My problem with Nvidia

[Adam1984]

Apologies in advance if this has already been said...

 

Given the ridiculous prices of gpus over the last few years, and most of that goes on nvidia.. you would think they would cut gamers some slack.

 

But they dont, and I understand they have to make money, its 100% a business, I get it.

 

However, the real problem for me is things like frame generation. They could easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus... but they didnt. Why? Because they want to sell the 40 series gpu's, which have dissapointed, so the real performance upgrade comes from frame generation.

 

But everyone can probably see this, so the reason I posted this is....

 

AMD FSR 3 frame Generation will be not only compatible with Nvidia GPUs too, but 20 and 30 series cards.

 

So AMD are about to do more for my nvidia GPU than Nvidia have ever done, for FREE. 

 

Ok so in reality it wont be perfect, currently no support for VRR whilst using frame generation, but that will happen guaranteed.

 

Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more.

[venomtail]

They won't. They've no need to and the people only they respond to don't want NVIDIA to. 

 

NVIDIA's 900 series and onwards marketing was SS+ tier and is still paying dividends for people's preference. Marketing so often repeated that people now think it's fact.

 

But just like politics, we deserve what we sow. If we vote for stupid people in power then don't be surprised we're worse off. Same goes here. Vote with your wallets people and its seems like the people are still happy with these GPU prices as well as actions by NVIDIA.

[podkall]

10 minutes ago, Adam1984 said:

Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more.

however, they have no reason to do so,

 

for them their ways are comparable basically to an overflowing sink of cash, why should they stop the sink from overflowing with money?

[Yannic5]

Nvidias main business is in the Datacenter so they dont really care about gamers who buy a 300-1000$ GPU when they can sell one H100 for 34.000$

 

Its sad but thats the world we live in

[Adam1984]

8 minutes ago, podkall said:

however, they have no reason to do so,

 

for them their ways are comparable basically to an overflowing sink of cash, why should they stop the sink from overflowing with money?

Absolutely, and I completely get that, but thats exactly my point, its an abuse of that financial comfort and power. Whereas AMD also have a lot of money and industry clout, but they allow their technology to be used by nvidia users, freesync too which is a huge one. Ive never had an AMD gpu but they might end up getting my money next time

[PDifolco]

23 minutes ago, Adam1984 said:

Apologies in advance if this has already been said...

 

Given the ridiculous prices of gpus over the last few years, and most of that goes on nvidia.. you would think they would cut gamers some slack.

 

But they dont, and I understand they have to make money, its 100% a business, I get it.

 

However, the real problem for me is things like frame generation. They could easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus... but they didnt. Why? Because they want to sell the 40 series gpu's, which have dissapointed, so the real performance upgrade comes from frame generation.

 

But everyone can probably see this, so the reason I posted this is....

 

AMD FSR 3 frame Generation will be not only compatible with Nvidia GPUs too, but 20 and 30 series cards.

 

So AMD are about to do more for my nvidia GPU than Nvidia have ever done, for FREE. 

 

Ok so in reality it wont be perfect, currently no support for VRR whilst using frame generation, but that will happen guaranteed.

 

Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more.

They won't, and maybe they'll become even worse, as gaming is becoming a side business for them, and way less profitable than AI stuff

They'll still do hi end cards to show their technological advance to the masses, then some lower tier crap for people that gobbled their marketing and want the brand, but they won't give a sh#t about their gaming customers anyway

 

[Dedayog]

21 hours ago, Adam1984 said:

Apologies in advance if this has already been said...

 

Given the ridiculous prices of gpus over the last few years, and most of that goes on nvidia.. you would think they would cut gamers some slack.

 

But they dont, and I understand they have to make money, its 100% a business, I get it.

 

However, the real problem for me is things like frame generation. They could easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus... but they didnt. Why? Because they want to sell the 40 series gpu's, which have dissapointed, so the real performance upgrade comes from frame generation.

 

But everyone can probably see this, so the reason I posted this is....

 

AMD FSR 3 frame Generation will be not only compatible with Nvidia GPUs too, but 20 and 30 series cards.

 

So AMD are about to do more for my nvidia GPU than Nvidia have ever done, for FREE. 

 

Ok so in reality it wont be perfect, currently no support for VRR whilst using frame generation, but that will happen guaranteed.

 

Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more.

"Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more."

 

Yet which two companies make as shitload of money for their investors?

 

I'll give you two guesses.  Take your time.

 

Also:

 

"But they dont, and I understand they have to make money, its 100% a business, I get it."

 

Do you get it or do you not get it?  Because you answer your question even before answering it, but still ask it and rant about it.

 

So I take it that you don't truly understand business, investors, returns, economics or anything related. 

 

Sure you WANT them to be nicer and give money away.  Me too.  Not going to happen tho.

[Adam1984]

 

36 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

"Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more."

 

Yet which two companies make as shitload of money for their investors?

 

I'll give you two guesses.  Take your time.

 

Also:

 

"But they dont, and I understand they have to make money, its 100% a business, I get it."

 

Do you get it or do you not get it?  Because you answer your question even before answering it, but still ask it and rant about it.

 

So I take it that you don't truly understand business, investors, returns, economics or anything related.  What year of school are you in, maybe they cover it later?

 

Sure you WANT them to be nicer and give money away.  Me too.  Not going to happen tho.

Wow how rude, this is just an internet forum, calm down a little. So what if I answered my own question?? Who cares. I dont know what you are so angry about but its not me

[porina]

1 hour ago, Adam1984 said:

However, the real problem for me is things like frame generation. They could easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus... but they didnt. Why? Because they want to sell the 40 series gpu's, which have dissapointed, so the real performance upgrade comes from frame generation.

There is a hardware difference between 40 and earlier RTX GPUs. On 40 they beefed up the optical flow processing which is part of what they use to implement frame generation. The optical flow processing on older series is lower performance. It may be ok for non-realtime processing, but it isn't gaming grade.

 

1 hour ago, Adam1984 said:

AMD FSR 3 frame Generation will be not only compatible with Nvidia GPUs too, but 20 and 30 series cards.

 

So AMD are about to do more for my nvidia GPU than Nvidia have ever done, for FREE. 

I'm waiting for reputable sites like Digital Foundry to do a detailed test on how FSR 3 really performs vs DLSS3. If it is anything like FSR 2 vs DLSS 2, then it may work "ok" but objectively not as good as nvidia's solution.

 

FSR 3 still comes with its hardware limitations and requirements. AMD recommend RDNA2 and newer, although it functions on RDNA1. Likewise on NV side, AMD recommend 30 series, although it functions on 20 series. To be worth using it has to work well.

[Poinkachu]

6 minutes ago, porina said:

I'm waiting for reputable sites like Digital Foundry to do a detailed test on how FSR 3 really performs vs DLSS3. If it is anything like FSR 2 vs DLSS 2, then it may work "ok" but objectively not as good as nvidia's solution.

 

FSR 3 still comes with its hardware limitations and requirements. AMD recommend RDNA2 and newer, although it functions on RDNA1. Likewise on NV side, AMD recommend 30 series, although it functions on 20 series. To be worth using it has to work well.

Well, for now there's HwU ?

 

[Lurick]

2 hours ago, Angusticlavii said:

Nvidias main business is in the Datacenter so they dont really care about gamers who buy a 300-1000$ GPU when they can sell one H100 for 34.000$

 

Its sad but thats the world we live in

Yah how sad that they know their customers and can sell things companies with money need

How DARE they grow the business!!!

[ItTakes2ToMango]

You don't have a problem with Nvidia, you have a problem with a shareholder based market

[porina]

1 hour ago, Poinkachu said:

Well, for now there's HwU ?

I'd tolerate them to do basic benchmarking but they don't have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to anything beyond that.

[porina]

Checking it out now.

[Mark Kaine]

19 hours ago, Adam1984 said:

Apologies in advance if this has already been said...

 

Given the ridiculous prices of gpus over the last few years, and most of that goes on nvidia.. you would think they would cut gamers some slack.

 

But they dont, and I understand they have to make money, its 100% a business, I get it.

 

However, the real problem for me is things like frame generation. They could easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus... but they didnt. Why? Because they want to sell the 40 series gpu's, which have dissapointed, so the real performance upgrade comes from frame generation.

 

But everyone can probably see this, so the reason I posted this is....

 

AMD FSR 3 frame Generation will be not only compatible with Nvidia GPUs too, but 20 and 30 series cards.

 

So AMD are about to do more for my nvidia GPU than Nvidia have ever done, for FREE. 

 

Ok so in reality it wont be perfect, currently no support for VRR whilst using frame generation, but that will happen guaranteed.

 

Overall, Nvidia needs to stop being so corporate, and apple like and start to value their customers more.

yeah, but amd has a ridiculously small market share, they need to do "something" trying to stay relevant. nvidia doesn't.  they could stop selling gamer gpus altogether and would probably be fine - and amd couldn't even fulfill the demand, even if they wanted (no production capacity lol)

 

 

On the contrary,  you should blame amd for even making consumer gpus, if that wasn't the case nvidia would instantly have to deal with anti monopoly laws around the world and probably be forced to sell at more reasonable prices...

 

imo amd only makes gpus to help keep nvidia afloat, conspiracy theory?  Maybe, but did you know the ceos of amd and nvidia are closely related? "coincidence"???

 

i dont believe in coincidents personally,  but you're free to do so of course... 

[Mark Kaine]

16 hours ago, ItTakes2ToMango said:

You don't have a problem with Nvidia, you have a problem with a shareholder based market

also i hate upscaling, and buzzwords, leave me alone with this low quality gimmick! xD

 

Spoiler

actually im using fsr 25% in ow, but only because its the default and i don't *really* see a difference to no fsr and it helps my pc stay more silent...  but IF i had the choice i would run without it and HDR on, HDR looks absolutely stunning in OW, but sadly i can't, because windows refuses to switch to none HDR when on desktop automatically... too bothersome... BUT it does look really awesome ingame! 

 

16 hours ago, porina said:

I'd tolerate them to do basic benchmarking but they don't have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to anything beyond that.

is hwu (uwu?) hardware unboxed?  The most biased "reviewer" ever?  people really still watch that? i guess everything to justify their baseless "brand loyalty" huh...

 

 

 

 

[Adam1984]

5 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah, but amd has a ridiculously small market share, they need to do "something" trying to stay relevant. nvidia doesn't.  they could stop selling gamer gpus altogether and would probably be fine - and amd couldn't even fulfill the demand, even if they wanted (no production capacity lol)

 

 

On the contrary,  you should blame amd for even making consumer gpus, if that wasn't the case nvidia would instantly have to deal with anti monopoly laws around the world and probably be forced to sell at more reasonable prices...

 

imo amd only makes gpus to help keep nvidia afloat, conspiracy theory?  Maybe, but did you know the ceos of amd and nvidia are closely related? "coincidence"???

 

i dont believe in coincidents personally,  but you're free to do so of course... 

Interesting, I did not know that. For me it boils down to something very simple, human decency. Clearly nvidia do not care as they are making crazy money, and as people have said, the gpu market isnt their primary interest now. So I think a very simple but good point to make is, so give people more then, just out of decency, nothing else, just as decent human beings. We pay way too much for gpus now, so just give is more performance simply with a firmware update allowing frame generation on all rtx gpus. Its so easy, so uncomplicated. The thing is, as everyone keeps saying, they dont have to.... and they wont.... it really isnt about that, or about being brutally honest about how coprorations work... its just basic, in a better world they would, therefore its better. Im against the capitalism today, this issue isnt even one that bothers me, my gpu performance is fine. Its just a logical thought, and an idea for how the world could be better for all, not just the big tech companies. Sadly it isnt reality, I am in no way ignorant to this fact, but when something is possible, never stop hoping or challenging

[Rocketdog2112]

16 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

 

 

 

On the contrary,  you should blame amd for even making consumer gpus, if that wasn't the case nvidia would instantly have to deal with anti monopoly laws around the world and probably be forced to sell at more reasonable prices...

 

When there is basically only two gpu manufacturers throughout the world, and one closes up shop (not due to buyout or corporate take over) ... how does any anti monopoly laws apply? 

 

Yes, Nvidia would be the only manufacturer of gpu's, but i doubt seriously it would run a foul of any anti monopoly laws because AMD defaulted on their own. 

 

[Mark Kaine]

On 10/7/2023 at 2:32 PM, Adam1984 said:

Interesting, I did not know that. For me it boils down to something very simple, human decency. Clearly nvidia do not care as they are making crazy money, and as people have said, the gpu market isnt their primary interest now. So I think a very simple but good point to make is, so give people more then, just out of decency, nothing else, just as decent human beings. We pay way too much for gpus now, so just give is more performance simply with a firmware update allowing frame generation on all rtx gpus. Its so easy, so uncomplicated. The thing is, as everyone keeps saying, they dont have to.... and they wont.... it really isnt about that, or about being brutally honest about how coprorations work... its just basic, in a better world they would, therefore its better. Im against the capitalism today, this issue isnt even one that bothers me, my gpu performance is fine. Its just a logical thought, and an idea for how the world could be better for all, not just the big tech companies. Sadly it isnt reality, I am in no way ignorant to this fact, but when something is possible, never stop hoping or challenging

yeah, that is true, i guess.

 

its just that these companies coexist just fine, even benefit ftom each other (don't forget intel either) 

as long no one investigates in the obvious market manipulations they'll keep making business as usual, there's no decency here. 

 

 

 

On 10/8/2023 at 2:20 AM, Rocketdog2112 said:

Yes, Nvidia would be the only manufacturer of gpu's, but i doubt seriously it would run a foul of any anti monopoly laws because AMD defaulted on their own. 

don't forget intel, just because they make mostly igpus doesn't mean they aren't in the market.

 

so while that technically isnt a monopoly,  there are obviously laws against market manipulation and both surviving companies would face more scrutiny most likely...

 

on the other hand nobody seems to really care, because this is ongoing since 2 decades now.

 

[Warioku]

Why would they change when they have a near-monopoly on the GPU market and are essentially printing money?

[Billy Flores]

Your remark about frame generation compatibility is also worth noting. Companies often make judgements about software and hardware compatibility based on different criteria, including marketing objectives. The competitive landscape in the tech business can influence these choices.

[LAwLz]

On 10/6/2023 at 1:22 PM, Adam1984 said:

Given the ridiculous prices of gpus over the last few years, and most of that goes on nvidia.. you would think they would cut gamers some slack.

Yeah, because it truly is gamers who need to get some slack right now. We poor gamers don't have it easy, because the price of graphics cards has increased so much. If anyone deserves some slack, it's us.

 

 

 

On 10/6/2023 at 1:22 PM, Adam1984 said:

However, the real problem for me is things like frame generation. They could easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus... but they didnt. Why? Because they want to sell the 40 series gpu's, which have dissapointed, so the real performance upgrade comes from frame generation.

I thought the 40 series seemed to have a pretty decent performance uplift. It's certainly not all from the frame-generating stuff.

Also, do you have any source that Nvidia could "easily have made that compatible with 20 and 30 series gpus"? A while ago I read some interviews and Q&As with Bryan Catanzaro, the VP of applied deep learning research at Nvidia and he shed some light on the situation.

 

He said that as DLSS3 is built today, it could run on older generations of graphics cards but it wouldn't work well, thus defeating the whole purpose. DLSS3 relies on the Optical Flow Accelerators (OFA) on the graphics card to work, and those got a massive uplift in the 40 series. DLSS3 running on the 40 series cards already struggles a bit and will introduce some latency (hence why Nvidia also bundles it with Nvidia Reflex).

 

So while Nvidia could port it to older generations like the 20 and 30 series, it would not result in higher FPS but rather worse FPS, more uneven frame rates, and higher latency, because the OFA couldn't keep up.

 

I will choose to believe this explanation because they did backport other features to earlier generations like RTX voice and ray reconstruction.

 

 

 

On 10/6/2023 at 1:22 PM, Adam1984 said:

AMD FSR 3 frame Generation will be not only compatible with Nvidia GPUs too, but 20 and 30 series cards.

 

So AMD are about to do more for my nvidia GPU than Nvidia have ever done, for FREE. 

Yes, it's true that FSR 3 is compatible with Nvidia GPUs... But you have looked into FSR 3?

It's easy to look at some binary checklist like where it just says "generates frames" and "works on Nvidia GPUs". You have to also look at how well something works, and for that I think Hardware Unboxed made a good video. Here is a quote from the video:

 

Quote

So overall I ahven't been very impressed with what I've seen from AMD's FSR 3 technology so far in its two launch titles. To me this feature seems rushed, incomplete and not fully ready for prime time. There are too many incompatibilities and configuration issues which stands out badly compared to Nvidia's DLSS 3 technology, itself a feature with issues.

The resulting FSR 3 frame generation experience is difficult to recommend outside a few niche use cases. 

-snip-

When we have DLSS 3 generation that, to use an Nvidia:ism "it just works" with features like VRR, going backwards on compatibility with FSR 3 really stands out.

 

The video also brings up limitations AMD has on older graphics cards, like Anti-Lag+ which only works on the RX 7000 series (not 6000 or older).

 

 

It is possible that some of these issues (or all of them?) might be fixed in the future, but I think it is misleading to paint this picture of FSR 3 being equal to DLSS3 and therefore AMD are doing a better job than Nvidia with frame generation. 

 

 

It seems to me like Nvidia is careful and wants to deliver a really good and smooth experience. If they don't think something will work well then they don't even give users the choice to try it.

AMD on the other hand seems to do the exact opposite and just lets everyone try it out. The end result is that people get really inconsistent experiences.

 

I think there are merits to both approaches, but I wouldn't really say either one is better or worse than the other.