power draw and gain performance? excuse me what? that's not how this works. You’ve misread, having it clock higher and thermal throttle under sustained all core loads makes it faster than having a separate lower clocked chip. 23 hours ago, starsmine said: Cinebench is only artificial in terms that you are not getting a usable frame out at the end, Blender hits the CPU harder and longer than Cinebench does. Video exporting will hit the CPU harder and longer than Cinebench does. Dwarf fortess can hit the CPU harder and longer, Civilization can hit the CPU harder and longer. Cinebench is a great benchmark because of its consistency. Hell code compilation can if the project is big enough. A heavy spreadsheet can be heavy. Who the fuck is using blender on a MacBook Air? Also who’s trying to run AAA games on them? 23 hours ago, starsmine said: Battery performance is not what is being discussed, you get power throttled there, not thermal throttled. The goal is to put the power throttle threshold to maximize performance per watt hour, not getting the job done fast while not maximizing it so much that it negatively affects usability. also no, a higher yielding smaller chip would not make it more expensive. yes a new chip has to be designed but you are talking about a chip that can power ipads as well. Performance is being discussed. Fact is most laptops, when used as a laptop, cannot sustain the performance they have on wall power. This is never addressed or tested. The M1 also runs fine on ipads, if the eh wanted to run it without throttling they could, they could literally just clock it a little lower. They’re not going to design a smaller version of a chip when it works fine with an M1 or 2, would perform worse and cost more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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