Charger to stop charging automatically

[heimdali]

I would want a charger that turns off the charging once the battery has reached a certain percentage, like 80% ...

 

[ZetZet]

Just now, heimdali said:

I would want a charger that turns off the charging once the battery has reached a certain percentage, like 80% ...

You can set that up on the device itself. But it's not really important anymore these days.

[heimdali]

2 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

You can set that up on the device itself. But it's not really important anymore these days.

Cool --- how come it's not important anymore?  It's not like they make devices the batteries can easily be replaced in like they should.

 

And I don't have any devices that would allow me to set this.  The charger needs to do it.

[ZetZet]

1 minute ago, heimdali said:

Cool --- how come it's not important anymore?  It's not like they make devices the batteries can easily be replaced in like they should.

 

And I don't have any devices that would allow me to set this.  The charger needs to do it.

Charger can't do it, there is no protocol for it anywhere. Charger is dumb, it just gives voltage and that's it. Android phones can set up maximum charge, some Windows laptops can do it. 

 

 

It's not important because battery management got good enough to not cook the battery by overcharging and the battery chemistry itself has improved to handle more and harsher charging cycles. 

[heimdali]

They need to work on that then, and chargers don't need to be dumb.  Just look at the chargers for car batteries or Lithium batteries used in cars and motorhomes.

 

None of the Android devices do it and the non-Android ones don't, either.  As far as I can tell, they load 100% full.  The Android devices do say 100% full even, the others don't and only have a LED turning green.  Now lots of places say you should keep your Lithium battery between about 20--80%, yet no charger and no device does it.  It's not surprising because they want us to buy new devices all the time.

 

[ZetZet]

5 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Just look at the chargers for car batteries or Lithium batteries used in cars and motorhomes.

Car chargers are dumb too. The battery management/charger is on the car.   The only thing car chargers do is tell the car how much power IT can pull without killing the charging network, either DC charger or at home. 

[heimdali]

14 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

Car chargers are dumb too. The battery management/charger is on the car.   The only thing car chargers do is tell the car how much power IT can pull without killing the charging network, either DC charger or at home. 

Are you referring to electric cars or common battery chargers and/or b2b chargers and/or so-called charging boosters or chargers used with solar panels or generators that were used in cars?  Even decades ago when ppl were charging nickel-cadmium batteries, the chargers weren't all dumb and with the dumb ones, the batteries didn't last long.

 

Lithium batteries like in cell phones also don't last long when simply charged, that much I have experienced.  I haven't experienced myself if it's better to stay between 20 and 80% or not and may never find out because it's too difficult to do.  Yet since there appears a lot of agreement about this, I sure do want a charger that does it like that.

 

[ZetZet]

4 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Are you referring to electric cars or common battery chargers and/or b2b chargers and/or so-called charging boosters or chargers used with solar panels?  Even decades ago when ppl were charging nickel-cadmium batteries, the chargers weren't all dumb and with the dumb ones, the batteries didn't last long.

 

Lithium batteries like in cell phones also don't last long when simply charged, that much I have experienced.  I haven't experienced myself if it's better to stay between 20 and 80% or not and may never find out because it's too difficult to do.  Yet since there appears a lot of agreenment about this, I sure do want a charger that does it like that.

 

I expected you to talk about electric cars because they do have battery management (on the car). Normal cars with gel and acid batteries are by far the dumbest, the generator just spins and gives ~14V the whole time. It's just that those batteries can't be overcharged. 

 

Nickel-cadmium chargers are usually also extremely dumb, they just trickle charge with current limit and those batteries can sit forever on a trickle charger, that's why the charging takes so long on them. My guess is that with the "bad" chargers you experienced is that they just pumped in more current to charge faster, which in turn killed the batteries faster. 

 

The only chargers that do have battery management inside them are the hobby Li-Po chargers. But that's because those batteries usually have ZERO protection beyond a thermal-fuse

[Takumidesh]

28 minutes ago, heimdali said:

They need to work on that then, and chargers don't need to be dumb

The charger that you are thinking of is inside the device. the part you are referring to is no more than a power supply.

 

The device itself does the negotiations for how much power it wants to draw.

[Electronics Wizardy]

26 minutes ago, heimdali said:

They need to work on that then, and chargers don't need to be dumb.  Just look at the chargers for car batteries or Lithium batteries used in cars and motorhomes.

 

None of the Android devices do it and the non-Android ones don't, either.  As far as I can tell, they load 100% full.  The Android devices do say 100% full even, the others don't and only have a LED turning green.  Now lots of places say you should keep your Lithium battery between about 20--80%, yet no charger and no device does it.  It's not surprising because they want us to buy new devices all the time.

 

The charger for basically all consumer electronics is in the device, not the brick that plugs into the wall. The charger just supplies a constant voltage and a max current to the device. The device monitors the battery and determines how charging should be done and monitors the battery. Electric cars work like this too.

 

I know many devices support setting this is software, and the apple devices should be able to do this automatically.

 

 

[heimdali]

Just now, ZetZet said:

I expected you to talk about electric cars because they do have battery management (on the car).

I don't know exactly what electric cars do.  Since their batteries are so expensive that the car is totaled when the battery is dead, I can only assume that either the charger or some other device makes sure that the batteries last as long as they can.

 

I don't have an electric car, and none of the devices I have don't seem to stop charging until their batteries are full.  It would make a lot of sense to make the chargers smart so that not every device has to have all the electronics required for good charging.

Just now, ZetZet said:

Normal cars with gel and acid batteries are by far the dumbest, the generator just spins and gives ~14V the whole time. It's just that those batteries can't be overcharged. 

They don't do that anymore.  It's a big hassle when you need power in your car, like your motorhome.

Just now, ZetZet said:

 

Nickel-cadmium chargers are usually also extremely dumb, they just trickle charge with current limit and those batteries can sit forever on a trickle charger, that's why the charging takes so long on them. My guess is that with the "bad" chargers you experienced is that they just pumped in more current to charge faster, which in turn killed the batteries faster. 

They claimed to have all kinds of ways to improve charging.  I haven't verified if they actually did what they claimed.  The nickel-cadmium batteries suck even worse than the non-rechargable ones.

 

[Electronics Wizardy]

3 minutes ago, heimdali said:

I don't have an electric car, and none of the devices I have don't seem to stop charging until their batteries are full.  It would make a lot of sense to make the chargers smart so that not every device has to have all the electronics required for good charging.

13 minutes ago, ZetZet said:

The charger in the device can do this. and many cars and electronics can customize this. But many companies likely don't do this by default otherwise they would get complaints that the battery isn't charging fully.

 

But the wall plug is normally just a standard voltage. As all the devices have different battery cells, its much better to have the charging logic in the device that in a wall charger.

[ZetZet]

3 minutes ago, heimdali said:

I don't have an electric car, and none of the devices I have don't seem to stop charging until their batteries are full.

But that's the key part. They are never full. You the user see a 100%, but the safety margin is on top of that already. Same with 0%. That's why the phone still shows you something on the screen after it hits 0%, it's not at 0.

[Takumidesh]

5 minutes ago, heimdali said:

They don't do that anymore.  It's a big hassle when you need power in your car, like your motorhome.

Yes they do, Even electric cars, just charge a regular 12v battery the same way.(EDIT: for the accessory battery, not the li-ion drive batteries)

 

Gas cars charge the battery by using an 'alternator' which is just a generator being turned by the engine.

[heimdali]

5 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

The charger for basically all consumer electronics is in the device, not the brick that plugs into the wall. The charger just supplies a constant voltage and a max current to the device. The device monitors the battery and determines how charging should be done and monitors the battery. Electric cars work like this too.

 

I know many devices support setting this is software, and the apple devices should be able to do this automatically.

 

 

I haven't seen any device that would support this.  Leave your cell phone plugged in sitting on your desk for 6 weeks or so, and the battery will be empty after a couple hours when unplugged when it should last at least two days.  Obviously, charging has destroyed it.

 

[heimdali]

Just now, ZetZet said:

But that's the key part. They are never full. You the user see a 100%, but the safety margin is on top of that already. Same with 0%. That's why the phone still shows you something on the screen after it hits 0%, it's not at 0.

I've only seen phones that go out before it says 0%.  And see above ...

[Takumidesh]

1 minute ago, heimdali said:

I haven't seen any device that would support this.  Leave your cell phone plugged in sitting on your desk for 6 weeks or so, and the battery will be empty after a couple hours when unplugged when it should last at least two days.  Obviously, charging has destroyed it.

This is hearsay.

[heimdali]

1 minute ago, Takumidesh said:

Yes they do, Even electric cars, just charge a regular 12v battery the same way.

 

Gas cars charge the battery by using an 'alternator' which is just a generator being turned by the engine.

No, they don't do that anymore since they have to be compliant to Euro 6 regulations.

[heimdali]

Just now, Takumidesh said:

This is hearsay.

No, that's own experience.  You're welcome to try it yourself.

[Takumidesh]

Just now, heimdali said:

No, they don't do that anymore since they have to be compliant to Euro 6 regulations.

So what do they do? educate me.

 

How do you charge a 12v automotive battery?

[ZetZet]

3 minutes ago, heimdali said:

I haven't seen any device that would support this.  Leave your cell phone plugged in sitting on your desk for 6 weeks or so, and the battery will be empty after a couple hours when unplugged when it should last at least two days.  Obviously, charging has destroyed it.

Your phones must have been really old. Last two Android phones I had would lose charge sitting on a charger and then trickle back up again. Laptops stop charging completely when full.

 

 

Actually I still have my Nokia 7 plus which I charged every night leaving it plugged in the whole time. Battery is still fine in it after more than 2 years.

[Electronics Wizardy]

15 minutes ago, heimdali said:

I haven't seen any device that would support this.  Leave your cell phone plugged in sitting on your desk for 6 weeks or so, and the battery will be empty after a couple hours when unplugged when it should last at least two days.  Obviously, charging has destroyed it.

 

Most lithium chargers will stop charging when the battery is full in devices. They don't tell the user this normally, but onces the battery is full the battery is basically unlugged from the rest of the system. 100% SOC isn't great for the cells, but it isn't that bad.

 

6 weeks is way too short of a time frame for this. I have seen many devices that spend basically their whole life plugged in with still decent battery life.

 

 

[heimdali]

Just now, Takumidesh said:

So what do they do? educate me.

 

How do you charge a 12v automotive battery?

They are designed such that when you stop your car, the engine switches off to save fuel if the electronics figure it's save enough to turn off the engine.  When you press the clutch, the engine starts automatically.  What they do with automatic transmissions I don't know, but those have it as well.  That requires them to put two batteries into your car (at least in some cases) to prevent the starter battery from being drained too much while the car is sitting in traffic with the engine turned off.  Since they have it designed to save fuel, they have a magnetic clutch on the alternator pulley which allows the electronics to turn off the alternator during driving.  When delecrating, using the breaking power of the engine, the alternator clutch engages (air condition, too) and the alternator first charges the starter battery, which of course doesn't take long.  After that, it charges the 2nd battery which powers the heater fan, interior lights, power outlets, probably the exteriour lights and whatnot.  For some reasons I'm not sure about, they charge the 2nd battery to maybe only 70% --- the idea is probably that they may save a couple drops of fuel that way because it leaves more room to store energy from breaking instead of having to run the alternator to charge it.  If required, like when switching the electrical windscreen heater, they do run the alternator because that heater draws a lot of power and the engine keeps running.

 

When the batteries are full and you're driving and not decelerating, the alternator is either switched off entirely or its output is being limited. I can see the voltage go down to about 13.1V.  That used to be 13.9V with the old alternators.  What they definitely not do is keep charging all the time like they used to.  It's kinda overdone, but when you consider that alternator efficiency in cars was about only 54% (dunno if that got better, too.  Bosh came up with more efficient alternators for trucks years ago, but IIRC they were rather expensive.) and these alternators easily crank out 200A and about 60A even at idle, that's some fuel that might be wasted, or saved.  Also, cars use more electricity than they used to.

 

So far, that works fine --- until you need electricity from your batteries, like for running your laptop or lights when the engine isn't running.  The outlets you get to use give you no more than 12.4V when the engine is off, and that goes down to 12.1V and it doesn't take long before power is switched off altogether so that the battery doesn't get damaged (because I installed a battery guard).  Most of the time, it's enough for what I need, so I'm undecided if I'm going to change anything.  It sure annoys me that I have to haul around a 2nd battery which is almost empty all the time.  (I always disable the automatic turn off of the engine because it's extremely annoying and creates more wear than it could ever make up for by saving fuel, and use it only when I stop for a while.  This something I really I don't need, but they have to do it for emissions ...  I wonder that all the extra weight of the dead battery never bothered them.  But then, cars nowadays are designed by people who don't have the driving experience they need to have to be able to design cars.)

 

Since you can't just charge a battery anymore with that system, some manufacturers have invented chargers that use a 12V input and make it so that the generator doesn't switch before they charged the 2nd (or 3rd or Nth) battery.  Check them out and you'll find that these chargers aren't dumb at all and use fancy charging curves, and some can be adjusted to different types of batteries requiring different charging curves and different voltages.

 

Likewise, you can get battery chargers with all bells and whistles that plug into the normal 240V power supply you have at home and at camping places.  Some people put solar panels on their vehicles so that can be independent from external power sources, and you can get chargers for that as well, of course with bells and whistles, too.

 

If you want a "classic" battery charger, you can get one for 50 that has fancy charging curves and knows different types of batteries, and it does tell you when the battery is full and automatically stops loading when it is.  I have one around ...

 

You can probably still get a dump charger, the type with ridiculously thin cables and which likely will set your place on fire because it's made in China and won't stop loading ever and let your battery boil over, but why would anyone buy such junk.

 

[Takumidesh]

you are describing an alternator clutch, which all alternators have...

 

All of the start/stop stuff on new cars doesn't change the fact that the alternator is still charging the battery.

 

9 minutes ago, heimdali said:

Since you can't just charge a battery anymore with that system

yes you can?

 

You are also describing additional auxiliary battery systems, with custom setups, which of course is different than a regular car.

 

All modern gas powered cars charge the 12v batteries with an alternator. I don't even get what you are trying to say here.

 

[heimdali]

1 hour ago, ZetZet said:

Your phones must have been really old. Last two Android phones I had would lose charge sitting on a charger and then trickle back up again. Laptops stop charging completely when full.

I have one I had to recently get because I have to be able to receive emergency calls.  It's practically new, bought 4 months or so ago, and runs Android 12.  There is no way to set the phone to stop charging at 80% or anywhere else, it always charges to 100%.

1 hour ago, ZetZet said:

Actually I still have my Nokia 7 plus which I charged every night leaving it plugged in the whole time. Battery is still fine in it after more than 2 years.

Only two years isn't long at all.  You can probably get lucky.  I don't know yet how all the batteries that are not replacable will last because I don't have these devices long enough yet.  It sucks that they aren't replacable, and building things like that needs to be forbidden.  Everyone pretends that the resources will last indefinitely when it comes to producing stuff, and on the other hand, everyone claims that we must protect our environment and must not waste the resources, yet nobody is doing anything about it.

 

I would have greatly prefered to buy a phone that has a replacable battery, but the cheapest one cost twice as much.  So screw the enviroment; I'm old enough that it doesn't really matter to me anymore.  I can't help it, it's the way things are set up nowadays, and I don't like that.