Advice on additional cooling MO-RA3 360 or thick 560mm or more radiators on case

[Kratos]

Hi

last year I built a custom loop PC with an i9-13900K, Z790 Taichi (never goes up 40c) and a Meshify 2 XL case.

I had some temperatures issues at the begining with the CPU reaching 88-93c, after some weeks the CPU was on the 76-80c. All this with an undervolt of -100mV (had 110 first and it only crashed once during 1h stress test), I made a post about it here:

 

 

After some time at 76-80c during 3D rendering, the CPU just reached 91c now in every Render almost instantly, I don't even want to try and stress it for 5 minutes in case it reaches 100c.

I thought the thermal paste dried out so I did a replacement of the old Kryonaut to an Artic MX-6 and results where the same 91c. I also re-mounted the Thermalright LGA 1700 contact frame (I'm 99% I did it correctly).

So after a big headache, I decided to give up on the cooling.

My custom loop right now:

 

EKWB Quantum Surface 480 mm (28mm thick) radiator

4x 120mm Bequiet Lightwings Highspeed fans (2500 rpm)

EKWB Quantum Velocity 2 LGA 1700 Waterblock

EKWB Quantum Kinetic TBE 300 D5 PWM D-RGB Acetal for pump & res

Soft tube 12/16 EKWB (clear) and of course same 12/16 Quantum Torque fittings

Corsair Drain valve

Corsair clear fluid

 

So right now, in a few days, I will be draining the loop and replacing the fluid so it's the perfect time for additional cooling.

 

-Option 1: Adding an external MO-RA3 360 Pro radiator since it's right now for 200€ in my country on a deal, the only bad thing about it is that I have to buy 9x 120mm fans which is really expensive.

I was also going to add quick disconects which I will need 4 total, that is about 180€/$

So my first question is, could I run the MO-RA3 360 Pro with only 3 fans? It's 65 mm thick and the total cooling surface is 1080 mm + my already 480 mm = 1560 mm cooling surface area. Will 6 extra fans really be necessary?

It also introduces the issue of buying a fan controller + fan extensions. Indeed I would probably be at 55-60c in a full render (or even less) but the cost of having a MO-RA3 360 is a lot more than just having the MO-RA3.

If I can get away with 3 fans instead of 9, i'll take it.

 

-Option 2: Have a really thick 560 mm radiator like the EKWB X ones (58 mm thick) or one of those Alphacool 80mm thick and have it outside of the case with some quick disconects. I already have 4x 140 mm Noctua iPPC 3000 rpm fans (which draw 0.55 Amps at 3000 rpm so x4 that is 2.2 Amps which my motherboard header only handles 2.0 Amps, would need a Fan Controller regardless). That would be 560 mm + 480 mm = 1040 mm cooling performance, near a full MO-RA3 360, but less thick.

 

-Option 3: Mounting a 360 mm rad on the front of the case (my 480mm is on top) and also a 280 mm on the PSU Cover, it fits. Since I have 4x 120 mm fans on the front and also 4x 140 mm fans spread in the case, I wouldn't have to buy an additional fan.

 

Option 1 is the better one for performance and flexibility (1560 mm of surface area) but it's also the most expensive one since I'm looking at like 400+ €/$

 

Option 2 is a mixture of low cost (only the cost of the radiator itself since I have the fans) and a boost in cooling performance since it's adding to a total of 1040 mm surface area as well as flexibility, also takes less space since it can be put vertically outside the case

 

Option 3 is probably going to be better than Option 2 since it's 360+280 = 640 mm extra = 1120 mm cooling performance. But also adds the cost of 2 radiators, potential points of failures (more fittings) and also an extra quick disconnect.

 

If I can get away with mounting 3 fans only to the MO-RA3 360 I will go that route since the total cost is about 280 €/$

 

What do you guys think I should do?

[jaslion]

I mean there's literally nothing wrong with your loop.

 

Thats just how the 13900k is. It doesn't produce enough heat AT ALL to even remotelt max your current loop. Quite simply it's just how the 13900k is designed and most people that run it have it always near 100c no matter what.

 

Does sound like yours is a bit of a dud undervolting wise so not much to do there.

 

Either way you can throw all the money you want at this thing but there is basically nothing really left to do except run the pump harder in hopes it can take heat away even faster

 

It basically is just an issue of heat transfer speed due to how small it is so pretty much not fixable

[Kratos]

2 minutes ago, jaslion said:

I mean there's literally nothing wrong with your loop.

 

Thats just how the 13900k is. It doesn't produce enough heat AT ALL to even remotelt max your current loop. Quite simply it's just how the 13900k is designed and most people that run it have it always near 100c no matter what.

 

Does sound like yours is a bit of a dud undervolting wise so not much to do there.

 

Either way you can throw all the money you want at this thing but there is basically nothing really left to do except run the pump harder in hopes it can take heat away even faster

 

It basically is just an issue of heat transfer speed due to how small it is so pretty much not fixable

Yeah I know, but I've seen videos of triple rads or MO-RA3 360/420 doing like 6 GHz Overclock at like 72c which means that triple rads can indeed cool the chip at really low temps

[jaslion]

1 minute ago, Kratos said:

Yeah I know, but I've seen videos of triple rads or MO-RA3 360/420 doing like 6 GHz Overclock at like 72c which means that triple rads can indeed cool the chip at really low temps

What cpu block and pump?

 

Because this might be as simple as they have a waaaay better flowrate and heat exchange system

[Kratos]

Just now, Kratos said:

Yeah I know, but I've seen videos of triple rads or MO-RA3 360/420 doing like 6 GHz Overclock at like 72c which means that triple rads can indeed cool the chip at really low temps

With a 13900K and no undervolt. I have probably lost the silicon lottery but if I can run it at 5.5 GHz all core as I am now at 260W and have like 60-65c I all for it. 

Since it's a custom loop, I can also use this in my future upgrades like in 5 years or so

[Kratos]

1 minute ago, jaslion said:

What cpu block and pump?

 

Because this might be as simple as they have a waaaay better flowrate and heat exchange system

Same CPU Block, Pump different. But the one I have is already one of the best ones, like 1500 L/Hour

[Kratos]

I really hope Intel or AMD does something about this chips on future designs, they're already on the thermal limit.

Meanwhile Threadripper with an OC drawing like 520W and running 80c on a 360 AIO thanks to it's bigger surface area, maybe the future of chips is just making them bigger in surface area (not like Threadripper, but maybe half the size) with 24-32 cores should at least cool like 15c better

[thrasher_565]

i9-13900K is a small cpu well the thredripper is like twice the size... imposably to compare...

hi wat small cpus are a new thing and finding out the problems with them as pointed out.

 

if you have an extra rad hook it up and see if there a diffrance first. imo

[Kratos]

I don't have an extra rad, you think I should buy another one like the 560 mm to test the waters?

[jaslion]

10 hours ago, Kratos said:

I really hope Intel or AMD does something about this chips on future designs, they're already on the thermal limit.

Meanwhile Threadripper with an OC drawing like 520W and running 80c on a 360 AIO thanks to it's bigger surface area, maybe the future of chips is just making them bigger in surface area (not like Threadripper, but maybe half the size) with 24-32 cores should at least cool like 15c better

Not comparable. They have a MUCH bigger profile and heat spread which massively impacts their cooling capabilities in a positive way.

 

13900k is just too tightly packed. You can try with a better rad but like if your current loop doesn't cut it nothing will.

[Kratos]

24 minutes ago, jaslion said:

Not comparable. They have a MUCH bigger profile and heat spread which massively impacts their cooling capabilities in a positive way.

 

13900k is just too tightly packed. You can try with a better rad but like if your current loop doesn't cut it nothing will.

Yup, that is what i'm saying, the industry needs to change and make bigger CPUs so the heat dissipates well over a larger surface area.

But bigger CPUs means adding more cost and less die per user, honestly I would prefer to pay like 800 - 900€/$ per high end CPU if it can be cooled with an AIO or custom loop since at the end you're saving up on cooling.

 

Well, I've seen MO-RA3 videos that do cut it with a massive 6GHz all core OC at 72c so it seems it is possible, but just under extreme overkill setups like that one.

[thrasher_565]

On 11/25/2023 at 5:08 AM, Kratos said:

Yup, that is what i'm saying, the industry needs to change and make bigger CPUs so the heat dissipates well over a larger surface area.

But bigger CPUs means adding more cost and less die per user, honestly I would prefer to pay like 800 - 900€/$ per high end CPU if it can be cooled with an AIO or custom loop since at the end you're saving up on cooling.

 

Well, I've seen MO-RA3 videos that do cut it with a massive 6GHz all core OC at 72c so it seems it is possible, but just under extreme overkill setups like that one.

there are many factors then just this cpu is stupid because my cpu cant do what i want.

there is silicon lottery were you can get a higher score with lower power... meaning buying 2 of the same cpu can be different. then there the testing and how its all done.

 

most likely the cpu dose what its clams to do but then you go ahead and push it more so... its you is the problem.

 

the cpu is not responsible for what the motherboard dose to the cpu ether...

 

not saying more rads cant help it really could help but like i said there so many variables...

 

not only that some cpus are made out to wast of other's so its basically free to make...

Edited November 26, 2023 by thrasher_565

[Kratos]

I'm going to revive this thread because after some time I've done some extensive stuff and found interesting results that might be useful for anyone with a similar setup or a 13900K with custom loop.

 

-1st, I decided to go external 560 mm thick radiator 60mm EK Quantum Surface X560 with Bequiet Lightwings Highspeed 2200 rpm 140mm. I haven't got it setup yet because I need 3 more fittings to arrive since I'm going to do a complete flush of the fluid, a bit of re-flushing with distilled water to remove leftovers of old fluid and then install quick disconnects on each tube, so basically re-do all the tubing again. I'll post the results when it's done to see how many degrees did I drop.

 

-2nd. There is, IMO a design flaw in my motherboard. My existing 4x Lightwings Highspeed fans are on the 480mm slim rad, conected to the CPU_FAN_1 header. I've got a PDF of my Motherboard Asrock Z790 Taichi's manual. It's from November 2022, it states that the CPU_FAN_1 header supports up to 2.0 Amps. Then, I re-downloaded an updated version from June 2023 which said that CPU_FAN_1 supports only up to 1.0 Amps. Contacted Asrock and they confirmed it's 1.0 Amps. My x4 fans at 2500 rpm get up to 1.80 Amps... been using that and have not overloaded the header. Probably because it has an OCPT where it limits the power draw to 1.0 Amps. Changed the fans to a CHA_FAN header which support up to 2.0 Amps and set up in BIOS to react to CPU temps.

 

-3rd. I manually set up in the BIOS the CPU_FAN_2_WP_3A to "Water Pump 3A" instead of "Auto" and set up "standard" in mode. Also react to CPU temps. Don't know if that did something...

 

-4th. With all these, results are....confusing to say the least. I know ambient temperature is important, but it now seems extra important with this CPU. It's also very sensitive to power drawn. For example an extra 5W can literally increase my temps to +3c and about 12W more can increase them to 11c. I've done literally like 30 tests in different conditions and yes, as obvious, the more airflow there is in the room (less closed doors) the better. If ambient temp is very low and you have open doors and windows it will be A LOT lower temps, yes, this is OBVIOUS but it seems like the 13th Gen is REALLY sensitive to these. My former CPU i9-7940X didn't have that problem since load temps between summer and winter where like 8c difference and ambient temp was like 20c difference (with a 360 mm AIO). Neither did my old 4790K which was something like 5-8c delta between summer & winter on load temps.

 

Re-did some tests after all this and the CPU was maxed at like 85c not 91c as I was having in summer. Power was like 254W (have all intel limits off) that was first week of december. Closed door & window. Ambient about 16-17c

 

After a month, did the tests again with closed doors & windows. Ambient about 14-15c. 82-83c max. Power was 249W

 

Now did the tests again with ambient temp of 10c. Temps where 79c max. Power 246W

 

During the night ambient is about 4-5c. Temps 77c. Power about 244W.

 

So yeah, as you can see ambient temp is crucial for this CPU. It wasn't so important to my other CPUs. Even the Ryzen 4600G server/NAS I own hasn't got that big of a delta between seasons. Will probably still do the 560 mm external thick rad since I have it already here since a week ago. Will post the results next week when everything arrives, I expect to drop 10c or so with 1040 mm of surface area (480+560). I also watched Jayztwocents video from Skunkworks revival, he used a thick 58mm 480mm rad from EKWB (mine is the slim version) and managed to get about 84-87c on the 14900K with 5.7 GHz all core. Since its a thicker rad than mine and his waterblock is a massive monoblock + his CPU is OC to 5.7 (vs 5.5 mine), is very representative of the results I've got here.

 

Hope this helped anyone out there with the same issue & questions

 

[thrasher_565]

ya at some point a small amount of voltage adds alot of heat so making it pointless imo...

evry 1c in ambient temps your cpu will go up 1c. so there the same.  the more heat you dump in to the room faster heats up up and the intake are will be hotter and so on.

 

more water flow can lower temps but with jet plates in blocks its not worth it. but back in the day people used 2 or more pumps and got around 7lpm of flow. and also over volted the pumps to 13v.

qdc would also be a big bottle neck on flow rate...

 

but we will have to see i guess.

 

i will have 3x 560mm rads for my 3090 and 2x 560mm rads for my cpu.

 

Edited January 14 by thrasher_565

[Kratos]

I heard there's also a point of diminishing returns to water flow. Like for example pump speed doesn't really lower temps, but I have yet to test that or really find any accurate results that provide information about it. I honestly prefer to add a radiator rather than mess up with the pump. Since the pump is crucial for the system. 

 

Maybe in the future I add another one just for redundancy and flow consistency (since I will have 4 LONG tubes with quick disconnects and a lot of fittings) but right now I'm just concerned about the CPU temps being below 80c on a hot summer day.

 

Wow 3x 560mm for a 3090? That is really overkill, your temps must be like 30c under a heavy load. I had a 360 mm AIO for my old 7940X it was just about enough. Like 75c on summer hot day under load. With 2x 560mm well....probably doesn't even go past 40c under load.

 

Would be curious to see if anyone has attempted a crazy like Quad 560 mm radiators on a 13900K 

[thrasher_565]

18 minutes ago, Kratos said:

I heard there's also a point of diminishing returns to water flow. Like for example pump speed doesn't really lower temps, but I have yet to test that or really find any accurate results that provide information about it. I honestly prefer to add a radiator rather than mess up with the pump. Since the pump is crucial for the system. 

 

Maybe in the future I add another one just for redundancy and flow consistency (since I will have 4 LONG tubes with quick disconnects and a lot of fittings) but right now I'm just concerned about the CPU temps being below 80c on a hot summer day.

 

Wow 3x 560mm for a 3090? That is really overkill, your temps must be like 30c under a heavy load. I had a 360 mm AIO for my old 7940X it was just about enough. Like 75c on summer hot day under load. With 2x 560mm well....probably doesn't even go past 40c under load.

 

Would be curious to see if anyone has attempted a crazy like Quad 560 mm radiators on a 13900K 

use the quote button if you want people to respond.

 

flow rate dose impact temps but flow is choked by alot of things and the mager one being jet plates. before jetplates people did w/e it takes to get the flow up. some case knocking off like 6 to 7c. but we use the jet plate now so once the flow is good enough dose not mater. what is the max flow you can do with a jet plate and see 1c drop i dont no. it would vary on alot of factors, tube langth, fittings size / bends. all pumps are not the same so one could be better then another same gose for top. there so much stuff its not worth nit picking for like 1-2c imo and you can spend hundreds of dollars for it.

 

not only that even if you got a 1c drop can that be used for anything like will that get you a oc notch or not. witch ocing is pointless for the most point.

 

then there how the sofware reports hotspots and were thow seners are put are still not understand.

mb them selfs also effect ocing too.

 

 

Edited January 15 by thrasher_565

[Kratos]

Well, I finally did it. External 560mm thick radiator. Results are dissapointing. I used Koolance QD3s quick disconnects on all 4 tubes, I know Quick Disconnects are a bit restrictive. Also the runs to the radiator are a bit long and "curvy" so yeah that is a lot of restrictions, my reservoir is full of bubbles (no other part is full of bubbles).

 

Results on a quick render (Blender/Maya/Cinebench R23) about 74c maximum. I tried before with only the 480mm connecting with the quick disconnects and temps where 84c, so that is 10c cooler.

 

Long 1h run and max temps accross all 8 P-Cores are on a 73c average. The hottest core spiked to 79c but it was only during one of the runs, the rest of the times it stayed between 74-75c. E-Cores where at 60-62c, 2 of them didn't even get pass 58c.

 

Power draw is the same. 246 to 250W so nothing new there. 

Dropped about 10c you could say. Was it worth the extra cost & effort? No

 

For anyone looking to cool a 13900K....just get a MoRA3 420 Pro and some quick disconnects. If you want to save on fans get the 4x Noctua 200mm mounting and those fans. I should've done that from the beggining. Better for mantenience, leakage, cleaning and also more free space on the case. But again, the beauty of custom water cooling is that if you get something, it doesn't mutually exclude what you already have. Might get a MoRA3 420 in the future and see where it goes. Not necessary right now since I have the beast tamed. Just worried about summer it gets to 30c ambient easy and sometimes 40 here... I hope my temps don't get pass 85. Intel needs to start designing the chips with a direct die cooling design because the IHS seems like it's the problem.

[thrasher_565]

8 hours ago, Kratos said:

Well, I finally did it. External 560mm thick radiator. Results are dissapointing. I used Koolance QD3s quick disconnects on all 4 tubes, I know Quick Disconnects are a bit restrictive. Also the runs to the radiator are a bit long and "curvy" so yeah that is a lot of restrictions, my reservoir is full of bubbles (no other part is full of bubbles).

 

Results on a quick render (Blender/Maya/Cinebench R23) about 74c maximum. I tried before with only the 480mm connecting with the quick disconnects and temps where 84c, so that is 10c cooler.

 

Long 1h run and max temps accross all 8 P-Cores are on a 73c average. The hottest core spiked to 79c but it was only during one of the runs, the rest of the times it stayed between 74-75c. E-Cores where at 60-62c, 2 of them didn't even get pass 58c.

 

Power draw is the same. 246 to 250W so nothing new there. 

Dropped about 10c you could say. Was it worth the extra cost & effort? No

 

For anyone looking to cool a 13900K....just get a MoRA3 420 Pro and some quick disconnects. If you want to save on fans get the 4x Noctua 200mm mounting and those fans. I should've done that from the beggining. Better for mantenience, leakage, cleaning and also more free space on the case. But again, the beauty of custom water cooling is that if you get something, it doesn't mutually exclude what you already have. Might get a MoRA3 420 in the future and see where it goes. Not necessary right now since I have the beast tamed. Just worried about summer it gets to 30c ambient easy and sometimes 40 here... I hope my temps don't get pass 85. Intel needs to start designing the chips with a direct die cooling design because the IHS seems like it's the problem.

when ambient gos up so will the cpu temp 1 to 1. so it will thermal throttle anyway... but i mean who be gaming at 40c...

[Blue4130]

On 1/13/2024 at 11:30 PM, Kratos said:

During the night ambient is about 4-5c. Temps 77c. Power about 244W.

The ambient temp INSIDE your house is 5c at night???

[Kratos]

13 hours ago, Blue4130 said:

The ambient temp INSIDE your house is 5c at night???

Yup, not now though, we had a couple of cold days, yes, my home is really bad insulated so yeah, ambient was like 5c here. During the summer, same, the sun hits directly on my room.

[Kratos]

And yes, i'm that guy that games at 40c, since you don't want to go out with those temps. But it gets worse, because I also do 3D rendering, so that is 100% CPU load 

gaming is actually not that "hot" since the CPU got to like 60-65c and the air cooled GPU gets to that same temps, and that was last September which ambient temps where very hot. I haven't tested gaming yet on the 560mm extra rad but I bet it probably drops a couple of degrees. Maybe 5 or so.

 

We'll see if it thermothrottles because when it got to 91c last July it didn't. Stayed at 5.5 GHz, it was me who was panicking because I wasn't comfortable with those temps.

[thrasher_565]

On 2/7/2024 at 3:58 PM, Kratos said:

And yes, i'm that guy that games at 40c, since you don't want to go out with those temps. But it gets worse, because I also do 3D rendering, so that is 100% CPU load 

gaming is actually not that "hot" since the CPU got to like 60-65c and the air cooled GPU gets to that same temps, and that was last September which ambient temps where very hot. I haven't tested gaming yet on the 560mm extra rad but I bet it probably drops a couple of degrees. Maybe 5 or so.

 

We'll see if it thermothrottles because when it got to 91c last July it didn't. Stayed at 5.5 GHz, it was me who was panicking because I wasn't comfortable with those temps.

hmm the intel website dose not post a tjmax for w/e reason... 91c is a bit hi imo but i guess you do you. i guess if you make moeny with it then w/e its a business exspence. but cpus are tuff so most likely will be fine and it will thermothrott if it think its too hot.

 

35c and i was naked with a fan blowing on me slaming water... and im in a basment sweet... but you might be use to it i guess

[Kratos]

Yes, 91c is something I wouldn't do, I agree with you. I will not risk the system at 91c during 12 hours of 3D Rendering. Yesterday I had to render a whole 2h video, took like 2.5 hours and the max temp was like 76c, most of the time temps where from 68 to 72c. The average was indeed 70c, except one core that spiked to 85c. I was wondering why.. then I just saw that windows defender was doing an "exam" during that time... so I guess it won't reach anything past 90 during the summer.

 

I still think the best choice would've been a MoRa3 420 pro, but again I can always add that. It seems we are on the thermal limit of what an IHS of that size can cool. Intel better make some 2000+ pin CPU next gen. I feel like there's a point where no matter how much surface area you add it will still get really hot.

[thrasher_565]

6 hours ago, Kratos said:

Yes, 91c is something I wouldn't do, I agree with you. I will not risk the system at 91c during 12 hours of 3D Rendering. Yesterday I had to render a whole 2h video, took like 2.5 hours and the max temp was like 76c, most of the time temps where from 68 to 72c. The average was indeed 70c, except one core that spiked to 85c. I was wondering why.. then I just saw that windows defender was doing an "exam" during that time... so I guess it won't reach anything past 90 during the summer.

 

I still think the best choice would've been a MoRa3 420 pro, but again I can always add that. It seems we are on the thermal limit of what an IHS of that size can cool. Intel better make some 2000+ pin CPU next gen. I feel like there's a point where no matter how much surface area you add it will still get really hot.

ya its a problem with many cores and small surface area i do be leave. 

the 560mm is bigger then the 420 so ied say the 560 is better. the best deal is the 1080 or 1200 rads being about $250ish

200mm fans are quiet but i dont think there vary good for for rads. people the used them in the past the rad was so big it didnt need to have more cooling. there was a deal on ebay for one for about $400 i think but i didnt jump on it... oh well.

one these days ill hook up my rads to see how much cooling each rad gives. i would think 3x 560mm should be good for an i9 7920 X and 4x 560mm rads for a 3090...

Edited February 10 by thrasher_565

[Kratos]

Yeah... smaller rads are cheap & convenient but also add more cost on the long run. I will probably get the MoRa3 420 Pro since that is 1260 mm extra cooling since it's cheap and can get away with those 4x 200mm fans. Otherwise I will have to go the route of 9x 140mm which is a lot more expensive. 

I think i'm done with custom watercooling. Next thing i'll add in maybe 1 year is a MoRa 3 420 since I only need 2 tubes and 2 quick disconnects and a Pump & res just in case. Much cheaper than keep adding external 560s and internal 360 & 280 all with quick disconnects, tubes, fans, on the long run a MoRa3 is just more powerful and cheap.