LTT's view on the ATH-M50x

HenrySalayne · May 2, 2023

24 minutes ago, Neroon said:

Heard of paraphrasing? Next time I will say 'very well respected, good, and used by LMG'. Obviously you completely missed the point I made, because I used a different word, even though the argument is 100% the same. Good job to get the point.

You have no point. Paraphrasing is not supposed to change the meaning.

You have the following statements (paraphrased):

'well respected and popular' in general
'used by David and on the WAN show, they're good headphones'
'uncomfortable warm, your mileage may vary' by Adam
"they suck, they are uncomfortable" by Linus and Luke
'generally popular for studio use <-> popular in studios for being affordable and disposable' by Dan, Linus and Luke

If you think you have uncovered a giant contradiction, I'm sorry to inform you that all of these statements can coexist in the same realm. If you think the tl;dr was "they suck", you should ask yourself why nobody at LMG bothered to replace the headphones so far.

I recently tried a pair of Austrian Audio Hi-X60 and I returned them. Not because they were horrible headphones, but because they were uncomfortable on my head. I had no complaints about the sound (I had a broken 2.5 mm jack with a loose contact as well, but that was not the reason to return them).

rice guru · May 2, 2023

On 4/30/2023 at 7:24 AM, Neroon said:

Did you answer this question? No you didn't

I did, sadly you don't think nuance is a good answer.

Neroon · May 3, 2023

16 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

You have no point. Paraphrasing is not supposed to change the meaning.

You have the following statements (paraphrased):

'well respected and popular' in general

'used by David and on the WAN show, they're good headphones'

'uncomfortable warm, your mileage may vary' by Adam

"they suck, they are uncomfortable" by Linus and Luke

'generally popular for studio use <-> popular in studios for being affordable and disposable' by Dan, Linus and Luke

If you think you have uncovered a giant contradiction, I'm sorry to inform you that all of these statements can coexist in the same realm. If you think the tl;dr was "they suck", you should ask yourself why nobody at LMG bothered to replace the headphones so far.

I recently tried a pair of Austrian Audio Hi-X60 and I returned them. Not because they were horrible headphones, but because they were uncomfortable on my head. I had no complaints about the sound (I had a broken 2.5 mm jack with a loose contact as well, but that was not the reason to return them).

2 things can be true, yet give the completely wrong impression.

Say both you and your neighbour have the same car. You love it, you think it's the absolute best car you've ever driven, had zero technical or other issues with it, and you would buy another one if it broke.

You neighbour thinks it's absolute trash, it keeps breaking on him, he finds the seats very uncomfortable, hates the layout of the dashboard, and can't wait to save up enough to replace it. Assume you know all about your neighbours opinion.

A family comes to visit you, who happens to be in the market for a new car, and asks if it's any good. And you tell them how you love it, never breaks down, and it's the absolute best car you've ever driven. You also point to your neighbours house and say: "He has one as well, drives it every day, these cars are fantastic"

Everything you said was true, you voiced your opinion, your neighbour does have that car, and he drives it everyday.

Now that family member will absolutely very likely assume, that your neighbour is at least positive about the car, because you are, you are making specific claims about your experience, and why would you neighbour still drive it if it was bad? Better said, they would also assume that if your neighbour did have bad experiences, that you would tell them, because you wouldn't want your family member to buy a car that has bad experiences, right?

And this is a real thing, this isn't some made up shit that doesn't happen. We all know these stories about how cars, or any other products, are amazing, when in reality they aren't. They may not have it very long, they might use it in a certain way that isn't an issue, like for example some cars will have much more problems if only driven short distances compared to others, it can be for whom the car is made, like my gf has an Honda Insight with a digital speedometer, which she can't see properly no matter how she puts the seat, my friends wife had the same with a Honda Civic, that has nearly the same dash, she also couldn't see it, they are both quite short and never had that issue in other cars. So while me and my friend like the dash, they hate it. If someone short asked me about the car, I would tell them that, but others might not, even if they know it.

This creates an issue though, because some people will make their decisions based on the opinions of others, so if they assume they get the whole story, that when other people are referenced, that they will share a similar experience, because again, if they hated it, you would assume the person sharing their experience, would mention that it's highly personal and that they know others who dislike it, you create a situation where people make bad decisions.

Now you might argue that they should do more research, check other resources, especially when buying something like a car. But you can definitely argue that here as well. The thing is that there are a few problems on that.

First of all, unlike someone sharing their individual experience as a regular owner of a car, Short Circuit/LMG is a professional tech company where people have used hundreds of headphones and make videos to tell you about their experience, so you expect the opinion of professionals. And sure there are better sites/channels out there, they are still professionals in that space.

Second, the user has no way to find out what Linus and Luke think of the headphone. I happen to stumble upon in an older WAN Show, almost no one will know about their dislike of it, and Adam likely didn't either (but that's besides the point), so it's not like they will ever be able to check with them, if they actually like them or not, and can only make the assumption that if Adam states they are 'good, well respected and used by LMG', then showing Linus and Luke, that they must have some kind of similar opinion, because why would they use them if they dislike them (which is a question you rightfully asked, and I wonder as well, because come on, it's a professional company, why keep using it?). and remember, disliking is not the same as saying there isn't any better.

Third, the popularity was mentioned, which makes finding reliable info that much harder to find, I think they mention this on the WAN Show as well. But if you are always used to 50 dollar crap, these are gonna be amazing. It's like those Apple fanboys who say: "Apple is the greatest, my iPhone and Macbook as so much better than that Android phone and Windows laptop that I used to have", but failing to mention they paid 4x the price of those products.

So all these people buy these popular headphones, because their favourite streamer or whatever got it, and well they are the best headphones they ever used. And like that owner of that car, they got little to no comparisons, they haven't tested 20 others in the same price range.

And lastly they have arguably the responsibility to mention things that are not favourable. If a private owner wants to brag about their car, that's their thing, hell from most people we expect it, because very few people would admit their choice isn't the best ever.

Now with these kinds of videos, even though they are shorter, even though they aren't as in depth, you still expect them to mention if their own experience, isn't universal. This is something they typically do, if someone has had bad experiences they know about, they will mention it.

So this comes back down to the argument that they use these a lot at LMG, combine that with his favourable review, the only assumption 1 can make, is that they are indeed liked by at least a good amount of LMG members, including Linus and Luke, because like you said, why haven't they replaced them?

Now Adam is very likely not as experienced with headphones, had Linus or Dan done this video, the conclusion would have likely been very different. Is that a bad thing? You could argue that, I'm guessing someone like Dan will be negative about quite a few products, that other people are satisfied with, and the same can be said about Linus, although I do think that in the audio space, Dan is likely to be more critical. But due to the inclusion of the usage by Linus and Luke, he absolutely put the thought in peoples minds, that at least 2 critical thinking people, look favourable upon them.

On top of that, had Adam known this, my guess is that he would have either added a snippet about their views on it, or would have just left it out altogether.
And this is also the issue when you take any reference or info that are not your own experiences, because do you know enough about their views to mention them?

Also at what point does something become misleading. What if AT makes a page that quotes Adam with a text under it "Adam - Linus Media Group" and directly under it a picture of Linus and Luke from the WAN Show with the text "Linus and Luke using this for hours every week on the WAN Show - Linus Media Group".

It would become completely misleading.

Again, I know you want to argue if something is factually right or not, but that argument is completely irrelevant in this discussion. This is about whether people will think Linus and Luke like them or not, after seeing that Short Circuit video. Not whether you can get a politician out of some controversy with some "yeah but technically..."

rice guru · May 3, 2023

< removed by moderation >

8 hours ago, Neroon said:

First of all, unlike someone sharing their individual experience as a regular owner of a car, Short Circuit/LMG is a professional tech company where people have used hundreds of headphones and make videos to tell you about their experience, so you expect the opinion of professionals. And sure there are better sites/channels out there, they are still professionals in that space.

And like every review channel you as a consumer have to be knowledgeable about them. I myself at this moment would never watch Linus tech tips or any of his channels for serious audio reviews. It's simply not their wheel house. To give you much truly detailed product reviews on audio in the future? With the lab maybe.

But even among reviewers you should be picky in general. Linus has never been the greatest at proper high analysis videos. What LTT as a group is Great at is more surface level beginner content that allows you just a peak below the veil into deeper tech. If you want deeper content you move on from LTT as they won't show you the full story you want harder facts and I formation about pc parts? Go to gamers nexus. You want to know more about a specific headphone the LTT showed you go fin a channel or website or forum that specializes in audio to tell you about it. LTT for the most part has always been about entertaining the viewer while informing them about products. While you claim they are professionals in the space sure they get paid to review product that is basically what a professional reviewer means. Just cause someone is professional doesn't mean they are good at what they are professional at. Even professionals have specialties. Any professional who claims to know everything in their field should not be trusted. I work in geo chemistry..meaning I know a lot about rocks,elements, and chemistry. Now does that mean I'm knowledgeable in all aspects of chemistry? Absolutely not. LTT specializes in entertaining viewers while informing them in a easy way to understand. Linus himself even said in the past before Labs ever existed that he himself didn't like doing audio reviews even though it's a thing he enjoyed cause there is just too much to go over and it's so highly subjective.

Your analogy doesn't work cause who goes to someone asks if a car is good seriously considers their opinion without considering the opinion of others. And not analyzing potential biases in the person giving the opinion. It's a called proper research and one should do that. Anyone who buys a bad product just cause one person on the internet said it was good regardless of who that person is asking to get burned.

Edited May 3, 2023 by LogicalDrm