Can a Moondrop Dawn Pro drive my Hifiman Sundaras

[Idkwhat2putheresowhatever]

Just got a pair of 2018 Hifiman Sundaras to use alongside my Sennheiser HD 560s. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about audio stuff so I thought that the Sundaras having an impedance of only 37 ohms meant that it was pretty easy to drive. Turns out that was not the case as I did not notice the sensitivity of it. Needless to say, my MSI Motherboard with an unspecified amp and a Realtek 4080 can't drive it.

 

When I tested it on my PC, it sounded worse than when I did in the store (to be fair, they lent me a Mojo AMP/Dac). It gets pretty loud but the bass extension just isn't as good. Not much of an improvement from my 560s in that aspect. Since I didn't have unlimited budget, I ordered the cheapest reasonable amp I could afford, which is a Moondrop Dawn Pro. It seemed pretty good but it just released less than a month ago so there isn't much information about it. Though the regular dawn has received pretty great reviews and the dawn pro is supposed to be its successor. The Dawn supposedly delivers 230mw @ 32 ohms on the 4.4mm balanced output but there isn't info on this for the Pro. The only spec I can find is that it delivers 4Vrms/120mW or 135mw @ 32 ohms but I'm not sure if its on the 3.5mm or balanced 4.4mm. I currently have a 4.4mm balanced cable on order so if it only delivers 135mw on the 4.4mm output then I'm a little concerned that it is not enough. I might be looking at the wrong things here so I kinda need help on this as I'm not familiar with the jargon used in the audio space.

 

I tried it on the Quad ES9218P DAC of the LG V50 and it has the same issue but worse as high gain mode isn't automatically enabled due to the low impedance.

 

Here's why I picked the Moondrop Dawn Pro

- Its cheap at $50 (I spent most of my budget on the Sundaras as I didn't think I'd need an amp)

- It's a dac/amp combo (My Logitech Powerplay mat keeps causing strange interfererence issues with the jack on the rear IO of my motherboard which led to frequent popping sounds so a dac could fix this)

- It's USB powered (I'm running out of power outlets due to the amount of stuff I have but I do have a ton of unused USB ports)

 

I initially wanted to pick up the FIIO KA3 but I decided to save the $15 which I am now worried could be a mistake. 

 

Thoughts?

[ImWilly]

In my opinion, as long as you're using your current DAC for easy to drive headphone, it doesn't really matter if you're using a really expensive or cheap but good enough DAC

The main use for DAC after all is to put a 'distance' from the noisy motherboard, which will have cleaner noise compared to directly plugging headphone to the motherboard

 

However this scenario, if you're using a good headphone such as 2018 Hifiman Sundaras and Sennheiser HD 560s (both around $200-300), buying $80-100 DAC would make better sense to balance on your setup (i.e. Topping DX1, FiiO K3)

 

Moondrop Dawn Pro probably is good enough and a huge upgrade than plugging to your motherboard for your current headphone, as long as you're not driving it at the max volume (which is not good for your ear, especially on the long term) or you have a God-tier ear sensitivity.

[Idkwhat2putheresowhatever]

1 hour ago, ImWilly said:

In my opinion, as long as you're using your current DAC for easy to drive headphone, it doesn't really matter if you're using a really expensive or cheap but good enough DAC

The main use for DAC after all is to put a 'distance' from the noisy motherboard, which will have cleaner noise compared to directly plugging headphone to the motherboard

 

However this scenario, if you're using a good headphone such as 2018 Hifiman Sundaras and Sennheiser HD 560s (both around $200-300), buying $80-100 DAC would make better sense to balance on your setup (i.e. Topping DX1, FiiO K3)

 

Moondrop Dawn Pro probably is good enough and a huge upgrade than plugging to your motherboard for your current headphone, as long as you're not driving it at the max volume (which is not good for your ear, especially on the long term) or you have a God-tier ear sensitivity.

I totally get that I should have spent more. But I did not account for the amp when purchasing the headphones so it is causing me to blow past my initial budget for this. 

 

I don't need the volume, in fact it gets plenty loud at 50% volume. It just sounds a little off, which I'm hoping that the amp/dac combo will fix.

[Spuriae]

To be fair the 2018 Sundara isn't supposed to have more bass than the HD560S.

 

 

Power-wise, here's an approximate comparison:

Source	V into 32Ω (Vrms)	Power into 40Ω, at 32Ω voltage (mW)	Sundara max SPL (dBSPL)
FiiO KA3 SE	2.05	113.6	110.5
FiiO KA3 Balanced	2.75	204.4	113.1
Moondrop Dawn 3.5mm	1.6	69.2	108.4
Moondrop Dawn 4.4mm	2.1	119.2	110.7
Generic ALC1220 Motherboard	0.6	9.7	99.9
LG V50 Quad ES9218P	0.34	3.1	94.9

 

Sensitivity/Impedance measurements for Sundara taken from ASR.

KA3 measurements from 7AudioLab.

Moondrop Dawn measurements from 7AudioLab. There should be no difference between the output power of the standalone 3.5mm and 4.4mm versions of the Dawn and the combined Dawn Pro, because they use basically the same output circuit. This is supported by the 4.4mm Dawn's measured output power almost perfectly matching the spec on the Dawn Pro.

ALC1220 Motherboard numbers based on Realtek datasheet. The ALC1220 and ALC4080 are interchangeable power-wise since they should share the same analog section.

LG V50 based on my own measurements just now. They are close to ASR's measurements of the G7.

[ImWilly]

10 minutes ago, Idkwhat2putheresowhatever said:

in fact it gets plenty loud at 50% volume.

Well, then your DAC should be fine for your headphones

 

Just be happy for your purchase and love your ear

 

[rice guru]

On 8/27/2023 at 1:53 AM, Idkwhat2putheresowhatever said:

Just got a pair of 2018 Hifiman Sundaras to use alongside my Sennheiser HD 560s. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about audio stuff so I thought that the Sundaras having an impedance of only 37 ohms meant that it was pretty easy to drive. Turns out that was not the case as I did not notice the sensitivity of it. Needless to say, my MSI Motherboard with an unspecified amp and a Realtek 4080 can't drive it.

 

When I tested it on my PC, it sounded worse than when I did in the store (to be fair, they lent me a Mojo AMP/Dac). It gets pretty loud but the bass extension just isn't as good. Not much of an improvement from my 560s in that aspect. Since I didn't have unlimited budget, I ordered the cheapest reasonable amp I could afford, which is a Moondrop Dawn Pro. It seemed pretty good but it just released less than a month ago so there isn't much information about it. Though the regular dawn has received pretty great reviews and the dawn pro is supposed to be its successor. The Dawn supposedly delivers 230mw @ 32 ohms on the 4.4mm balanced output but there isn't info on this for the Pro. The only spec I can find is that it delivers 4Vrms/120mW or 135mw @ 32 ohms but I'm not sure if its on the 3.5mm or balanced 4.4mm. I currently have a 4.4mm balanced cable on order so if it only delivers 135mw on the 4.4mm output then I'm a little concerned that it is not enough. I might be looking at the wrong things here so I kinda need help on this as I'm not familiar with the jargon used in the audio space.

 

I tried it on the Quad ES9218P DAC of the LG V50 and it has the same issue but worse as high gain mode isn't automatically enabled due to the low impedance.

 

Here's why I picked the Moondrop Dawn Pro

- Its cheap at $50 (I spent most of my budget on the Sundaras as I didn't think I'd need an amp)

- It's a dac/amp combo (My Logitech Powerplay mat keeps causing strange interfererence issues with the jack on the rear IO of my motherboard which led to frequent popping sounds so a dac could fix this)

- It's USB powered (I'm running out of power outlets due to the amount of stuff I have but I do have a ton of unused USB ports)

 

I initially wanted to pick up the FIIO KA3 but I decided to save the $15 which I am now worried could be a mistake. 

 

Thoughts?

This is one of those cases where you should benefit from a larger amp. While on paper the headphones should work great with the dawn pro. I think this may be a case of the headphone being dry sounding and the gear at the store being a little colored sounding thus making a fair amount of difference. Sundara is bright and slightly dry sounding in my opinion but when I feed my liquid platinum or liquid spark amps which are both colored and are sorta disgned to smooth out the treble it very much improved the sound of the sundara extra power also helps being out more of the oomph in the bass. If you want to read more about planar and power here is a great article by audeze https://www.audeze.com/blogs/technology-and-innovation/sensitivity-impedance-and-amplifier-power

 

[HAL90000]

I'm a headphone fanatic. I have sundaras. You WILL not get the best performance out of them unless you feed them more than 700-800mW. Ideally more. What I did was get a Fiio K7 ($200 USD) which is a USB DAC/AMP and I swapped the headphone cable for a 4.4mm balanced cable. That allows the amp to feed even more power into the headphones. When you juice Hifiman headphones properly it sounds like live music. Very impactful and in your face.

It's actually risky to under amplify headphones especially at louder volumes. You're introducing clipping and even if its minor and you cant hear it you will eventually damage the driver. And even if you listen super quiet and make that a non issue, your expensive Sundaras are going to sound no better than $15 KZ IEMs until you feed them the juice they require. The only mobuile unit I'd even consider driving these from is an Ifi DSD Gryphon and even that is a bit weak for them I really think these are desktop amp territory headphones. You won't be disappointed with the K7 I promise.

For future reference, ALL high end audiophile grade headphones, especially planars, need a proper amp. And a proper amp makes even crappy stuff sound good. You should head Apple wired headphones ($20) on a proper IEM amp. Night and day. 

Get the K7.

[HAL90000]

On 8/27/2023 at 7:15 PM, Sigurd said:

It won’t. Use EQ to adjust the sound of your headphones.

This is an example of a person with no first hand experience or knowledge blowing smoke about something they dont understand. You need an amp for any planar full size headphone, and this person needs to get off the audio forum.

[Spuriae]

On 8/28/2023 at 6:10 AM, rice guru said:

This is one of those cases where you should benefit from a larger amp. While on paper the headphones should work great with the dawn pro. I think this may be a case of the headphone being dry sounding and the gear at the store being a little colored sounding thus making a fair amount of difference.

Rereading the first post, I don't think they have actually listened with the Dawn Pro yet, and are only comparing the motherboard and phone to the Chord Mojo.

 

I wonder if louder listening levels and different comparison headphones being available in-store compared to the home environment is also contributing to the higher perceived bass.

On 8/28/2023 at 6:10 AM, rice guru said:

If you want to read more about planar and power here is a great article by audeze https://www.audeze.com/blogs/technology-and-innovation/sensitivity-impedance-and-amplifier-power

This is true for amplifiers which clip, but the motherboard doesn't clip. If OP is fine with the motherboard below 50% volume, the output is limited by the digital volume setting and they genuinely have enough headroom for their content.

 

For amplifiers that don't clip, the main takeaway is the need for additional volume headroom – that derating from the peak to the average loudness is necessary. Even then, the peak levels they mention are misleading – virtually all commercially popular music has less than 15dB difference between peak and RMS level. The example used in the article (Black Arthur's Bounce) is an outlier and even then "only" has a -25dBfs RMS level.

 

Personally, I usually use 15dB derating as a rule of thumb for "loud enough", and like to leave an extra 15dB headroom for EQ.

2 hours ago, HAL90000 said:

It's actually risky to under amplify headphones especially at louder volumes. You're introducing clipping and even if its minor and you cant hear it you will eventually damage the driver.

Clipping a driver from too much power can certainly damage it, but how does limiting the driver's power via signal clipping damage it?

[HAL90000]

19 hours ago, Spuriae said:

Rereading the first post, I don't think they have actually listened with the Dawn Pro yet, and are only comparing the motherboard and phone to the Chord Mojo.

 

I wonder if louder listening levels and different comparison headphones being available in-store compared to the home environment is also contributing to the higher perceived bass.

This is true for amplifiers which clip, but the motherboard doesn't clip. If OP is fine with the motherboard below 50% volume, the output is limited by the digital volume setting and they genuinely have enough headroom for their content.

 

For amplifiers that don't clip, the main takeaway is the need for additional volume headroom – that derating from the peak to the average loudness is necessary. Even then, the peak levels they mention are misleading – virtually all commercially popular music has less than 15dB difference between peak and RMS level. The example used in the article (Black Arthur's Bounce) is an outlier and even then "only" has a -25dBfs RMS level.

 

Personally, I usually use 15dB derating as a rule of thumb for "loud enough", and like to leave an extra 15dB headroom for EQ.

Clipping a driver from too much power can certainly damage it, but how does limiting the driver's power via signal clipping damage it?

 

Loud volumes with insufficient amplification are definitely dangerous and the two sets of KEF Q300's I blew on a 40W amp when I started in the hobby can vouch for that. 

[Idkwhat2putheresowhatever]

Hey everyone, thanks for all your responses.

 

I decided that since I wasn't able to return the Dawn Pro, I would just use it with a 4.4mm balanced cable. Sure, it definitely isn't able to bring out the true performance of the Sundaras, but it got close to what I was expecting from it, even more so after using oratory1990's eq. The bass isn't earth shattering but its really tight and crisp. The soundstage is also wider than my 560s. So I'm pretty satisfied for now. The volume is comfortable for me at around 50-55%.

 

I will get a better amp eventually, when I decide that I can splurge a little bit more of audio equipment. Or maybe when I'm better versed regarding these things.

 

Once again, thank you guys for your help.

[HAL90000]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:00 AM, Idkwhat2putheresowhatever said:

Hey everyone, thanks for all your responses.

 

I decided that since I wasn't able to return the Dawn Pro, I would just use it with a 4.4mm balanced cable. Sure, it definitely isn't able to bring out the true performance of the Sundaras, but it got close to what I was expecting from it, even more so after using oratory1990's eq. The bass isn't earth shattering but its really tight and crisp. The soundstage is also wider than my 560s. So I'm pretty satisfied for now. The volume is comfortable for me at around 50-55%.

 

I will get a better amp eventually, when I decide that I can splurge a little bit more of audio equipment. Or maybe when I'm better versed regarding these things.

 

Once again, thank you guys for your help.

That thing only outputs 120mW and you're using it with a headphone that needs 500-1000mW to work properly. It's your money. 

[fonzz1e]

On 9/2/2023 at 9:00 PM, Idkwhat2putheresowhatever said:

I will get a better amp eventually

just look around yer local market place, ebay or craigslist

 

i managed to grab a used ifi zen can for below 100 usd on fb marketplace,
i did however need to buy a 5v 4a adapter & a 4.4 male to male cable for it tho