Framework's ToC are breaching European Union Geoblocking laws.

[caniballshilabuff]

Hey,

 

I'm asking here because my question are getting banned on r/framework. Framework doesn't allow you to ship to all EU countries. That is fine, but they actively penilize users that try to buy laptop in supported country and take it back home into unsupported country.

 

My case is that I lived Germany, bought framework laptop and then moved to an unsupported country few months later. My laptop broke and Framework voided my warranty because I traveled with the Framework laptop outside of Germany.

 

I lived in Germany, I wasn't home when the parcel was supposed to arrive so I ship forwarded (that's what I always do when I'm not home). And Framework is denying my warranty claim because I used ship forwarding when ordering my laptop.

 

And it's not that they don't want to pay for shipping. They rejected to send me replacement to my old German address (my old roommate still lives there). They just outright ignore my emails or reply with different version of "you broke ToC, we won't respond to your request".

 

I asked ECC, and all of them told me that this is not legal and that it's some BS, but since I don't have contract with EU based entity they can't help (these laws apply even for american companies, just ECC is supposed to watch only EU based companies). They said that some German authorities could help, I reached out to them for help.

 

After the reading the full framework ship forwarding page they even say that "hand-carrying laptop into unsupported country" is enough to get your warranty voided. Which is insane especially in europe where people cross borders very frequently.

 

I like framework, but this is shitty and illegal practice. For americans: imagine if they voided your warranty if you traveled to a different state on vacation.

 

What can I do to get my warranty accepted (as required by European/German law)?

 

EDIT: originally I wanted to make this complain sound more insane so I didn't tell the full truth. That was not good idea, sorry. I corrected the story to contain all information. I left all old text in place, but crossed out.

Edited September 28, 2023 by caniballshilabuff
Removing untruthful information and adding more context.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

2 minutes ago, caniballshilabuff said:

For americans: imagine if they voided your warranty if you traveled to a different state on vacation.

 

while you do have a point with this being bullshit, this is a a false equivalency, given that the relationship between states and EU countries are very different.

[TylerD321]

3 hours ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

while you do have a point with this being bullshit, this is a a false equivalency, given that the relationship between states and EU countries are very different.

While bullshit, they do still have a point. You can drive through several countries in the EU faster than you can drive across the state of Texas.

Edited September 25, 2023 by TylerD321
lies

[IkeaGnome]

8 minutes ago, caniballshilabuff said:

For americans: imagine if they voided your warranty if you traveled to a different state on vacation.

No, this would be like buying something in the States, breaking it or trying to order warranty parts while your on vacation in Canada or Mexico. 99.9% of companies would want it shipped to them from USA, where you bought it, or would ship the parts to USA, where you bought it, or tell you to try again when you're back in the country. 

Different states =! different countries.

1 minute ago, TylerD321 said:

While bullshit, they do still have a point. You can drive through several countries in the EU faster than you can drive across the state of Texas.

Import laws among other things also don't change state by state like they do country by country. 

[TylerD321]

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Import laws among other things also don't change state by state like they do country by country. 

I understand, this is why I said "while still bullshit." You can't base your ToS on distance rather than country due to localized laws. But I also understand the frustration of the fact that they are physically located objectively closer to their original location than a lot of USA to USA locations. It is strange though that they declined to send the parts to the original country/address that their former roommate still lives in - not sure I can find a realistic justification for that.

Edited September 25, 2023 by TylerD321
lies

[IkeaGnome]

3 minutes ago, TylerD321 said:

You can't base your ToS on distance rather than country due to localized laws.

What does distance have to do with this? For what ever reason, Framework has said they don't support certain countries. 

If you buy a MSI, Asus or Gigabyte graphics card in the USA and export it to a different country so you can use it at home they make you ship it back to USA to have it warrantied. They won't cover shipping to and from USA. That's on you. 

4 minutes ago, TylerD321 said:

not sure I can find a realistic justification for that

Their roommate doesn't have an open RMA ticket with Framework. OP does. 

 

I buy a MSI laptop in USA. I move to Mexico. You were my roommate in USA. I try to warranty it from Mexico. MSI will tell me they will only warranty it from the originating country(USA). I say that's okay. Just send my old roommate the part. You've not got a contract with MSI, MSI doesn't know who you are or for sure that you were my old roommate. They're also going to say no. This isn't just a Framework thing.

[TylerD321]

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

If you buy a MSI, Asus or Gigabyte graphics card in the USA and export it to a different country so you can use it at home they make you ship it back to USA to have it warrantied. They won't cover shipping to and from USA. That's on you. 

I was under the impression that they wouldn't allow OP to pay for shipping to and from for the RMA. If they allow the RMA on the stipulation that you have to pay for shipping that is perfectly fair.

 

3 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

I buy a MSI laptop in USA. I move to Mexico. You were my roommate in USA. I try to warranty it from Mexico. MSI will tell me they will only warranty it from the originating country(USA). I say that's okay. Just send my old roommate the part. You've not got a contract with MSI, MSI doesn't know who you are or for sure that you were my old roommate. They're also going to say no. This isn't just a Framework thing.

Why would you inform the company that you are sending it to your roommate? Just give them the address and act like you live there if you have to. They can even sign for a package for you under your name as that is not forgery if you give them permission.

Edited September 25, 2023 by TylerD321
lies

[Razercake]

48 minutes ago, caniballshilabuff said:

I asked ECC, and all of them told me that this is not legal and that it's some BS, but since I don't have contract with EU based entity they can't help (these laws apply even for american companies, just ECC is supposed to watch only EU based companies).

You say they are breaching Geoblocking laws, but a quick Google search implies they aren't even required to follow them.

 

"It applies to sales activities within the 27 EU member states, as well as Norway, Iceland, and Liechtenstein. Web shops that are not based in one of the aforementioned countries are not obligated to comply with the Geo-blocking Regulation." - Source

 

I've heard Framework state multiple times they don't have an EU-based entity, which is also a big reason why expanding to more countries isn't as simple as people might think. is their webshop based in Germany? I'm not sure what is needed to fulfill that criteria, but if none of the webshops are based in those countries. then as stated above these regulations do not apply, at least that is my understanding. (I could be very wrong here, feel free to correct me) judging from the situation described, it sounds like you are a false positive. plenty of people try to get around the available countries for Framework & they've had a lot of issues with various types of freight forwarding to unsupported countries. so they've gotten very strict on this, which will inevitably result in situations like this.

 

I hope this issue gets resolved, the warranty should be honored. I just don't know if they are breaking the laws that you are accusing them of breaking.

[Razercake]

Went back to the Reddit post that brought me here & I must say your credibility just sank dramatically for me. Didn't notice you had the same username as on Reddit & on that post, you are speaking as if you haven't actually ordered a framework yet, talking about yourself??? as a different person, so some clarification would be great.  @caniballshilabuff

 

- source for both screenshots

[Morpheus636]

17 minutes ago, Razercake said:

is their webshop based in Germany?

They only exist as a legal entity in the USA, so no.

 

OP also posted to r/framework (from a reddit account with the same username) phrasing their post in the third-person as if they weren't the OP of this thread, which they linked to. In multiple places in their Reddit post history, including the removed post in r/framework they referred to, they admitted to using a freight forwarding service (which is not what they described here) and being "based in" a country that Framework can't legally do business in -- warranty or not.

As I said on my comment on r/framework, As a US-based company with no EU entity, Framework legally cannot ship to any countries that they are not approved to do business in, warranty replacement or not. EU open borders do not apply to non-EU companies -- they have to get approval from every country individually. This is not like if a company refused warranty service for traveling between US states -- US states are constitutionally required to allow inter-state commerce regardless of the goods origin. No such requirement exists for EU countries.

Disclaimer: I'm one of the volunteer mods on r/framework, but I am not a Framework employee.

[IkeaGnome]

2 hours ago, TylerD321 said:

I was under the impression that they wouldn't allow OP to pay for shipping to and from for the RMA. If they allow the RMA on the stipulation that you have to pay for shipping that is perfectly fair.

Framework allows you to warranty your laptop in a country they can service. Depending on how you read things, Framework also hasn't voided the warranty in general for OP, just in this case since they're not in a supported country. 

 

If their warranty in general is just null and void now because they tried from a different country, I'd love @caniballshilabuff to post proof of this. 

[Systema Encephale]

52 minutes ago, Morpheus636 said:

As a US-based company with no EU entity, Framework legally cannot ship to any countries that they are not approved to do business in

Coming here from that Reddit thread, I have to agree the OP seems rather dubious. Nevertheless, I have to wonder about this quote. I have been living in different EU countries and I have been internet shopping overseas for >20 years, from giant corporations to mom and pop stores and anything inbetween. Never has anyone had a problem selling to any particular EU country. Did they all have approvals (and Framework does not?), or are they operating illegally? What is the legal issue here?

[TylerD321]

16 minutes ago, IkeaGnome said:

Framework allows you to warranty your laptop in a country they can service. Depending on how you read things, Framework also hasn't voided the warranty in general for OP, just in this case since they're not in a supported country. 

 

If their warranty in general is just null and void now because they tried from a different country, I'd love @caniballshilabuff to post proof of this. 

With this perspective I can agree, it is hard to take fact from text - especially with how it is written. I would have to agree that it seems as though OP is doing some shady stuff.

[Morpheus636]

44 minutes ago, Systema Encephale said:

Coming here from that Reddit thread, I have to agree the OP seems rather dubious. Nevertheless, I have to wonder about this quote. I have been living in different EU countries and I have been internet shopping overseas for >20 years, from giant corporations to mom and pop stores and anything inbetween. Never has anyone had a problem selling to any particular EU country. Did they all have approvals (and Framework does not?), or are they operating illegally? What is the legal issue here?

Generally, the big companies have approvals and the little companies are either EU-based or are operating illegally. I’m not an expert, but it’s also possible that retailers that are selling products manufactured by someone else are subject to different requirements than manufacturers selling their own products. 
 

There are other factors (logistics, reverse-logistics, loss prevention, record keeping, etc) that play a role, which Framework takes seriously. 

[caniballshilabuff]

Sorry for that sketchy reddit post. I just wanted to share this thread and I hoped I'd confuse the moderators enough so they would outright block my posts (as they did with the previous ones).

 

The original post here was a bit ranty, so I edited it to contain full information and crossed some parts that were untruthful.

 

So even though I'm double angry because I basically forwarded inside Germany (and ToC forbid only cross-country forwarding). Even forwarding inside EU cannot be disallowed without a good reason. And Framework didn't provide any reason for this.

 

Also there are a lot more testimonials in this thread about why and how is Framework policy not legal:

 

https://reddit.com/r/framework/s/OjdEni4P5O

 

Sorry suboptimal propagation on reddit. But I believe Frameworks approach is not OK.

[caniballshilabuff]

Also forgot to mention that ECC told me they can't help me directly because they solve only EU business vs EU customer disputes, they are certain that Framework's policies are not OK. And they directed me at different German and US authorities which I have contacted (but that will take few weeks/months, these things are slow).

 

So It seems I'll be able to solve it eventually and I'll get my refund (a year later, hopefully). By posting online I want Framework to drop these restrictions in EU so others won't need to go through this BS too.

[caniballshilabuff]

Also to address some concerns raised here. I'm willing to pay for shipping from/to Germany. I'm even willing to send framework any faulty parts from German address or recieve any new part on a German address.

 

And I as expected, since I bought it in Germany I want them to comply with German laws (not my home country ones).

[Morpheus636]

On 9/25/2023 at 2:37 PM, caniballshilabuff said:

my warranty is voided and they can't help me in any way

If you were continually being aggressive or abusive with support over this, like you have been on Reddit, or started making legal threats, it’s likely that they blocked you for that reason. Framework takes their team’s mental health seriously and does not tolerate that kind of behavior. 
 

The EU laws you’re referring to do not apply to non-eu companies. The ECC themselves say so on this page. https://www.eccnet.eu/consumer-rights/what-are-my-consumer-rights/shopping-rights/online-shopping-rights/geo-blocking. It sounds like someone gave you bad info. Even beyond the customer experience issues that would cause, what you are trying to get Framework to do is illegal, as I already explained multiple times. 

 

All that said, if you’re willing to engage constructively and provide a valid address in a supported country, it's possible something can be arranged (unless there’s something else behind the scenes that I’m not privy to).  Send you order number via the r/framework ModMail and I’ll make sure it gets to the right place. 

[Morpheus636]

36 minutes ago, caniballshilabuff said:

Sorry again for ranty post and suboptimal propagation on reddit. But I really believe Framewoks approach is not OK.

Please call it what it is. You LIED -- multiple times -- in an attempt to raise pitchforks and get people angry and to bypass our community rules.

[caniballshilabuff]

Thanks, I expected Framework's legal team to have this in order so I was confused by the fact the Framework would not adhere to EU policies, that's why I was surprised by the response from ECC and why I decided to share.

 

I'll send you details on Reddit. And I promise this is my last ranty post. And if I do make another one it is will be only to share facts in constructive manner.

 

And I'm really sorry if I caused anyone at Framework discomfort. I didn't mean to harm anyone I was just confused/angry because of the lack of communication.

 

Thanks for what you are doing (like Framework's mission and all that).

[caniballshilabuff]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:15 PM, Morpheus636 said:

Please call it what it is. You LIED -- multiple times -- in an attempt to raise pitchforks and get people angry and to bypass our community rules.

I read all my posts again and the only post I lied in is this one (which I edited to contain truthful information). Sorry I was frustrated with my posts getting blocked on reddit and I wanted to raise my concerns, which is not an excuse.

 

Sorry if I caused harm or discomfort to anyone.

[TylerD321]

23 minutes ago, caniballshilabuff said:

Yes I lied bunch of times and it was a learning experience and now I know I should have done it differently and I'm sorry for that.

 

I wanted to point out that the text framework support sent me says that:

 

"If Framework products are obtained through any means with the intention of either shipping or hand-carrying said products into unsupported countries/regions .... waranty voided"

 

The full thing can be found on Framework website.

 

I should have asked if I read it correctly that hand-carrying products into unsupported countries is reason for warranty voiding (ie. going in a vacation with my laptop). Instead I presented myself as someone who got warranty voided for this, which was not the best way to go about it. Which I realize now holds a very different information.

 

I realize that my ranting here and on Reddit was not great and I should not have done that. Again sorry for that.

You really do not deserve frameworks help now, and if they do help you out you should be extremely appreciative.

[sub68]

4 hours ago, caniballshilabuff said:

I like framework, but this is shitty and illegal practice. For americans: imagine if they voided your warranty if you traveled to a different state on vacation.

Cool thing about US import laws aren't state by state its by the entirety of the country.

 

I know a US based firearms accessories manufacture that is kinda of small they can't fully ship the entirety of the EU.

Here is the thing if your out of a country and ask to have it shipped to a different place it looks shady as frick to what ever company it is.

So I own a preowned camera I CANNOT register it here in the US its from Japan, thats exactly how even a country that is around the corner sees it to framework.

[blattodephobia]

Oh brother, the r/framework mod flame wars have carried over to the LTT forums. Glad to see no one is locking the thread or deleting comments though. So let's try to have a civil discussion this time without whipping out the mod hammer for uttering the forbidden words or implying the usage of freight forwarding .

 

OP complains that the warranty shouldn't be voided based on the usage of a freight forwarder. Framework disagrees. As shady as pretending to be someone else on Reddit is, there are a few facts:

1. OP has contacted the ECC and they agree the warranty shouldn't be voided just because a freight forwarder was used.
2. Framework is breaching the geo-blocking directive.

When I say "facts" read: I trust OP, and I can prove the geo-blocking claim - both within reason.

 

First off, I reached out to an EC (European Commission) contact a month ago (explanation to those unfamiliar: it's the executive branch of the EU; the European Consumer Centre is an entity working under the EC). The reason was that I couldn't even order a laptop, because my pre-orders got canceled. The justification I got via a non-automated support email was that I attempted to use a freight forwarder. A second attempt at a pre-order resulted in a more lengthy exchange that ended with the familiar claim about Framework's warranty - that they cannot legally provide one outside of the country they ship to, that it's only valid with a permanent address, etc.

 

I made sure to include Framework's reasoning as stated by support:

Quote

We only allow shipping to permanent residences or business addresses with a valid individual associated as we then assign the warranty to the individual in the supported country. We do not officially support any countries/regions other than the United States...

This is what the response was about the geographical availabilty of a warranty:

Quote

 

Under EU rules, a trader must repair, replace, reduce the price or give you a refund if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised.

You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost, regardless of whether you bought your goods online, in a shop or by mail order.

This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right, however national rules in your country may give you extra protection. You can usually only ask for a partial or full refund when it is not possible to repair or replace the goods.

Please note that you might not be entitled to a refund if the problem is minor, such as a scratch on a CD case.

The 2-year guarantee period starts as soon as you receive your goods. If your goods break within these 2 years, the trader always has to provide a solution for you. In some EU countries you also have the right to request a remedy from the manufacturer.

Under new rules that started applying on 1 January 2022:

• If your product breaks within the first year, it is assumed that the problem existed when you received the goods, unless the trader can prove otherwise. Therefore, you have the right to a repair or replacement free of charge, or if this turns out to be too difficult or costly, you may be offered a price reduction or your money back.
• If your product breaks after the first year, you still have the right to have your goods repaired or replaced for free or, at least, to a price reduction or your money back. However, you may need to prove that the problem existed when you received the goods.

You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost, regardless of whether you bought your goods online, in a shop or by mail order.

This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right, however national rules in your country may give you extra protection.

Shops or manufacturers will often offer you an additional commercial guarantee (also called a "warranty"), either included in the price of the product or at an extra cost.

This can give you better protection but can never replace or reduce the minimum 2-year guarantee, which you always have under EU rules.

 

Again, see how how the quote from the EC's email states three times, that said guarantee cannot be reduced by any means from the get-go, least of all based on residential address. It's literally a right.

 

As far as geo-blocking is concerned, they did explain the bullet points, but they also gave me some more information, specifically whether it's applicable to non-EU based web-shops.

Here's a handy list of European Commission Q&A PDFs in various European languages when the geo-blocking directive was first being drafted.

Of note is this one:

Quote

 

2.1.7. What is the territorial scope of the Regulation?

The Regulation applies to all traders offering their goods or services to consumers in the EU, regardless of whether they are established in the EU or in a non-EU country. Therefore, traders established in non-EU countries that operate in the EU are therefore subject to this Regulation.

 

Here's also what the Bundesnetzagentur, the German government body responsible for enforcing the geo-blocking regulation, has to say on their website:

Quote

EU-Com Notice to steakholders [sic] regarding Brexit and geo-blocking
Since the transitional period ended on 31 December 2020, EU regulations concerning geo-blocking no longer apply for the UK. This means that traders from the UK can block access to their websites for customers from the EU.
However, traders from the UK whose goods and services are intended for the market of a specific EU country must continue to abide by the European Union’s regulations on geo-blocking.

So, in the past, UK merchants had to observe the geo-blocking regulation, because they dealt with UK citizens, which were also EU citizens. Since they already did business with at least those EU citizens, they couldn't geo block the rest. However, ever since Brexit, UK citizens are no longer EU citizens, therefore UK merchants can choose whether to do business only within the UK, or adhere to the geo-blocking regulation if they so much as operate in a single EU Member State.

 

But, what amuses me the most, is what the Bundesnetzagentur has to say about

Quote

What do I need to know about the shipping of goods?
When selling physical goods online, traders are generally free to choose the area where they operate and therefore also the area where they deliver goods. Customers therefore cannot necessarily demand that the seller ship the goods to their home address. However, sellers must facilitate delivery of the goods to a location within their delivery area (eg a location on or near the national border). The customer can then either collect the goods from there or organise collection by a LOGISTICS COMPANY.

Oh Lawd, say it isn't so. The geo-blocking directive specifically allows freight forwarding and counts its prohibition toward the list of offenses. Well, at least that's how they interpret the mention of arranging shipping by "private means" this passage from the directive:

Quote

That could mean that foreign customers will have to pick up the goods in that Member State, or in a different Member State to which the trader delivers, or arrange, by their own private means, the cross-border delivery of the goods. In this situation, in accordance with Directive 2006/112/EC, there is no need to register for VAT in the Member State of the customer.

No, it looks like I mistakenly highlighted a counter-argument for one of Framework's frequent excuses why they can't allow freight forwarding. Or was it the direct shipping of goods? Well anyway, lack of VAT registration is not an excuse. The VAT is paid in the country being shipped to, something that anyone who has used freight forwarding with Amazon will have noticed.

 

It seems like things don't look good for Framework, having to deal with warranties and freight forwarding... wait, what's this? EU directive 2011/83 Article 20:

Quote

 

Article 20: Passing of risk

In contracts where the trader dispatches the goods to the consumer, the risk of loss of or damage to the goods shall pass to the consumer when he or a third party indicated by the consumer and other than the carrier has acquired the physical possession of the goods. However, the risk shall pass to the consumer upon delivery to the carrier if the carrier was commissioned by the consumer to carry the goods and that choice was not offered by the trader, without prejudice to the rights of the consumer against the carrier. 

 

Damn it, and here I thought I could scam Framework by forcing them to allow freight forwarders and submit arbitrary warranty claims... It's almost as if the usage of freight forwarders is a common and regulated practice in the EU, because it makes cross-border purchases significantly easier without discomforting traders or consumers. And all Framework needs to be relieved of physical damage claims is just to prove that the original package was signed for, and that if the customer hadn't had the foresight to pay the forwarder extra for insuring the forwarding of the laptop and to have the the package and/or its contents inspected for damages, and not sign for it in the presence of such, then the customer has no claim for loss or physical damage. Who could've known...

 

Now, @Morpheus636, I've seen the link you posted. But I think it's a mistake by the site maintainers. Because the EU Commission has determined both Google and Valve have been in breach of the geo-blocking directive, both of which are US based. And the decision of the EU Commission (PDF) addresses Valve Corporation, and not their EU representative, Valve GmbH. Though the exact way they have breached the directive is not applicable to Framework, the point I'm trying to make is that it's still applicable to US businesses, as long as they operate in even a single Member State.

 

Anyway, there is one exception that could be applicable to Framework,

Quote

 

Article 4

Access to goods or services

5.   The prohibition set out in paragraph 1 shall not apply in so far as a specific provision laid down in Union law, or in the laws of Member States in accordance with Union law, prevents the trader from selling the goods or providing the services to certain customers or to customers in certain territories.

 

And here we finally reach the one exception quoted by Framework that keeps being brought up, that they can't ship or provide warranty support to countries they don't operate in. Now then, they don't have to ship to other countries, that's what freight forwarders as per the directive are for. But, it seems there is some EU law, or a law in any of the Member States that says... brace yourselves... that it's illegal to provide warranty support to their customers. So the question I think I can only address to @Morpheus636 is, exactly what law is this? What anti-consumer, anti-business law will have Framework charged with criminal activity for providing warranty support, and free of charge at that?! What EU law, or - say - German or Polish law, would Framework breach if a Pole bought something as common as a laptop in Germany, by crossing the border and taking the laptop with them? Please, do quote something exact, cause let me tell you, the EC Direct Contact Centre was at a bit of a loss. And it is entirely possible I may have misquoted the support email.

 

There is one last thing I want to add, particularly in OP's defense, and to the attention of @TylerD321. The reason OP mislead readers and presented themselves as someone else is because on Framework's community forums and subreddit any and all discussion about freight forwarding are banned, even in cases when they probably shouldn't. In the past people used to freight forward Framework laptops all across the world, which is now not allowed per Framework's terms. Then, they just decided to go nuclear, and outright prohibited all discussions on the subject. But every once in a while some European just brings up the topic because it's so common - and, again, regulated - in the EU. In this particular case, OP submitted a post on r/framework. This is a screenshot of the text that got removed:

OP also posted this request a while later. It was locked, because OP asked what community can they ask some questions in, because they are not allowed to ask on r/framework. And despite the mod's reply the question boils down to Who do I turn to if I disagree with a warranty being voided given that I've used a freight forwarder, which is not a request to circumvent Framework's terms of service, but a legitimate consumer question. Framework are actually obliged to point OP in the right direction. Instead, they attempted to prevent them from getting an answer from other customers. I mean, sure, it's Reddit, so technically OP could've turned to support, but there are Framework employees moderating the sub, and Framework's support just disagrees or ghosts those kinds of questions. The correct course of action could've been to have a mod reply, politely repeating their stance, and end that reply with "You can turn to <authority name> for independent arbitration".

 

And when I say "support ghosts those kind of questions", that's from personal experience. When I requested from support - admittedly expressing my frustration relative to other experiences with EU businesses - an explanation what they meant by Framework "assigns the warranty" and needs a residential address for it, and why is that a justification for canceling my pre-order, I got ghosted. And that's when I decided to inquire with the EC, got the information I just put in quotes and so on. And bear in mind, the EC Contact Centre didn't give me a hypothetical scenario when an address is required for warranty, they just said "you're always entitled to a warranty, these are the circumstances when you might not be, and no others". So no addresses, no freight forwarding, nothing.

 

But you can bet I wouldn't have received a reply from the community forums or r/framework, or explained the situation in full - one pre-order was canceled on the basis of using a freight forwarder, and the other was canceled for using a payment method from an "unsupported" country, both of which are against Framework's terms (regardless of their supposed (il)legality). So if I wanted a more thorough explanation that I could provide to the Commission, my posts and threads would've been locked/deleted, because discussion about freight forwarding or breaching Framework's ToS is not allowed.

 

Finally the TL;DR:

1. I believe OP that the warranty should be honored despite using a freight forwarder, because their experience with contacting EU institutions about the legality of it - using freight forwarding, and honoring the warranty via the original shipping address - matches mine.
2. Most of what I've brought up so far as counter arguments for Framework's claim that "[we]'re not in the EU, therefore the laws of the EU Member States we operate in don't apply to us" was given to me in replies to an inquiry with an EC contact center. So as much as I'm coming across as a Karen... it is what it is.
3. I think @Morpheus636 might be able to forward this question to the right person at Framework: exactly what law(s) are preventing Framework from using a freight forwarder and/or provide warranty support to EU citizens outside of those EU Member States Framework ships to? And please let the answer be as specific and as legalese-ish as possible, because I do want to bring this to the attention of the relevant authority enforcing the geo-blocking regulation. I hope it doesn't sound too threating, because, let's face it, it's in Framework's interest to tell them they're wrong. Not to mention it's a better course of action to settle the matter instead of throwing quotes from online sources. Bottom line is, the EC will either send Framework a response ordering them to stop the geo-blocking practice, rendering all legal concerns void, or tell me why I'm wrong. And if there's a fine, Framework will be able to recover from it in no time after opening pre-orders EU-wide. The Commission doesn't issue fines with the goal to bankrupt businesses.

 

[Systema Encephale]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:39 AM, blattodephobia said:

exactly what law(s) are preventing Framework from using a freight forwarder and/or provide warranty support to EU citizens outside of those EU Member States Framework ships to?

It would not surprise me if this has a lot to do with language requirements. The EU is a single market, and if Framework can export to one EU member country they can export to all, there is no country-specific authorization required. However, they do have to provide the manuals/instructions in the local language for each county they sell to, and I can imagine that is an expensive hassle for a not so large company making complex electronics that explicitly support being taken apart by the customer. Maybe if they were to officially allow freight forwarding and warranty support in all countries, they would also have to meet these language requirements everywhere.(?)