Compensation vs a good work environment

[Neroon]

So I saw this short chat on the WAN Show about job satisfaction, and it's definitely something that matters a lot to me, and I'm guessing to a lot of you as well, but I'm guessing not everyone will feel the same way.

 

The short version is about whether you rather get paid more, but you work in a more toxic/unpleasant environment, or work in a pleasant work environment, but get paid less.

 

Now obviously most people will ask why not both, because for example the snack situation Linus talks about, is not gonna be a big difference, and can be easily solved by buying it yourself.
Also for argument sake, we assume that the pay you get less, is the reason why the work environment is so much better. So think proper parking, certain benefits, decent workloads, things like management/HR using enough time to solve issues if they arise etc. Oh and lets also assume you get paid enough to pay your bills and live at least a reasonably comfortable life.

 

 

So I'm a social/youth worker, and have been for 15 years. I live in the Netherlands and we are actually quite decently compensated over here. My gf is in the same field, and we rent a 3 bedroom home with a large attic, well insulated, solar panels, triple glass etc. We have 2 cars, both decent, and we can save up still. She works 28 hours, I work 36, we also have a young child.

 

We aren't poor, we are doing well, but buying a house, is for us something we can't do atm.

 

While our healthcare is among the best of the world, obviously it can always be better. At my last job I was responsible for 12 problematic teens (15-18), for most of my shifts at a group home, and when I say I was responsible, I'm talking about doing most of my shift alone. We are talking about kids doing drugs, being highly offensive to you, not going to school, and basically doing whatever the fuck they want.

It's a tough job, and it eventually caused me to burn out, and not just me, but at least half my team in a single year, with others quitting the job. We went through over 50 employees in 3 years, with the size of the team being about 12.

This was during covid, with lockdowns happening.

I remember our senate having a vote on increasing our salary, with so many of my colleagues agreeing with it, with our left winged parties agreeing with it, including my own. And I was just left being surprised that this is the increase they want.

I get it, we all want more money. How many of us are gonna reject more money? But what we really need is more money to hire more people. I didn't burnout because I didn't get paid enough, I got burned out because when I got home, I was exhausted, because I felt like I couldn't help these kids, because I didn't have the time or back up to help them.

And hey I was the most experienced person in my team. I had a lot of young people who just got out of college, who had to do it all alone, people only a few years older, having to take care of kids that 'failed' everywhere else. How?

 

So yeah I rather get paid less, and enjoy me work, where I can leave on time, where I can finish all my work, because at my previous job I didn't have time for all the other stuff that needed to happen, so that when I get home, I can enjoy my free time.

 

In my current job we have 2 shifts all day, and it makes the job so much more pleasant, the pay is actually the same, so that's a big plus, but I'm much more rested, and that's worth a lot to me. Having enough people to spread the workload, with other people investing in you and the rest of the team, creating a pleasant work environment, is absolutely key to enjoying your work. Could I get paid more in a job I won't like as much? Sure. But it ain't worth it.

 

 

So how do you all look at this?

[CerealExperimentsLain]

Eating shit for high pay is better than eating shit for low pay.  But most people will happily have to eat zero shit for very reasonable pay.

 

Yes, everyone wants money, money enables you do do everything but work.  Support your family, fund your hobbies, vacations, adventures and all that.  But there's a value in not coming home from work every night and saying 'I swear to god, I'm going to quit this awful job some day'. too.

 

There's also a difference between 'A genuine good office culture' and 'A bullshit good office culture'.

 

I worked at a place that did crazy over time.  Like 72hr weeks often.  For the 'sake of employees' they put TVs and game consoles in the lounges.  ...We we're working 12hrs a day, six days a week, you think anyone had time to play Xbox in the lounge?  That was just decoration the suits put in to impress other visiting suits.  That's 'Bullshit Good Office Culture'.  It's not real, it's just a ruse to trick you.

 

On the other hand, lemme put it this way, my spouse is in the military.  When she deployed early 2021, dead winter, start of 'Lockdown #2'.  Not a good time.  I was not doing well, I told my current employer and they said 'Take the next week off, it's paid, don't worry about it.  Go.'  When she came back they didn't hesitate to make sure I could take time off to fly off to BC when her ship returned to Canada at the end of the summer.  Now she's headed off again to Latvia in a couple weeks, while the circumstances of this deployment are far, far, far better, there was not a hesitation when I said 'I gotta take a personal day off in June, we're going to Trenton so she can board her transport to Europe'. 

 

Most employers want loyal employees but they will never return that loyalty to the employee.  But if your loyal to the employee, like ACTUALLY loyal, that'll get you employees who are actually loyal in return.  It's really something to feel appreciated and not just like an replicable cog in the machine who is expected to give 110% to the company and get 10% back from the company.

[Razercake]

I'm going into a new job in 2 weeks & they've already been super accommodating towards me. like I'm getting a tour of the offices next week, before the official first day. so I don't get overwhelmed with everything on day 1(ASD), we already talked about WFH days. ideally after training ill only have to go to the office twice a week(even though HRs book says you need 3 office days), Pay is really good. but I'd take a significant salary cut to work in a place like this, where I feel valued & my boss is very focused on making sure everyone is happy. 

 

that being said, I've only been to 2 interviews & talked with him over the phone a couple of times. So could be a terrible place, a wolf in sheep's clothing or something, but so far impressions have been good & if it is as good as it seems. I'd gladly work there for less than what I'm going to get now. (Don't tell my boss)  

 

I'd be so drained if I had to work somewhere I didn't enjoy. + side of working in a place you feel valued, I feel more motivated to actually try & do good work. being in a toxic workplace, my motivation to actually work hard would cease to exist. I already have a hard time doing things I enjoy, so doing something I hate every day. I'd props get fired for low performance to be honest. 

[Swndlr]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:15 PM, CerealExperimentsLain said:

Eating shit for high pay is better than eating shit for low pay.  But most people will happily have to eat zero shit for very reasonable pay.

 

Yes, everyone wants money, money enables you do do everything but work.  Support your family, fund your hobbies, vacations, adventures and all that.  But there's a value in not coming home from work every night and saying 'I swear to god, I'm going to quit this awful job some day'. too.

 

There's also a difference between 'A genuine good office culture' and 'A bullshit good office culture'.

 

I worked at a place that did crazy over time.  Like 72hr weeks often.  For the 'sake of employees' they put TVs and game consoles in the lounges.  ...We we're working 12hrs a day, six days a week, you think anyone had time to play Xbox in the lounge?  That was just decoration the suits put in to impress other visiting suits.  That's 'Bullshit Good Office Culture'.  It's not real, it's just a ruse to trick you.

 

On the other hand, lemme put it this way, my spouse is in the military.  When she deployed early 2021, dead winter, start of 'Lockdown #2'.  Not a good time.  I was not doing well, I told my current employer and they said 'Take the next week off, it's paid, don't worry about it.  Go.'  When she came back they didn't hesitate to make sure I could take time off to fly off to BC when her ship returned to Canada at the end of the summer.  Now she's headed off again to Latvia in a couple weeks, while the circumstances of this deployment are far, far, far better, there was not a hesitation when I said 'I gotta take a personal day off in June, we're going to Trenton so she can board her transport to Europe'. 

 

Most employers want loyal employees but they will never return that loyalty to the employee.  But if your loyal to the employee, like ACTUALLY loyal, that'll get you employees who are actually loyal in return.  It's really something to feel appreciated and not just like an replicable cog in the machine who is expected to give 110% to the company and get 10% back from the company.

This is honestly quite accurate. Everyone has a threshold that they will operate within if it serves as a means to an end. Of course, not everyone has the luxury of being able to make the decision between multiple opportunities offering various types of environments, conditions, and compensation.

 

I have some friends who are generally pretty miserable during the week because of the expected long hours that their careers require, but they tolerate it because they're young, have the energy to get through it, and are paid handsomely (allowing them to have the fun they want, buy some flashy things, and still save considerably) with the expectation of future growth - another important factor to consider. These people, like many others, work along the lines of the saying 'short-term pain for long-term gain,' in other words, they'll put in the hours, earn their stay, and use the present as an opportunity to build upon their foundational knowledge knowing that what comes next is worthwhile (i.e. their future selves won't have to work such long hours and will be earning considerably more).

 

@Neroon, my question to you is, finances aside (not to make too many assumptions, but it sounds like you are doing ok) do you see yourself progressing professionally? Do you feel like you're hitting a wall? You mentioned you've been in this field for 15 years, how has your compensation for your experience changed over that time? Has your relationship with money changed since entering the field? Have you largely spent it with one company or multiple? @CerealExperimentsLain said it pretty well in mentioning the value of coming home (or signing off if you work remotely) and being able to look back on your day without feelings of disdain, or even worse, the feeling of "I can't believe I have to do it all over again tomorrow." Your mental well-being impacts your ability to perform your job, and if a company that you work for does not care to acknowledge this in the form of ensuring adequate staffing or other factors, the one you are hurting the most is yourself. On the bright side, it sounds like you already have a solid understanding of the type of environment you want to be in.

 

For what it is worth, I am one of the people who are willing to accept a slightly lower compensation than some of my peers in exchange for a great work environment - which is true, I made that decision and live that reality now. And yes, this would obviously change if I wasn't making enough money to sustain myself and the lifestyle I've grown accustomed to. After all, if your chief concern is ensuring you have food to eat and a safe place to sleep each night, your attention should be primarily focused on increasing your income despite your feelings about the workplace. Cover yourself now, and worry about the rest later. But for now, it sounds like you are a step or two, or a few, beyond this concern, and are more concerned with fulfillment and joy in your job. If this is the case, and your current employer is unable to offer this, it might be time to find another opportunity.

[Neroon]

4 hours ago, Swndlr said:

Neroon, my question to you is, finances aside (not to make too many assumptions, but it sounds like you are doing ok) do you see yourself progressing professionally? Do you feel like you're hitting a wall? You mentioned you've been in this field for 15 years, how has your compensation for your experience changed over that time? Has your relationship with money changed since entering the field? Have you largely spent it with one company or multiple?

No, I do not see myself progressing professionally. I have hit a wall, my income won't go up anymore in my current situation. In my field (youthworker) our salaries are set by industry agreements, agreements made by the workers, but generally salary only goes up by the amount of inflation.

Every year your salary grows, this is fixed, both in number, and the fact that it happens, performance does not play a factor. Last year I reached the max, meaning it will not go up. The organizations I work for, are effectively non-profit, and are fully subsidised by the government, so it's not like they are making more money. In fact many organisations struggle financially, and the government constantly have to compensate for increase in costs, covid in particular was extremely expensive, because if I had signs of covid, I couldn't work, because there is pretty much no work I can do from home.

 

That said, I will getting a higher degree in a few years, gonna start this year, and will take 4 years to finish, but realistically, my salary will only go up by a few 100, like maybe 400 tops.

 

I have worked for many organizations, but salary is basically the same everywhere, while mental health, youthwork and general social work, have different agreements, it won't differ more than like 50 euro. Which is for a reason, you need the same qualifications and all that.

 

My relationship to money has changed in some ways, but not that many.

I come from a poor family where we basically never had savings, and I've had longer periods of debt.

As a student I basically never had any money, and aside from some late payments, I never had any real issues. I'm still paying back a part of my student debt (most is paid by the government, in my case it was 20k that I had to pay), but that's done quite soon. Paying basically no interest btw.

 

When I finished college, I started to make so money, nothing major, but for someone always living cheap, I was able to save up, and slowly but surely I started to get all the things I needed/wanted, and over the years I started investing in quality products more and more. So I'm at a point where we basically don't need to replace anything in our house for the foreseeable future.

 

This leaves us with money to go on some vacations, although we generally do them fairly cheap, go out to dinner etc. 

 

So my lifestyle has changed in the sense that I use much more money on fun things, we are still very conscience of how much things cost. Vacations cost us around 150 euro a day for both of us, and we usually don't go for longer than 4-5 days. Restaurants usually costs us like 35 each, which used to be less before mass inflation.

 

Now inflation + a baby has definitely reduced the amount we can save up, but we still do fine. In the end it's all about spending less, than what's coming in.

 

That said, me hitting that salary ceiling, is a bit worrying. I understand it, I don't disagree with it, but having a child, my gf working 4 hours less, me probably going back 4 hours as well in september, with the addition of everything being so much more expensive, does really make me realize that the amount we save each month, is only going down for the next 4 years. After that I will get a bump in salary, but I will immediately hit a new ceiling again.

 

It won't change my career choice, I will keep working in this field, there is nothing else I would want to do. Maybe I will do something on the side someday, find a niche in time where I can jump in, like 3d modeling and printing was a few years ago, but I am happy where I am.

 

Btw what really helps, is that everyone around me is in a similar situation. Our direct family makes less than us, our friends are either very similar, or a little more, but 2x at the very most. And while it shouldn't matter, it helps that in our own little world, no one has that lifestyle that makes you think about making different choices. They are not driving up in a 100k+ car, spending 10k+ on a vacation, living in a 1 mill+ home or whatever. They are like us.

[cooky560]

What really matters I feel is a balance between the two. No-one wants to work in a toxic environment, however at the same time, a loving workplace that doesn't pay enough to keep you fed and housed isn't going to help either.

 

Really this is a personal question, you have to consider how you feel at work, vs what your preferred lifestyle costs, and somewhere in the middle is your compromise. 

 

What are you willing to put up with from your colleagues / boss?

 

What are you willing to sacrifice in terms of lifestyle for a good work place?

 

The two questions are opposite ends of a see-saw, and you need to find the balance between affordable lifestyle and workplace happiness that satisfies you.

 

For most people, money is king, however if your work place is causing you unwanted issues (either physical, mental ,or emotional) it might be worth considering a change of career to avoid that issue, provided that any new offer is affordable at the standards you will accept.

[Swndlr]

10 hours ago, Neroon said:

No, I do not see myself progressing professionally. I have hit a wall, my income won't go up anymore in my current situation. In my field (youthworker) our salaries are set by industry agreements, agreements made by the workers, but generally salary only goes up by the amount of inflation.

Every year your salary grows, this is fixed, both in number, and the fact that it happens, performance does not play a factor. Last year I reached the max, meaning it will not go up. The organizations I work for, are effectively non-profit, and are fully subsidised by the government, so it's not like they are making more money. In fact many organisations struggle financially, and the government constantly have to compensate for increase in costs, covid in particular was extremely expensive, because if I had signs of covid, I couldn't work, because there is pretty much no work I can do from home.

 

That said, I will getting a higher degree in a few years, gonna start this year, and will take 4 years to finish, but realistically, my salary will only go up by a few 100, like maybe 400 tops.

 

I have worked for many organizations, but salary is basically the same everywhere, while mental health, youthwork and general social work, have different agreements, it won't differ more than like 50 euro. Which is for a reason, you need the same qualifications and all that.

 

My relationship to money has changed in some ways, but not that many.

I come from a poor family where we basically never had savings, and I've had longer periods of debt.

As a student I basically never had any money, and aside from some late payments, I never had any real issues. I'm still paying back a part of my student debt (most is paid by the government, in my case it was 20k that I had to pay), but that's done quite soon. Paying basically no interest btw.

 

When I finished college, I started to make so money, nothing major, but for someone always living cheap, I was able to save up, and slowly but surely I started to get all the things I needed/wanted, and over the years I started investing in quality products more and more. So I'm at a point where we basically don't need to replace anything in our house for the foreseeable future.

 

This leaves us with money to go on some vacations, although we generally do them fairly cheap, go out to dinner etc. 

 

So my lifestyle has changed in the sense that I use much more money on fun things, we are still very conscience of how much things cost. Vacations cost us around 150 euro a day for both of us, and we usually don't go for longer than 4-5 days. Restaurants usually costs us like 35 each, which used to be less before mass inflation.

 

Now inflation + a baby has definitely reduced the amount we can save up, but we still do fine. In the end it's all about spending less, than what's coming in.

 

That said, me hitting that salary ceiling, is a bit worrying. I understand it, I don't disagree with it, but having a child, my gf working 4 hours less, me probably going back 4 hours as well in september, with the addition of everything being so much more expensive, does really make me realize that the amount we save each month, is only going down for the next 4 years. After that I will get a bump in salary, but I will immediately hit a new ceiling again.

 

It won't change my career choice, I will keep working in this field, there is nothing else I would want to do. Maybe I will do something on the side someday, find a niche in time where I can jump in, like 3d modeling and printing was a few years ago, but I am happy where I am.

 

Btw what really helps, is that everyone around me is in a similar situation. Our direct family makes less than us, our friends are either very similar, or a little more, but 2x at the very most. And while it shouldn't matter, it helps that in our own little world, no one has that lifestyle that makes you think about making different choices. They are not driving up in a 100k+ car, spending 10k+ on a vacation, living in a 1 mill+ home or whatever. They are like us.

It's great to hear that you have a plan set in place to achieve a degree and become more qualified to take on other work. Apologies for perhaps not understanding one thing - the salary increase that comes with it. You mentioned a few hundred euro increase in pay. Did you mean per week, pay period, etc.? I think it would definitely pay off to explore other niches and interests during your free time.

 

Also great to hear that you have found stability in your lifestyle as it relates to the people you surround yourself with. Lifestyle creep is a real thing and can definitely result in unhealthy spending habits, ultimately leading to an impact on mental health, financial stability, and so on. Ultimately, if you are content with your job and don't want to move around, that definitely speaks to your level of happiness with what you do in one way or another.

[Radium_Angel]

Our workplace is a gov't agency and is toxic as all get out.

The IT dept in particular are a bunch of power-tripping SOBs. Refusing to solve even the most simple of issues in a reasonable amount of time, and you can flat out forget about complex issues being done any time this year.

Everyone is afraid of them, and they answer to no one. You can see the fear in people's faces when one shows up to their room. It's terrible!

Worse still, they are considered "essential personnel" meaning it's impossible to get them fired, or transferred or even disciplined.

They get paid 3x what everyone else does, and basically sit around all day playing video games, or reading comics, or just generally doing nothing.

 

Thankfully, I'm in that IT group, so I really love the high pay 

[YellowJersey]

So long as I'm making enough, I'll take good work environment over higher pay. No sense making big bucks if every second of every day makes you want to kill yourself (this is why I'm not practicing law)