256GB blu-ray discs

[kuddlesworth9419]

I swear this is just complete BS, i'm seriously consider moving over to somewhere where they have Google Fiber. 

Perhaps but it depends on whether or not the US decides to have tiered internet access. Because if they do it means every other country will. ANd if every country has it i doubt we will be getting 4K YouTUbe or Netflix anytime soon at a reasonable speed download. I doubt the US will be getting fibre either at any large scale. 

[algoat]

The article mentioned and compared itself to the new Sony/Panasonic discs, however, those are archival discs rated to last at least 50 years. If these discs, based on the blu-ray standard, can last that long then it would probably be a more affordable and future proof alternative.

[ItsLinkNotZelda]

With the whole net nertuality thing going on, we may see a comeback of optical media. Average internet speed in my area is not enough for 4K content, but this may alieviate the problem. Let's just hope it won't be very expensive.

[Mooshi]

Too bad disc media is dead and no one cares about them anymore.

 

edit: But with the shape of the internet landscape as of late..we may have to care about them again.

[WanderingFool]

What on earth are you talking about? I had no opinion on whether or not I liked or didn't like what you had to say. I was saying you were posting aggressively and being rude, and that mods have a tendency to dislike it when people do that.

 

On the actual topic, you're clearly ill informed if you believe you can only put USB-related paraphernalia in the rear of a TV, as most TV's nowadays come with side-ports. Neither is it problematic for mass production, but a more compatible platform for such, would be something like SD-cards.

 

You're clearly on an anger-fit, so I'll leave it here, as you seem to be the only one in the thread disagreeing on the subject.

 

I believe you are missing his main point, NAND-Flash is not currently not cost effective compared to discs, and I have to agree with him.

 

The biggest thing is cost, which you seem to have an unreasonable expectation of manufacturing costs.  Like the article says, it is mostly using hardware that already exists so there will be less costs for blu-ray player manufactures than initial blu-ray.  Even if you claim the cost would increase because of newer 256GB disc, you are missing the point that NAND-Flash players would also need to be built (and a new standard would have to be formed, with privacy protections and such...and given the way some of the blu-ray protections work, they would have to revamp the security).  *A note, blu-ray sort of exploits the fact that ROM discs can have data stamped on them that normal burners cannot write to, so it is possible to tell forged discs from non-forged ones*  In general the players cost so much due to the "4k" portion and selling point....so the cost would be just as high for NAND-Flash players as well.

 

So now lets actually talk about the manufacturing cost of discs.  For Blu-Ray from beginning to end you can get the disc+case+inserts for under $2 a disc (that is 50GB).  Actually you can use this site as a guide (http://www.discmakers.com/quoter/default.aspx) 2000 blu-rays cost $3,160 (cheapest option).  They actually have an USB version to...2000 of 1GB sticks costs $9,460 (that is over $4 an USB drive)...and remember they would have to create a propriety NAND-Flash card/stick otherwise you could get people who could just clone the data.

 

You also mentioned durability, but I would argue that NAND-Flash is more vulnerable than many think.  The biggest thing is if you don't watch a movie frequently, you will lose your data.  NAND-Flash is actually susceptible to data loss if it doesn't get recharged.  I point to a dell site for this (I think even Linus mentioned this before, but I can't find a link)

 

http://www.dell.com/downloads/global/products/pvaul/en/Solid-State-Drive-FAQ-us.pdf (Data-loss can happen as early as 3 months for cheaper NAND and 6 months for others.  Although as they say the best case is 10 years...even taking an average case of 5 years, that would mean a lot of my collection would be dead)

 

With Blu-ray's they are susceptible to damage in the long term as well, but blu-ray roms (not to be mistaken to R's and RE's) have a very long lifespan.

 

So I will just make a quick summary.  Blu-ray is still a cheaper one time write storage format, and still the most practical....anything that can support 4k will be expensive, it is unfair to compare a $700 Sony player, when it could be very likely that a player that supported USB movies would cost the same.

 

 

 

To discuss the topic now.  It is nice to see the ongoing development of Blu-Ray, but I have heard this "256 GB" disc kind of promise too many times to get my hopes up.  The problem is it needs to get finalized into the blu-ray format in order to really make it big...but I don't see there being a big enough demand as of now for a 256GB disc to actually have it put into the standard.  (When 4K TV's actually become a mainstream thing, then maybe this push will finally happen)

[Misanthrope]

I think that optical media is no longer aimed at us the consumers, this products and developments are more for long term storage, we all know that by the time 4k is a mainstream standard digital delivery and streaming will be as well: we will not see another generation of optical media getting popular for consumers, it's going to be all digital.

 

Kind of why the FCC thing is a big deal btw.

[Askew]

I think that optical media is no longer aimed at us the consumers, this products and developments are more for long term storage, we all know that by the time 4k is a mainstream standard digital delivery and streaming will be as well: we will not see another generation of optical media getting popular for consumers, it's going to be all digital.

Kind of why the FCC thing is a big deal btw.

I agree that optical media has it's clock ticking for distribution, but physical distribution has a ways to go in my opinion.

I think that the last actual physical method of distribution will be with flash memory, and that may continue into digital only times for quite a while as areas with poor infrastructure are upgraded.

I could see buying a movie with a USB chip inside the box and having it slot into a player, the interface could even be proprietary.

[WanderingFool]

I think that optical media is no longer aimed at us the consumers, this products and developments are more for long term storage, we all know that by the time 4k is a mainstream standard digital delivery and streaming will be as well: we will not see another generation of optical media getting popular for consumers, it's going to be all digital.

 

Kind of why the FCC thing is a big deal btw.

I would actually love to see the day digital downloads becoming a thing for 4k content, but I am not sure that the internet will be ready by the time 4k hits.  Even now I can see the difference between a streamed 1080p and blu-ray format....when you think that some movies are sending a stream at 24 mbps vs Netflix's 7mbps? Even Netflix's 4k content isn't 24mbps yet.  I do hope the day that we can get blu-ray quality streams over the internet comes soon, but really I don't think we are going to get that.  Looking at Canada, I have 400 GB of cap...that means for 4k content (even assuming it is only double so 100GB) I will only be able to watch 4 movies.  The internet in America, Canada, and many other places will have to change in order to the digital movie era to truly beat out physical media's quality. (I will gladly welcome that change though, if it ever happens)

 

I agree that optical media has it's clock ticking for distribution, but physical distribution has a ways to go in my opinion.

I think that the last actual physical method of distribution will be with flash memory, and that may continue into digital only times for quite a while as areas with poor infrastructure are upgraded.

I could see buying a movie with a USB chip inside the box and having it slot into a player, the interface could even be proprietary.

Flash memory has a lot shorter lifespan than Blu-Ray (if it is not plugged in) and costs more to produce (unless you provided your own stick...but then you would be paying an arm and a leg for movies)

[jmaster299]

Finally some people who know what they are talking about. For games and other software, yes I agree disc media is dead. But hundreds of millions of people still purchase blu-ray movies every year. A 256GB blu-ray format will meet the needs of those people for 4K content. Digital streaming and storage of 4K is simply not a viable option otherwise. Internet speeds and service are not consistent, there are data caps to deal with and even with something like a HTPC you would need numerous HDDs with several TB's worth of storage just to hold a fraction of the number of movies that many people own.

My parents fall into that "average consumer" category. They don't play games, but they watch a ton of movies and TV shows, that's their thing. In addition to a disc being the easiest format for them to deal with, they enjoy actually owning the physical media. The shun things like Netflix because they prefer to buy something and own it forever. So, while these discs don't mean anything to gamers, they will be extremely useful in helping to push adoption of the 4K platform. So people don't care about 4K, and that's fine because this will not affect them in any way.

[Misanthrope]

I would actually love to see the day digital downloads becoming a thing for 4k content, but I am not sure that the internet will be ready by the time 4k hits.  Even now I can see the difference between a streamed 1080p and blu-ray format....when you think that some movies are sending a stream at 24 mbps vs Netflix's 7mbps? Even Netflix's 4k content isn't 24mbps yet.  I do hope the day that we can get blu-ray quality streams over the internet comes soon, but really I don't think we are going to get that.  Looking at Canada, I have 400 GB of cap...that means for 4k content (even assuming it is only double so 100GB) I will only be able to watch 4 movies.  The internet in America, Canada, and many other places will have to change in order to the digital movie era to truly beat out physical media's quality. (I will gladly welcome that change though, if it ever happens)

 

Actually that's a rather interesting point: If you think about it only the US and some other "first world" countries aren't ready when it comes to internet infrastructure and I even argue that it's being intentionally kept slow by ISPs to nickle and dime customers. But other more sane places around the world already have more than capable infrastructure for widespread digital only media world. We're already at the point where most consumer electronics, even stand alone tvs, can do content streaming, there's no good reason why those places shouldn't transition over to digital delivery as the main method of distribution and other methods (over the air, satellite, physical media) will be just secondary for people in more rural areas or newly developed without infrastructure yet.

 

Which brings me to my other point, up until now the US is one of the largest if not the largest content creator for entertainment, however seeing how more and more people are moving over to new mediums like youtube and twitch this could change within a reasonable amount of time (say 2 decades or so). That would seriously leave the US in a precarious position: while the rest of the world embraces net neutrality and decent infrastructure, if things keep going like now the US might become the secondary market because of their stubbornness to get with the times and stop favoring ISPs and their nonsense. Might not seem like much but cultural influence goes a long way

[Dylan522p]

They should just give up, and move to USB-sticks or SD-cards.. they're already larger capacity, cheaper to make, easier to sell, easier to use, and smaller etc.

 

Optical is already outdated, no-one wants optical any more.

Optical media is MUCH cheaper and MUCH more durable and MUCH more reliable than the shit NAND put in sd cards and cheaper usb drives.

[ACatWithThumbs]

Perhaps but it depends on whether or not the US decides to have tiered internet access. Because if they do it means every other country will. ANd if every country has it i doubt we will be getting 4K YouTUbe or Netflix anytime soon at a reasonable speed download. I doubt the US will be getting fibre either at any large scale. 

Data caps aren't legal in most European countries so it won't be the same situation in the EU at least.

 

 

Too bad disc media is dead and no one cares about them anymore.

 

edit: But with the shape of the internet landscape as of late..we may have to care about them again.

Optical media is far away from dead.

You can't get Blu Ray quality anywhere online.

Nobody is going to download 50GB 1080p movies and for sure not 250GB 4K movies.

Even google fiber would be way to slow for that.

 

[Mainfold]

Optical media is MUCH cheaper and MUCH more durable and MUCH more reliable than the shit NAND put in sd cards and cheaper usb drives.

 

Ever encountered military-grade nand? It's basically as indestructible as any other computer-component can be.

 

So, it's all relative, if you look at cheapo-nand, sure it sucks, but if you look at high end, there's not even a trace of "bad" nand floating around.

[Dylan522p]

Ever encountered military-grade nand? It's basically as indestructible as any other computer-component can be.

 

So, it's all relative, if you look at cheapo-nand, sure it sucks, but if you look at high end, there's not even a trace of "bad" nand floating around.

Good NAND is expensive as hell. There is no phisical difference between NAND used in militarty grade products and thumb drives, simply the thumbdrives use the crappy parts and enterprise and military stuff use the best.

[martinrox1568]

They should just give up, and move to USB-sticks or SD-cards.. they're already larger capacity, easier to sell, easier to use, and smaller etc.

 

Optical is already outdated, no-one wants optical any more.

and 10x more expensive

[martinrox1568]

Don't like what I have to say? Block me or get lost. I have you blocked now because you are beyond help. So don't waste your breath.

USB is only convenient when sitting in front of a computer. As I've pointed out over and over again, it is not convenient for use with TVs. They are often mounted out of reach in general, and the USB ports are not in convenient locations to begin with. They are also more expensive to produce. While it may be a valid option for distributing something like Windows, it is not a valid format for mass producing millions and millions of movies and TV shows.

I thought I get mad at times but this is just ridiculous. Where's a mod when u need one

[swifty7]

as much as I like the idea of 4k movies, it will be a very tough sell.  1080p is already way beyond enough for most people.

[kuddlesworth9419]

Data caps aren't legal in most European countries so it won't be the same situation in the EU at least.

 

 

Optical media is far away from dead.

You can't get Blu Ray quality anywhere online.

Nobody is going to download 50GB 1080p movies and for sure not 250GB 4K movies.

Even google fiber would be way to slow for that.

 

Fo now at least but who knows what will come.

[ericlee30]

Now this is very interesting, cant wait to see were this leads to.

[pit5000]

not impressed

 

USB 3.0 thumb drives are capable of high capacities in a more convenient form factor that doesn't require a disc drive, it's also really fast and not at risk for scratches...

[jezza39]

COuld be great for archiving large volumes of files, or higher res textures for consoles. I agree with everyone above though, blu-ray for movies is almost dead. No one buys them when you can stream from iTunes or netflix. 

[toughtrasher]

COuld be great for archiving large volumes of files, or higher res textures for consoles. I agree with everyone above though, blu-ray for movies is almost dead. No one buys them when you can stream from iTunes or netflix.

Unless of course, you don't have Netflix or have bad internet connection. Also, buying Blu-Ray and selling the discs are actually pretty cheap.

[jezza39]

Unless of course, you don't have Netflix or have bad internet connection. Also, buying Blu-Ray and selling the discs are actually pretty cheap.

 

I have both those things (no Netflix and a bad connection) as well as owning a PS3 and I will buy DVDs before Blu Rays, they're half the price, have a much more expansive range and I don't notice the quality difference too much when viewing on a TV.

[Nick Paviour]

My question is? if my understanding is correct, it wouldn't be any more difficult for current blu ray players / drives to read the discs? because it can be read by the same laser?

 

So if that is the case, can't manufacturers release firmware / software updates for their current players so they can play 4k content on these discs? 

 

The current generation of consoles claim they can play 4k video via their current HDMI video outputs?

[WanderingFool]

My question is? if my understanding is correct, it wouldn't be any more difficult for current blu ray players / drives to read the discs? because it can be read by the same laser?

 

So if that is the case, can't manufacturers release firmware / software updates for their current players so they can play 4k content on these discs? 

 

The current generation of consoles claim they can play 4k video via their current HDMI video outputs?

If it is anything like some of the other variants of the larger discs, then it uses mostly the old hardware...but usually requires a tweak or two (I believe one a while ago required a something to do with stabilization or something like that).  So an added component of 1 or 2 dollars to make it read would be my guess.

 

 

As to everyone who keeps saying USB and flash memory (ie thumb drives).  Flash cannot work for this sort of stuff (Not even counting the economical problem).  Flash cannot hold data for extended amounts of time, without power, and maintain read integrity on that data.  Store poor quality flash in a box for 4 years and some of the files might get corrupted...even high quality flash will degrade overtime when there is no power.