EA's Jedi Survivor extremely difficult to access for lefties and people with a disability.

[Eigenvektor]

1 hour ago, fpo said:

…

Sure, I get all the business decisions behind it. And I get that a company being lazy isn't intentional discrimination. But if people point out that software isn't accessible and the company chooses to intentionally ignore that, that's when starts to become discrimination. Let's see what happens with the EU's 2025 Accessibility Act.

 

Frankly, I find games that do not have customizable controls to be unacceptable for the most part. I can understand when an indie studio doesn't have the experience or if its a super simple game with one or two buttons to press. But for a tripe-A studio it shouldn't be too much to ask to have that as a standard in every one of their games. It's not a new concept and not super hard to implement either.

[LAwLz]

37 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

But if people point out that software isn't accessible and the company chooses to intentionally ignore that, that's when starts to become discrimination.

You've said this several times now but do you have any source?

 

37 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Let's see what happens with the EU's 2025 Accessibility Act.

Pretty sure that doesn't cover games. 

Even if it does cover games, I find it hard to believe that "being left-handed" would classify as a disability.

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Let's see what happens with the EU's 2025 Accessibility Act.

I'm not aware of this law.

36 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Frankly, I find games that do not have customizable controls to be unacceptable for the most part. I can understand when an indie studio doesn't have the experience or if its a super simple game with one or two buttons to press. But for a tripe-A studio it shouldn't be too much to ask to have that as a standard in every one of their games. It's not a new concept and not super hard to implement either.

Naturally.
AAA companies & large corporations have certain problems that allow these petty mistakes to be made.
I won't talk about them, but it's deeper than "Why tf did they let a dev make this stupid decision?"

[Holmes108]

I'm a lefty, and definitely wouldn't support devs to be forced legally to program a videogame a certain way. But I'm the wrong person to ask about that, as I tend to be anti regulation on most things that aren't a little more life or death/essential, which is a whole other rabbit hole.

 

Although there is a special place in hell for devs who don't allow you to invert the Y axis. It's pretty rare, but you know who you are.

[Eigenvektor]

23 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

You've said this several times now but do you have any source?

 

Pretty sure that doesn't cover games. 

Even if it does cover games, I find it hard to believe that "being left-handed" would classify as a disability.

I've said it exactly twice so far. It's my opinion. There's no other source. How would you define discrimination?

 

As I said above, being left handed is not a physical disability. I completely agree. But creating tools and software that can't be properly used by left handed people turns it into one. It makes stuff less accessible to people who do not have the fine motor control in their right hand. If you're right handed and you've ever tried to write with your left, I hope you understand what I mean by that.

 

13 minutes ago, Holmes108 said:

I'm a lefty, and definitely wouldn't support devs to be forced legally to program a videogame a certain way.

How about not forcing gamers to control a game a certain way?

 

Does it change anything about a game if e.g. users can choose which button does what, rather than forcing them to use a certain layout? Or to include options for people with color blindness, so they too can enjoy the game? What about people who can't use a mouse with their right hand, is it good to make your game inaccessible to them? As I said, if we're talking about small indie developers, that stuff may be acceptable. But when we're talking about multi-billion dollar companies, is it really too much to ask they include the bare minimum?

 

45 minutes ago, fpo said:

I'm not aware of this law.

https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1202&intPageId=5581&langId=en

Not saying this has anything to do with being left handed specifically, of course. And again, not saying being left handed is a physical disability.

[GamerMoment]

Ok.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

 

 

https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=1202&intPageId=5581&langId=en

Not saying this has anything to do with being left handed specifically,

Correct. 

4 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

of course. And again, not saying being left handed is a physical disability.

But it seems like lawyers could argue video games being one of the specified software/services. 

(Audio visual media.) 

 

Idk, I don't live in the EU, so people can .... Word word word word word. 

[Holmes108]

5 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

 

 

How about not forcing gamers to control a game a certain way?

 

Does it change anything about a game if e.g. users can choose which button does what, rather than forcing them to use a certain layout? Or to include options for people with color blindness, so they too can enjoy the game? What about people who can't use a mouse with their right hand, is it good to make your game inaccessible to them? As I said, if we're talking about small indie developers, that stuff may be acceptable. But when we're talking about multi-billion dollar companies, is it really too much to ask they include the bare minimum?

 

 

Doesn't hurt at all to ask, and I think Devs would be really smart to implement that stuff (especially stuff that may be relatively easy),  but I think someone should be able to make any type of game they please, and wouldn't support actual laws to force any of that stuff, no. 

[Eigenvektor]

2 hours ago, Holmes108 said:

Doesn't hurt at all to ask, and I think Devs would be really smart to implement that stuff (especially stuff that may be relatively easy),  but I think someone should be able to make any type of game they please, and wouldn't support actual laws to force any of that stuff, no. 

Sure, it doesn't hurt to ask. But I've seen numerous examples of people asking and companies refusing to add even the simplest of options, like key rebinding. As @fpo pointed out previously, there's no financial incentive to do so, which is all companies care about.

 

I see nothing wrong with forcing corporations to play nice. The devs are still free to make whatever game they please. But they are forced to make it accessible to more people, which is a distinct concept.

 

Forget about the left handed angle here. Think about people with actual physical disabilities, like missing limbs, missing fingers etc. There is zero financial incentive for companies to improve the accessibility for people like this. I'm all for a law that forces them to add the bare minimum of accessibility options. Because otherwise it's never going to happen.

 

As I said above, I work as a developer (not gaming related). So far any mention of accessibility has essentially been treated with a shrug by higher ups, because it only adds cost. Even though we have (and/or had) employees directly affected.

[Eigenvektor]

15 hours ago, fpo said:

I use non-standard controls.
I am not discriminated against.

It just occured to me that this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue at hand.

 

I'm not saying: Oh no, I have to use non-standard controls, therefore discrimination. And, as far as I can see, OP isn't talking about this either.

 

What we're complaining about is: I am unable to _adjust controls_ to my needs, therefore discrimination.

 

Discrimination does not have to be intentional to have a negative effect. It can be the result of lazyness and/or being inconsiderate.

 

https://www.brunel.net/en-au/blog/social-issues/discrimination-in-the-workplace

[WallacEngineering]

Well, this is an easy one...

 

@Stonedog, chill out bro, its not intentional discrimination, relax.

 

You know how many games go without key features for even months after release? Ya, a shit ton, this is normal. You just feel alienated because this particular issue affects your ability to play the game at all.

 

@Eigenvektor Ya it could be called discrimination out of sheer inconsideration but come on... Its a video game and its surely not intentional.

 

You could maybe call it lazy-ness or a failure to look over important details before release and either one could be correct, but there is something else to consider...

 

Video games are EXTREMELY difficult to develop these days in general. They are getting extremely complicated with huge open world maps, extremely detailed environments, extremely high-end textures, and extremely complex game mechanics. Why do you think the Average new AAA IP takes about 7-8 years to develop?

 

Yes, in this case its a bit strange and it should be fairly simple to implement the ability to re-bind some keys for leftys. But don't jump to overly-exaggerated conclusions like discrimination or racism or whatever.

 

Its a video game bruh, just go play something else for now and wait for them to fix it. Its life, get over it.

[LAwLz]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:06 AM, Eigenvektor said:

It just occured to me that this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue at hand.

 

I'm not saying: Oh no, I have to use non-standard controls, therefore discrimination. And, as far as I can see, OP isn't talking about this either.

 

What we're complaining about is: I am unable to _adjust controls_ to my needs, therefore discrimination.

 

Discrimination does not have to be intentional to have a negative effect. It can be the result of lazyness and/or being inconsiderate.

 

https://www.brunel.net/en-au/blog/social-issues/discrimination-in-the-workplace

I am not sure which country you are in, but in Sweden, it is only discrimination if you are being treated differently because of your:

1) Gender

2) Gender identity

3) Ethnicity

4) Religion

5) Disability (and no, being left-handed is not a disability)

6) Sexuality

7) Age

 

 

"Preference for controller configuration in video games" is not one of the things that can get classified as discrimination in Sweden. Most countries have similar things. By using very strong words to describe what is a quite insignificant issue, you are weakening and lessening the word. I don't think people who have been physically assaulted because of their race or sexual preference would be very happy if you said "I have been the victim of discriminated too. I am not allowed to change the controls in a star wars game".

 

Discrimination is in general when a group of people is treated worse because they belong to that group. For example, a person with black skin color not being allowed into a building but white people are. EA Games didn't have a check box when you started the game that asked "are you right or left-handed" and then change the available options depending on what you picked.

 

And just to be clear, I don't think this is discrimination. But I do think that this is an issue. It can be non-discriminatory and still be something that should be changed. I don't think anyone in this thread objects to the statement that the game would be better if it allowed you to change the controls however you wanted. What people object to (me included) is the choice of wording and the potential accusations of them doing it intentionally. And also the refusal to just use any of the several workarounds suggested so that OP can enjoy the game without any issues.

It gives off the impression that OP isn't really looking for a solution, but instead looking to bitch and whine, and get people to grab pitchforks and fight in his personal army.

[seanondemand]

I might've seen a special edition at this store the other day...
 

[SansVarnic]

Just going to throw this out there for consumption, both of my parents are left-handed, so I understand your plight.

 

On average lefties make up of about 10-15% of the world population, that being what it is, things are typically and naturally made for the right hander for reasons of standardization, there is no intentional discrimination here. 

Being a lefty, you should already be aware of and should already be adopting changes to account for this.

As already pointed out adaptations and feature get added in later, this time it may be an oversight but from what I read over thus far it seems you're to me you're on just a bit over in the reaction department. Please take it down a notch.

 

Discrimination is an act of intention, don't broaden the stroke more than is needed in an attempt to make mountain out a molehill.

 

On 7/6/2023 at 5:59 AM, Stonedog said:

But the core issue is that this has been ongoing since April. And it's not fixed.

Over 2 months... some patches take time, and usually more than 2/3 months. Patience.

 

I remember when before re-mapping was a thing, how do you think we handled it then?

[Eigenvektor]

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am not sure which country you are in, but in Sweden, it is only discrimination if you are being treated differently because of your:

5) Disability (and no, being left-handed is not a disability)

Correct, being left handed does not make me physically disabled. It is only a difference in physical ability. Which can, however, result in actual disadvantages.

 

Consider that roughly 90% of the world's population is right handed. That means the overwhelming majority of appliances are designed by right handed people. Causing them to inadvertently end up designed for right handed people. The idea that something might not be accessible (or less accessible) to a left handed person simply is never considered in the first place.

 

Maybe discrimination is too strong a word for this. But if a group of people is constantly marginalized and forgotten about I'm not sure what else to call it. Wikipedia does include an article about Bias against left-handed people in their series about discrimination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people

 

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

"Preference for controller configuration in video games" is not one of the things that can get classified as discrimination in Sweden. Most countries have similar things. By using very strong words to describe what is a quite insignificant issue, you are weakening and lessening the word.

This isn't only about my like or dislike of a particular keyboard layout. It's about the inability of differently abled people (including actual physical disabilities) from accessing a game. I'm not sure I would call that insignificant. It is an accessibility issue. Left-handed people are simply another group affected by this. And we can't even complain about it because, hey you're not disabled, gtfo.

 

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I don't think people who have been physically assaulted because of their race or sexual preference would be very happy if you said "I have been the victim of discriminated too. I am not allowed to change the controls in a star wars game".

Sure, if you word it like that, it sounds ridiculous. However, if you read the Wiki article, you can see that left-handed people can absolutely be victims of violence. Which, thankfully, isn't a thing in the western world (anymore). Neither was I forced to learn to write with my right hand, as my mother was, which I also consider a plus.

 

The worst I have to endure is the odd joke when somebody discovers I'm left-handed (note: I generally don't go out of my way to point it out, but if I have to use a pen, people tend to notice). That is a far cry removed from physical assault, of course. I wouldn't even call it verbal abuse. People simply never consider that parroting some prejudice against left-handed people simply isn't a funny joke the 1000th time around.

 

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Discrimination is in general when a group of people is treated worse because they belong to that group. For example, a person with black skin color not being allowed into a building but white people are. EA Games didn't have a check box when you started the game that asked "are you right or left-handed" and then change the available options depending on what you picked.

No, but neither did it give me that option to adjust the default layout to one that is more suitable to people who use the mouse with their left hand. Though I'm not even asking for this much. Just give me the ability to adjust controls to my needs.

 

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

What people object to (me included) is the choice of wording and the potential accusations of them doing it intentionally.

I don't think anyone said they did it intentionally. However, I did point out that their refusal to deal with the issue when it is pointed out to them is not a point in their favor either.

 

It is still an issue that is constantly forgotten about and when pointed out, it is pointedly ignored. And it's not like this is this particular company's first game, nor is it the first game with such issues. Call it ignorance or inconsideration for all I care. The end result is the same, the issue is forgotten about, time and again.

 

21 hours ago, LAwLz said:

And also the refusal to just use any of the several workarounds suggested so that OP can enjoy the game without any issues.

I'm happy there are workarounds. Just as I was happy there are mods for e.g. Fallout that make it possible to use the numpad keys.

 

But I'm unhappy there even need to be. Especially in a game that uses an engine that has been around for ages (e.g. Unreal for StarWars, I think?) where keyboard customization is part of the standard package. It's not rocket science to make a keyboard layout adjustable.

 

13 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

Discrimination is an act of intention, don't broaden the stroke more than is needed in an attempt to make mountain out a molehill.

Discrimination does not have to be intentional. It can also be the result of ignorance or inconsideration. You don't have to intentionally design a building to be inaccessible to people in a wheelchair. Whether intentional or not, if you do not consider a group of people while designing a thing, you may end up excluding that group.

[Mark Kaine]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:37 PM, Stonedog said:

It is *absolutely* discrimination if, after learning about the issue, which has a fundamental impact on the ability of some players to interact with the game, they do nothing about it.

 

Assuming you are right handed here, have you tried playing a game as a lefty? 

I don't think you get to say what is and isn't discrimination based on your perception of its severity. 

 

Why should I have to edit game files or download 3rd party software to access a game? 

yeah... on the other hand why should you give a company money that discriminates you or otherwise does something you don't like? (and yes, i mean ea here, not sure about keyboards,  i can't play video games using a typewriter like device anyway,  that's why controllers exist)

[LAwLz]

On 7/10/2023 at 8:54 PM, Eigenvektor said:

Maybe discrimination is too strong a word for this. But if a group of people is constantly marginalized and forgotten about I'm not sure what else to call it. Wikipedia does include an article about Bias against left-handed people in their series about discrimination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people

Yes, it is a too strong word. That is my entire issue with your and OP's posts.

 

Not everything bad that happens against you is discrimination. I am very tall, so I am often uncomfortable in cars, buses, trains, airplanes, cinemas, etc. I don't go around yelling that the cinema is discriminating against me because I can't sit as comfortably as my friends can. Nor do I demand that they make special seats for me. I would love for the seats to be slightly larger so I don't have to sit in a crooked way, but asking and demanding are two separate things. What OP seems to be doing is demanding, and trying to paint himself as a serious victim of injustice, done by the evil corporation known as EA. This is quite hilarious since we are talking about not being able to change the controls in a video game... It's a really trivial thing, especially since there are workarounds for it.

 

 

On 7/10/2023 at 8:54 PM, Eigenvektor said:

It is an accessibility issue. Left-handed people are simply another group affected by this. And we can't even complain about it because, hey you're not disabled, gtfo.

I didn't say you aren't allowed to complain about it. I just told you that you should use specific strong words to describe trivial things because it lessens the impact of the word. Also, you don't get to claim that you are disabled when you aren't. It also is an insult to actually disabled people.

Several posts in this thread come across as someone who wants to get sympathy points, but is really grasping at straws to get them. It honestly comes off as pathetic in my eyes.

 

 

On 7/10/2023 at 8:54 PM, Eigenvektor said:

Sure, if you word it like that, it sounds ridiculous. However, if you read the Wiki article, you can see that left-handed people can absolutely be victims of violence. Which, thankfully, isn't a thing in the western world (anymore). Neither was I forced to learn to write with my right hand, as my mother was, which I also consider a plus.

I can't find anything in the Wikipedia article about left-handed people being physically assaulted for being left-handed unless you count "needing to write with their right hand" as being a "victim of violence", which I would say is once again you using incorrect terms to try and gain sympathy and seem like a bigger victim than you really are.

I am not going around saying I was a victim of violence because the seat on a bus was too short for my legs, thus making me slightly uncomfortable. Neither should you sat your mother was a victim of violence because she was forced to write with her right hand despite being left-handed. Calling that violence is an insult to real people of violence.

 

 

On 7/10/2023 at 8:54 PM, Eigenvektor said:

I don't think anyone said they did it intentionally. However, I did point out that their refusal to deal with the issue when it is pointed out to them is not a point in their favor either.

Claiming that they are aware of the issue and refusing to change it is pretty much the same as saying they are doing it intentionally.

I haven't seen them say they refuse to deal with the issue by the way. In fact, the only official response I found was that they were looking into it. 

The game hasn't even been out for 3 months. Maybe chill with the accusations for a little bit? It's not the end of the world if you have to use a third-party program to play a game for a little while.

 

 

 

I wouldn't have had any issue with this topic if it just said:

"hey, you can't change the keybindings of certain controls in Jedi Survivor. Just a heads up if you for example are left-handed like me and want to use custom controls. You will need to use a third-party software to play the game comfortably". 

It's the whole "buuhuu I am such a victim of discrimination. I am disabled and people need to accommodate my needs! I am being oppressed by an evil corporation. Since I am a victim, you need to join me in attacking this company I don't like, and if you disagree then you aren't allowed to comment!" that I dislike and have an issue with.

 

 

I think that a lot of people feel the same way. I think everyone here agrees that it seems like a really trivial thing for EA to change (and they probably will do it), and that it sucks for left-handed people to have to resort to using third-party software in the meantime.

What people like I don't agree with are:

1) The hostile tone.

2) The big accusations being thrown around left and right.

3) The very strong words being used to describe fairly trivial things.

4) The assistance that OP and presumably you are very big victims that others should feel bad for when we are talking about a fucking video game that hasn't even been out for 3 months. People just need to chill out a bit. There is no need to make a mountain out of a molehill.

[Holmes108]

And I'll point out that it's also not the case that you can't rebind at all. You just can't bind them precisely the way some people (myself included) might prefer.

 

It does seem silly to lock the arrows (or any other key), but you still have the vast majority of the keyboard available to come up with something workable (from what I can see, I haven't played). This makes it even less of a crisis, in my personal opinion.

[BrandonLatzig]

I am really really **Really** late but
Couldn't you just use a controller? though this is assuming that it has controller presets for southpaw, but a controller would work fine, right?