Contact Frame's long-term reliability?

[Melodist]

Sup,

 

I'm putting an Intel 14900K system together and set much store by building the system in a way that it will last me at least 5 years, without voiding the installed parts' warranty.

 

I don't care about overclocking and due to Air-Cooling will limit the system to 253 Watts anyways.

 

However, from what I've gathered, it's quite essential to have a Contact Frame in the system due to the 1700 Socket's tendency to bend the CPU and worsen temperatures in the long run and generally bending the CPU physically into a concaved shape without being mounted.

 

I do trust the Frame's effectiveness and achieved effect, however, is it something that is feasible for running a reliable system for the next years to come or might it cause issues due to its unproven nature?

 

One of the things I'm wondering is whether the aluminum touching the board might damage or discolor the surface of the motherboard? Also, since it is aluminum, might transfer heat to the board from the cooler and also affect it that way? I'm reminded of Studio Speakes which I put on an Isoacoustic stand, which over the course of two years discolored the area it pressed against the paint of the speaker. Might that lead the motherboard manufacturer to deny any RMA even with a re-installed ILM?

 

I actually have the new 13th & 14th generation Thermal Grizzly frame already here with all the system's parts and want to make sure I'm not modding something that will end up for me without warranty and future arising issues?

 

What do you think?

[RONOTHAN##]

8 minutes ago, Melodist said:

One of the things I'm wondering is whether the aluminum touching the board might damage or discolor the surface of the motherboard?

It doesn't touch the board though. The Thermalright (cheap) ones have rubber pads that touch the motherboard in the same space the normal loading mechanism would touch it, and the Thermal Grizzly (expensive) don't even touch the motherboard, floating on the tension of the pins themselves if it's installed correctly.

 

Given how they work, I wouldn't have any qualms about running them in the long term, hence why every 13th gen system I've build has used one (the Thermalright ones as they're cheaper and are honestly better for any application without liquid nitrogen). One of the systems has been running for two years with no issues (it was a used Z690 board that had a contact frame installed day one from back in December 2021)

[Melodist]

4 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

It doesn't touch the board though. The Thermalright (cheap) ones have rubber pads that touch the motherboard in the same space the normal loading mechanism would touch it, and the Thermal Grizzly (expensive) don't even touch the motherboard, floating on the tension of the pins themselves if it's installed correctly.

 

Given how they work, I wouldn't have any qualms about running them in the long term, hence why every 13th gen system I've build has used one (the Thermalright ones as they're cheaper and are honestly better for any application without liquid nitrogen). One of the systems has been running for two years with no issues (it was a used Z690 board that had a contact frame installed day one from back in December 2021)

So you're generally saying if I care about my system's long term durability, I should install a contact frame?

 

I'm simply afraid to void my 14900K and Z790 Proart's warranty, which both cost me a leg and an arm currently.

 

I'd hate to have my CPU bend like that though and become a surfboard left in the sun for a whole summer.

 

Touching the motherboard: I guess I'm talking about Grizzly's new one they released recently, which know can be handtightened regularly and actually does touch the board: https://www.thermal-grizzly.com/produkte/637-cpu-contact-frame-for-13th-gen-intel-by-der8auer

 

Roman told me the following: "The 13th & 14th Gen Frame was developed by us so that it can be tightened hand-tight. In this state, it rests on the mainboard and thus prevents the frame from being tightened too much.

A torque of around 0.8-1.0 Nm should otherwise work well if you have an appropriate torque screwdriver on hand."

 

I specifically asked him for torque values because the old frame was quite specific but the new one seems to be child's play to install like the TR. 0.8 Nm already goes into the territory of actually using force to tighten something by hand down so I'm good  

[OhioYJ]

8 minutes ago, Melodist said:

So you're generally saying if I care about my system's long term durability, I should install a contact frame?

Honestly either way, your system will likely be fine. Personally I have a 12900k that's been running a thermal grizzly contact frame almost since day one, no issues. My 13900k has been running a thermal right contact frame since day one (couldn't get my hands on a thermal grizzly frame), again no issues. However the 13th gen system doesn't have the time on it my 12th gen system does. (Which my son uses now)

 

The old thermal grizzly had torque values, as it didn't touch the board, since it didn't bottom out, you could over tighten it. This was a reason some people liked the thermaleight one it bottomed out. 

[RONOTHAN##]

3 minutes ago, Melodist said:

So you're generally saying if I care about my system's long term durability, I should install a contact frame?

More saying it shouldn't matter either way. The bending is a real thing, but then again, it also isn't known to actually break the CPUs, if it was Intel would likely do a recall. Also, for the 13th/14th gen CPUs, the IHS is hardened so they shouldn't bend as much as the 12th gen chips would. 

 

9 minutes ago, Melodist said:

Touching the motherboard: I guess I'm talking about Grizzly's new one they released recently, which know can be handtightened regularly and actually does touch the board: https://www.thermal-grizzly.com/produkte/637-cpu-contact-frame-for-13th-gen-intel-by-der8auer

Didn't realize this one released already, I knew they were copying the Thermalright one but didn't know it had actually released yet. Still, I'd highly doubt that the material that would touch the motherboard would be aluminum and not a thick rubber like Thermalright does. 

[Melodist]

37 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

More saying it shouldn't matter either way. The bending is a real thing, but then again, it also isn't known to actually break the CPUs, if it was Intel would likely do a recall. Also, for the 13th/14th gen CPUs, the IHS is hardened so they shouldn't bend as much as the 12th gen chips would. 

 

Didn't realize this one released already, I knew they were copying the Thermalright one but didn't know it had actually released yet. Still, I'd highly doubt that the material that would touch the motherboard would be aluminum and not a thick rubber like Thermalright does. 

I guess the 12th Gen chips had it the worst but based on Roman's laser measurement, 14th Gen still bends.

 

It doesn't seem to be any rubber on the product pictures or am I missing it?

 

 

Are these bottom out installations hassle free when it comes to stability and reliability? Just as stable as the ILM? 70% I do on my system will be professional post audio production and I need it to be 24/7 reliable.

39 minutes ago, OhioYJ said:

Honestly either way, your system will likely be fine. Personally I have a 12900k that's been running a thermal grizzly contact frame almost since day one, no issues. My 13900k has been running a thermal right contact frame since day one (couldn't get my hands on a thermal grizzly frame), again no issues. However the 13th gen system doesn't have the time on it my 12th gen system does. (Which my son uses now)

 

The old thermal grizzly had torque values, as it didn't touch the board, since it didn't bottom out, you could over tighten it. This was a reason some people liked the thermaleight one it bottomed out. 

So you're saying I'd still be doing fine in 3 years from now using the ILM? I probably won't upgrade for the next 5+ years.

[RONOTHAN##]

45 minutes ago, Melodist said:

Are these bottom out installations hassle free when it comes to stability and reliability? Just as stable as the ILM? 70% I do on my system will be professional post audio production and I need it to be 24/7 reliable.

A little complicated, some motherboards can have some issues with memory when using the contact frame, though if you have one of those it would become pretty apparent within a few minutes of trying to use it at XMP. It's only a handful of boards, so it's not likely to be an issue, but just be aware of it. 

[Melodist]

44 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

A little complicated, some motherboards can have some issues with memory when using the contact frame, though if you have one of those it would become pretty apparent within a few minutes of trying to use it at XMP. It's only a handful of boards, so it's not likely to be an issue, but just be aware of it. 

Just the thermal grizzly floating one or also the TR with the issue?

 

Do you think I'd be fine without the frame? Running the system for the next 5 years reliably?

 

Could the frame be installed at a later point in time or will it be too late when the CPU is bend?

[RONOTHAN##]

Just now, Melodist said:

Just the thermal grizzly floating one or also the TR with the issue?

 

It's an issue with both. Some boards only have issues with one or the other, but there are some that have issues with both. 

 

1 minute ago, Melodist said:

Do you think I'd be fine without the frame? Running the system for the next 5 years reliably?

Yeah, I wouldn't really be that concerned. 

 

1 minute ago, Melodist said:

Could the frame be installed at a later point in time or will it be too late when the CPU is bend?

It will still have bent a bit, but it's also not that big a deal. The contact frame should still help even if you've installed in a year or so down the line. 

[Melodist]

19 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

It's an issue with both. Some boards only have issues with one or the other, but there are some that have issues with both. 

What's the exact reason for that? Not enough pressure on the IHS down to the pins? Since the stock ILM puts a lot of force on the CPU when clamping it down.

[RONOTHAN##]

22 minutes ago, Melodist said:

What's the exact reason for that? Not enough pressure on the IHS down to the pins? Since the stock ILM puts a lot of force on the CPU when clamping it down.

Pretty much, some motherboards have the BIOS and memory training setup to expect a very particular amount of pressure on the pins and will thus have issues if that's changed in he slightest. Other boards don't care all that much. 

[Melodist]

56 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Pretty much, some motherboards have the BIOS and memory training setup to expect a very particular amount of pressure on the pins and will thus have issues if that's changed in he slightest. Other boards don't care all that much. 

I also wonder though how coolers such as Noctuas which have a specific mounting pressure and convex shape affect the contact Frames' compatibility and whether that might harm the CPU's integrity as well. It's lots of variables I feel.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Melodist

[RONOTHAN##]

11 minutes ago, Melodist said:

I also wonder though how coolers such as Noctuas which have a specific mounting pressure and convex shape affect the contact Frames' compatibility and whether that might harm the CPU's integrity as well. It's lots of variables I feel.

The contact frames never really hurt cooling performance, though with those convex air coolers they only help a minimal amount. They make the biggest difference when you're using AIOs or especially custom water cooling where the blocks from the factory are very flat (not quite perfect, lapping helps a little, but they're no where near as convex as say an NH-D15 is). 

[Melodist]

9 hours ago, RONOTHAN## said:

The contact frames never really hurt cooling performance, though with those convex air coolers they only help a minimal amount. They make the biggest difference when you're using AIOs or especially custom water cooling where the blocks from the factory are very flat (not quite perfect, lapping helps a little, but they're no where near as convex as say an NH-D15 is). 

That's exactly what I thought, I however would like to know how Noctua feels about using contact Frames with their spring system and pre-calibrated distance to the IHS based on the ILM.

[Melodist]

Man it's thoroughly confusing the more you read about it.

 

1: Intel says it's fine and warns everybody using it, running the CPU out of spec.

 

2: on the other hand the bend looks really bad and having a frame would seem a lot better to run it for the next 5+ years

 

3: possible incompatibilities with the board and ram

 

4: possible incompatibilities with the cooler

 

I guess I'm more concerned about the CPU's higher height interacting with a cooler that is used to a lower height pushing the CPU down again and creating unknown stress to the CPU. I don't think that's been tested well enough with Air Coolers in mind.

[Melodist]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:15 AM, RONOTHAN## said:

More saying it shouldn't matter either way. The bending is a real thing, but then again, it also isn't known to actually break the CPUs, if it was Intel would likely do a recall. Also, for the 13th/14th gen CPUs, the IHS is hardened so they shouldn't bend as much as the 12th gen chips would. 

 

Didn't realize this one released already, I knew they were copying the Thermalright one but didn't know it had actually released yet. Still, I'd highly doubt that the material that would touch the motherboard would be aluminum and not a thick rubber like Thermalright does. 

I actually re-checked and there doesn't seem to be any plastic-alike insulation / padding like the ILM and Thermalright Contact Frame has.

 

Which if that's the case and my eyes and fingers aren't playing tricks on me, then the Thermalright frame is superior at a much lower price and puts the hole german engineering thing highly into question, which is quite upsetting, since I'm German too.

 

[KaitouX]

3 hours ago, Melodist said:

I actually re-checked and there doesn't seem to be any plastic-alike insulation / padding like the ILM and Thermalright Contact Frame has.

 

Which if that's the case and my eyes and fingers aren't playing tricks on me, then the Thermalright frame is superior at a much lower price and puts the hole german engineering thing highly into question, which is quite upsetting, since I'm German too.

It floats above the board making contact only with the CPU. The Thermalright one touches the board that's why it has the foam pads.

I personally think the Thermalright one is better for anyone that isn't going to do extreme overclocking. But at the same time I wouldn't use either, as even if i had the 13900/14900 I would just limit them to 180W or so, and at that point temperatures wouldn't be an issue anyway.

[Melodist]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:55 AM, KaitouX said:

It floats above the board making contact only with the CPU. The Thermalright one touches the board that's why it has the foam pads.

I personally think the Thermalright one is better for anyone that isn't going to do extreme overclocking. But at the same time I wouldn't use either, as even if i had the 13900/14900 I would just limit them to 180W or so, and at that point temperatures wouldn't be an issue anyway.

Are contact frames 100% reliable when it comes to running a professional setup?

 

Or are there any inherent possible Instabilities when using a contact frame regarding the lack of pressure the Intel ILM does?

 

Also, why does it say stable in green on Igorlab testing for the ILM and stable / retraining on the Contact Frame?

 

 

Doesn't Ram always retrain when put into a system?