XMP crashes: Patriot Viper 4000mhz two 16gb (2x8) kits

[Young_Itachi]

Hey y’all!

I know similar threads exist around several forums, but I can’t find anyone with this specific issue:
 

My specs:

-intel 13600k

-EVGA 3080 FTW3

-32gb 4000mhz Patriot Viper PVS416G400C9K (two kits)

-MSI Z790P Pro DDR4 

-EVGA GQ 850gold 

Latest drivers and bios as of 12/26/22

 

picked up two 4000mhz 16gb (2x8) kits off Craigslist.

They worked in his system at 4000mhz ( i9 9900k so it’s older than mine and I assumed it’d work with what I read online) but I can’t get ahold of the guy anymore to find his settings.

 

one kit (matching serial numbers in A2/B2) works just fine with XMP.

two kits crashes at ANYTHING other than stock 2133mhz.

—crashes aren’t always at startup, at 3200mhz (G1 133mhz ref) I can use it UNTIL I use more than 8gb. Once I exceed that it immediately crashes. 
Otherwise nothing else will even start up.

 

MSI Memory Try It function seems to just keep sending my pc into a boot loop until either a CMOS clear or sometimes just a reseat with one kit (rather than two)

one possible solution I saw was to adjust memory controller voltage up to 1.35 but it’s already there when it’s set to auto, so I don’t think it’s that. 
 

timing is advertised as 19-19-19-39 at CL19, saw someone suggest loosening timings since two kits might cause issues? But I’m unsure how to go about that and can’t find a guide that makes sense.

 

does anyone have any suggestions? 

thanks!!

[RONOTHAN##]

I will preface this by saying 4 DIMMs on 12/13th gen Intel isn't really optimal and they can have issues like these from time to time.

 

7 minutes ago, Young_Itachi said:

—crashes aren’t always at startup, at 3200mhz (G1 133mhz ref) I can use it UNTIL I use more than 8gb. Once I exceed that it immediately crashes. 

This gives me a slight idea of what might be going wrong. Samsung B die (what those 4000 CL19-19-19 based memory kits are running) has the tendency that once it gets above a certain memory voltage to get incredibly unstable when RAM usage exceeds a certain amount, it's to the point that the XOC guys who are trying to run settings like 4800 CL14 and the like are limiting the amount of RAM in Windows to something like 2-3GB in order to get the settings stable at the ~2V necessary to hit them. What might be happening is the latest BIOS for that board might be broke with 4 DIMMs, so when you try to enable XMP it runs a crazy amount of voltage into those sticks that's enough to crash it as you start using more than 8GB of RAM. To be clear, this is a shot in the dark and unlikely to actually be what's happening, but it's easy enough to check for by just looking at HWiNFO64 for the DRAM voltage and making sure it's not trying to run something like 1.7V into the memory for whatever reason. 

 

15 minutes ago, Young_Itachi said:

one possible solution I saw was to adjust memory controller voltage up to 1.35 but it’s already there when it’s set to auto, so I don’t think it’s that. 

There are 2-3 different memory controller voltages on 13th gen though, there's VCCSA, CPU VDDQ, and the PLL voltages. Running dual rank B die at 4000 CL19 Gear 1 will require relatively high values for all of them, though do note that they all sweet spot pretty hard, so play with them and see if they help get things slightly stable. You can also try increasing the DRAM voltage to something like 1.45V to see if that should help, anything under 1.5V VDIMM should be perfectly safe for long term use with no active cooling, and 1.55V should be fine with active cooling. 

 

18 minutes ago, Young_Itachi said:

timing is advertised as 19-19-19-39 at CL19, saw someone suggest loosening timings since two kits might cause issues?

19-19-19-39 is tight, but it's not that tight for B die, especially at "only" 4000MT/s, especially since there are people running 4000 CL14-15-15-28 with dual rank B die on Alder Lake/Raptor Lake. It's unlikely these are causing the issues, though if you want to you need to head into the advanced memory tab and loosed out the primary timings to something like 20-30-30-50

[TheDankKoosh]

24 minutes ago, Young_Itachi said:

snip

With aggressive ddr4 settings like 4ghz on raptor lake you're going to need to adjust VDD2/TX, SA voltage and VCCIO to stabilize at that speed

VDD2/TX/Q (don't remember what it's called on MSI boards) 1.4v 
SA 1.35v
VCCIO 1.3v 

These settings should stabilize that kit, since you're running b-die I would highly suggest tuning primary and subtimings for maximum performance

 

You should be able to more or less copy my settings (keeping speed at 4000) only changes should be primaries at 16-16-16-32 and tCWL 14

I have 2 kits of this in my z490 rig and it runs like a dream, buildzoid has some terrific content for z690/z790 memory OC if you'd like to look into it further.

[Cyberat]

Used DDR4 instead of DDR5 but you want to push for faster speeds ?

Until the ratio changes, your +25% RAM speed will net you 2.5% better system performance, is it worth the pain ?

Why not buy DDR5 and run stock at higher than 4000mhz ???

A bump from 3200mhz to 5600mhz is around 80% increase in speed & 8% system performance, might be worth your money ?

[TheDankKoosh]

10 minutes ago, Cyberat said:

Used DDR4 instead of DDR5 but you want to push for faster speeds ?

Until the ratio changes, your +25% RAM speed will net you 2.5% better system performance, is it worth the pain ?

Why not buy DDR5 and run stock at higher than 4000mhz ???

A bump from 3200mhz to 5600mhz is around 80% increase in speed & 8% system performance, might be worth your money ?

How is he going to run DDR5 on a DDR4 board? Performance can largely be attributed to latency in non workstation applications anyhow, and a good kit of DDR4 b-die will run just as well as a 6000 kit of DDR5 in terms of latency at a lower price. There is 0 reason to swap if he already has the ram and the board on hand.

[Young_Itachi]

8 hours ago, Cyberat said:

Used DDR4 instead of DDR5 but you want to push for faster speeds ?

Until the ratio changes, your +25% RAM speed will net you 2.5% better system performance, is it worth the pain ?

Why not buy DDR5 and run stock at higher than 4000mhz ???

A bump from 3200mhz to 5600mhz is around 80% increase in speed & 8% system performance, might be worth your money ?

Yeahhh I wanted DDR5 but I built a PC for someone else and when I bought some used stuff I got the 32gb of DDR4 with it for super cheap, so it didn’t make sense to spend extra for a DDR5 mobo AND new ram when I upgraded a few months ago

[Young_Itachi]

9 hours ago, RONOTHAN## said:

I will preface this by saying 4 DIMMs on 12/13th gen Intel isn't really optimal and they can have issues like these from time to time.

 

This gives me a slight idea of what might be going wrong. Samsung B die (what those 4000 CL19-19-19 based memory kits are running) has the tendency that once it gets above a certain memory voltage to get incredibly unstable when RAM usage exceeds a certain amount, it's to the point that the XOC guys who are trying to run settings like 4800 CL14 and the like are limiting the amount of RAM in Windows to something like 2-3GB in order to get the settings stable at the ~2V necessary to hit them. What might be happening is the latest BIOS for that board might be broke with 4 DIMMs, so when you try to enable XMP it runs a crazy amount of voltage into those sticks that's enough to crash it as you start using more than 8GB of RAM. To be clear, this is a shot in the dark and unlikely to actually be what's happening, but it's easy enough to check for by just looking at HWiNFO64 for the DRAM voltage and making sure it's not trying to run something like 1.7V into the memory for whatever reason. 

 

There are 2-3 different memory controller voltages on 13th gen though, there's VCCSA, CPU VDDQ, and the PLL voltages. Running dual rank B die at 4000 CL19 Gear 1 will require relatively high values for all of them, though do note that they all sweet spot pretty hard, so play with them and see if they help get things slightly stable. You can also try increasing the DRAM voltage to something like 1.45V to see if that should help, anything under 1.5V VDIMM should be perfectly safe for long term use with no active cooling, and 1.55V should be fine with active cooling. 

 

19-19-19-39 is tight, but it's not that tight for B die, especially at "only" 4000MT/s, especially since there are people running 4000 CL14-15-15-28 with dual rank B die on Alder Lake/Raptor Lake. It's unlikely these are causing the issues, though if you want to you need to head into the advanced memory tab and loosed out the primary timings to something like 20-30-30-50

That’s a lot to try out! Thank you for all the advice. 
 

one of the issues I’m encountering is that a lot of my voltages are set to auto, and there’s no option I’m seeing to set it to manual, just linked and adaptive modes. That’s definitely a motherboard specific thing so I’m going to read the documentation and google it a bit more but once I get that sorted out I’ll reply if any of those made a big change.

 

Thanks again!!

[Robchil]

4x DDR 4 should be more stabile at 3600 or 3200... try those speeds.. 

for some reason as mentioned above.. alot of the new boards has a problem with multiple kits at higher speeds, mostly seen on DDR5 boards that some plain don't support 4 chips for dual channel memory.. 

 

[Mark Kaine]

is the RAM on the QVL?

[RONOTHAN##]

3 hours ago, Young_Itachi said:

That’s a lot to try out! Thank you for all the advice. 
 

one of the issues I’m encountering is that a lot of my voltages are set to auto, and there’s no option I’m seeing to set it to manual, just linked and adaptive modes. That’s definitely a motherboard specific thing so I’m going to read the documentation and google it a bit more but once I get that sorted out I’ll reply if any of those made a big change.

 

Thanks again!!

On MSI boards generally the options for the couple of voltages are Override, Offset, and Adaptive. Generally selecting Override should give you a new menu item for setting the voltage manually. 

 

For a linked/unlinked mode though, that sounds like a carryover from DDR5 memory settings, which it wouldn't surprise me if MSI just left it in the DDR4 BIOS for whatever reason. I wouldn't really pay that much attention to it. 

[Cyberat]

Give up the 2.5% and run 3200mhz Stable.