4090 + 13900K is it worth?

[Charlie Wolf]

Budget (including currency): 4500€

Country:  Spain

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: High end Gaming

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc): 

 

PCPartPicker Part List: https://es.pcpartpicker.com/list/GXFF3y

CPU: Intel Core i9-13900KF 3 GHz 24-Core Processor  (€719.31 @ LIFE Informatica) 
CPU Cooler: ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 360 A-RGB 48.8 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  (€127.01 @ Amazon Espana) 
Motherboard: Asus PRIME Z690-A ATX LGA1700 Motherboard  (€287.80 @ Neobyte) 
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5200 CL40 Memory  (€348.90 @ Amazon Espana) 
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  (€275.95 @ Amazon Espana) 
Video Card: Zotac GAMING Trinity GeForce RTX 4090 24 GB Video Card  (€2049.90 @ PC Componentes) 
Case: Lian Li O11 Dynamic EVO ATX Mid Tower Case  (€202.35 @ Amazon Espana) 
Power Supply: Corsair HX1200 Platinum 1200 W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  (€243.98 @ Amazon Espana) 
Case Fan: ARCTIC P12 PST A-RGB 0dB 48.8 CFM 120 mm Fans 3-Pack  (€44.51 @ Amazon Espana) 
Case Fan: ARCTIC P12 PST A-RGB 0dB 48.8 CFM 120 mm Fans 3-Pack  (€44.51 @ Amazon Espana) 
Total: €4344.22
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-10-25 01:45 CEST+0200

My big question is that if it is worth to buy this gaming rig.
Not because of money, just because I'm watching a lot of bad news about 4090 getting burned out on the power connector and i9 being hella hot and not worth on consumption.
But for the long run I prefer i9 for the extra cores and the 4090 for the extra performance looking at a long term view.

It is worth to buy or is it dangerous and premature at the moment?

 

[BiotechBen]

Unless you need to flex on people, the 4090 is unnecessary. If you need that much graphics horsepower, you need a Quadro level card.

 

As for 13900K, unless electricity is very cheap and you have substantial cooling ability, a 13700K is plenty.

[Charlie Wolf]

4 minutes ago, BiotechBen said:

Unless you need to flex on people, the 4090 is unnecessary. If you need that much graphics horsepower, you need a Quadro level card.

 

As for 13900K, unless electricity is very cheap and you have substantial cooling ability, a 13700K is plenty.

Yeah I'm not talking about needing, just wanted to buy the biggest performance now because I want to haha

My question is on the side of heat and danger, just watched a lot of people talking about 4090 heating up and burning and i9 being a huge problem on temps.

[Shimejii]

No its not worth it. Nobody needs a 4090 for just gaming, nobody needs a 13900k for gaming, its a waste of money and people who do it tend to be very showy people to try making themselves feel better about purchases. Its really just a bad idea to buy a 4090 unless you make money with it via a business, since if you are buying a 1600-2000$ GPU JUST for gaming, you are the type of person they want to manipulate to buy more of them as the newest card comes out.

 

 

There is no long term view that will make spending that amount of money on a GPU worth it for gaming.

[brob]

5 minutes ago, Charlie Wolf said:

My question is on the side of heat and danger, just watched a lot of people talking about 4090 heating up and burning and i9 being a huge problem on temps.

 

If one is running stock with spec power connectors and an appropriate CPU cooler there should be no problems. If one wants to OC make sure there is sufficient cooling performance available and a sufficiently robust PSU.

[dizmo]

If you're aiming for 4k gaming, it'd be a good rig, though honestly you'd be CPU bottlenecked so I'd just get a 13600k. Also, do you actually need 64GB of RAM? Very few people do. I consider myself a pretty heavy (aka lazy) multitasker, and I'll sometimes push into the 20GB range of RAM used. You can also save money on the SSD by going with a cheaper NVME drive. You won't notice a performance difference.

 

As for power consumption? If you're worried about paying for extra wattage, you're not well off enough to be buying a computer like the one listed.

 

I get what you're trying to do, but there's a lot of waste here that isn't going to gain you anything.

 

15 minutes ago, BiotechBen said:

Unless you need to flex on people, the 4090 is unnecessary. If you need that much graphics horsepower, you need a Quadro level card.

 

As for 13900K, unless electricity is very cheap and you have substantial cooling ability, a 13700K is plenty.

Not true, if you're gaming at 4k you're going to see pretty significant gains.

11 minutes ago, Shimejii said:

No its not worth it. Nobody needs a 4090 for just gaming, nobody needs a 13900k for gaming, its a waste of money and people who do it tend to be very showy people to try making themselves feel better about purchases. Its really just a bad idea to buy a 4090 unless you make money with it via a business, since if you are buying a 1600-2000$ GPU JUST for gaming, you are the type of person they want to manipulate to buy more of them as the newest card comes out.

 

There is no long term view that will make spending that amount of money on a GPU worth it for gaming.

Guess you've never played at 4k? I agree the CPU is kind of much for just a gaming rig, but the video card can make perfect sense.

People here are so focused on $5k being an insane amount for a computer; it's like they have no idea what other hobbies cost.

[BiotechBen]

1 minute ago, dizmo said:

Not true, if you're gaming at 4k you're going to see pretty significant gains.

CPU limited even with 13900K, it's a flex piece at the current moment. 4080 is going to be plenty.

 

2 minutes ago, dizmo said:

If you're aiming for 4k gaming, it'd be a good rig, though honestly you'd be CPU bottlenecked so I'd just get a 13600k.

 

[Shimejii]

27 minutes ago, dizmo said:

If you're aiming for 4k gaming, it'd be a good rig, though honestly you'd be CPU bottlenecked so I'd just get a 13600k. Also, do you actually need 64GB of RAM? Very few people do. I consider myself a pretty heavy (aka lazy) multitasker, and I'll sometimes push into the 20GB range of RAM used. You can also save money on the SSD by going with a cheaper NVME drive. You won't notice a performance difference.

 

As for power consumption? If you're worried about paying for extra wattage, you're not well off enough to be buying a computer like the one listed.

 

I get what you're trying to do, but there's a lot of waste here that isn't going to gain you anything.

 

Not true, if you're gaming at 4k you're going to see pretty significant gains.

Guess you've never played at 4k? I agree the CPU is kind of much for just a gaming rig, but the video card can make perfect sense.

People here are so focused on $5k being an insane amount for a computer; it's like they have no idea what other hobbies cost.

4k Gaming is Still dumb to me. Yes i know the 4090 is a MASSIVE uplift for 4k Gaming, the fact that you need a 1600$ GPU to make it run at a decent frame rate without shit like DLSS and such makes my point even more true for me personally. I will continue to say that people that can actually afford a proper 4k Monitor for gaming dont give a shit about what others think or care anything about being worth it or for "Value". 

 

I know quite a few hobbies and how expensive they are, and i often find them to be quite dumb and wasteful. I personally wont do it, if it doesnt hurt anyone be my guest spend all the money on it, but i do not have any sympathy when it ends up being the money pits they end up being and then they need to sell it because something happened sadly. Its a thing ive been seeing a ton on Hardware swap recently, where there are people that bought a 4090 and are trying to sell it to get their money back because "I realized i didnt need it and regret the impulsive and bad decision" Because in the end, you dont need this kind of GPU power for just gaming. Its a dumb purchase, and its just over priced. I want people to value their money and time, because in the end for some people 1600-2000$ is a month or two of paychecks, and to others its just a days worth of one, just for a GPU to give them momentary happiness, its important to me people just dont spend their money to spend it, i want them to honestly sit there and think is this actually worth it or is it just a  item i want due to external factors. 

 

The 4k Gaming argument only makes sense in the current Vaccum, as its the only new gen card out, if you cannot wait a month or two or more "Spoiler they can fucking wait just fine they are just dont" you should be able to get cards that are much cheaper that will offer most of the performance. Granted the 4080 is a awful value at 1200$ as well, if it was 800$ complete different arguement, but i still dont think the 4080 is worth it. People will still buy it because AMD is never going to be their choice in buying a GPU due to factors, so its sticking with NVidia even if the pricing makes 0 sense sadly. 

[Dedayog]

1 hour ago, Charlie Wolf said:

Yeah I'm not talking about needing, just wanted to buy the biggest performance now because I want to haha

My question is on the side of heat and danger, just watched a lot of people talking about 4090 heating up and burning and i9 being a huge problem on temps.

Then yes, it's worth it.  It's the best bang for buck video card in years.  You'll have the biggest d*ck on the block and chicks will flock.  

 

Yes, all that power generates heat.  How could it not?   But watch the videos and read the articles about people setting power profiles at 70% and losing single digit fps.  It's not all doom and gloom.

 

 

 

[Charlie Wolf]

8 hours ago, dizmo said:

If you're aiming for 4k gaming, it'd be a good rig, though honestly you'd be CPU bottlenecked so I'd just get a 13600k. Also, do you actually need 64GB of RAM? Very few people do. I consider myself a pretty heavy (aka lazy) multitasker, and I'll sometimes push into the 20GB range of RAM used. You can also save money on the SSD by going with a cheaper NVME drive. You won't notice a performance difference.

 

As for power consumption? If you're worried about paying for extra wattage, you're not well off enough to be buying a computer like the one listed.

 

I get what you're trying to do, but there's a lot of waste here that isn't going to gain you anything.

 

Not true, if you're gaming at 4k you're going to see pretty significant gains.

Guess you've never played at 4k? I agree the CPU is kind of much for just a gaming rig, but the video card can make perfect sense.

People here are so focused on $5k being an insane amount for a computer; it's like they have no idea what other hobbies cost.

Thanks this is kinda what I was looking for, I don't know why people seems a bit mad about my question.

Maybe I phrased it bad, but I was more worried about burning up and having some heat problems more than bills.

Yeah I'm very well aware that I'm aiming for a lot and I do not NEED any of that power in ram and processor or graphics card but it's just I've been for 10 years with low range and now I'm able to afford that without any problems so thanks!

[Charlie Wolf]

6 hours ago, Dedayog said:

Then yes, it's worth it.  It's the best bang for buck video card in years.  You'll have the biggest d*ck on the block and chicks will flock.  

 

Yes, all that power generates heat.  How could it not?   But watch the videos and read the articles about people setting power profiles at 70% and losing single digit fps.  It's not all doom and gloom.

 

 

 

Thanks, it's not because I want to brag to be honest.. it's more for myself but thanks anyways!

Just saw a lot of problems on reddit about card burning up on connector and I'm worried it can fuck up all the rig, I'll look into that !

[fAED]

Well, I see it as the car industry... can an Opel Corsa drive you to your destination? Yes. Can a Rolls-Royce drive you to that same location? Of course.

 

Understand where I'm getting to? - Do people need to own a Rolls-Royce to drive to their destination? - My answer is, perhaps not. I mean, it's a huge car, it costs your liver and will need tons of fuel, But yeah, you'll drive confortably and with a bunch of features that maybe you won't even use and everyone will look to your car.

 

There is nothing wrong to own a super car, but you can do the same with a budget-friendly option.

 

But like the owner of the Rolls-Royce, if you ask him why he owns that car, he will probably justify it and in the end, what matters is: Can you buy it? - Aren't you free to do it? - Sure!

[Rhinopkc]

Why would you buy the 13900KF after going full-tilt on everything else? Saving a few bucks on the iGPU seems like a bad decision when you can actually use it, even for things as simple as troubleshooting your 4090. 

[NF-A12x25]

20 hours ago, BiotechBen said:

CPU limited even with 13900K, it's a flex piece at the current moment. 4080 is going to be plenty.

No, it’ll be GPU limited. It would be CPU limited at 1080p or maybe 1440p

[setsakara]

I would say go for it if you're willing to sell a kidney and a lung

[Dedayog]

1 minute ago, setsakara said:

I would say go for it if you're willing to sell a kidney and a lung

Some people don't have to sell anything to be able to afford a 4090.  Sure, it's an epeen item and overkill for what most would use it for, but don't make the mistake that people can't afford it. 

 

Buy it if ya want it, as long as you understand what and why, do it.

 

 

 

[BiotechBen]

If performance per dollar is not a question, yeah go for it. If you want value for your purchase, you likely won't notice much of a difference with the 4080. The 40 series cards are beasts.

[Charlie Wolf]

10 hours ago, fAED said:

Well, I see it as the car industry... can an Opel Corsa drive you to your destination? Yes. Can a Rolls-Royce drive you to that same location? Of course.

 

Understand where I'm getting to? - Do people need to own a Rolls-Royce to drive to their destination? - My answer is, perhaps not. I mean, it's a huge car, it costs your liver and will need tons of fuel, But yeah, you'll drive confortably and with a bunch of features that maybe you won't even use and everyone will look to your car.

 

There is nothing wrong to own a super car, but you can do the same with a budget-friendly option.

 

But like the owner of the Rolls-Royce, if you ask him why he owns that car, he will probably justify it and in the end, what matters is: Can you buy it? - Aren't you free to do it? - Sure!

Thanks for this comment, I didn't really meant to flex on people.. just wanted to check opinions about temps and heat problems, because a lot of people are having huge problems with that

[shermn8r]

22 hours ago, Charlie Wolf said:

Budget (including currency): 4500€

Country:  Spain

Games, programs or workloads that it will be used for: High end Gaming

Other details (existing parts lists, whether any peripherals are needed, what you're upgrading from, when you're going to buy, what resolution and refresh rate you want to play at, etc): 

 

PCPartPicker Part List: https://es.pcpartpicker.com/list/GXFF3y

CPU: Intel Core i9-13900KF 3 GHz 24-Core Processor  (€719.31 @ LIFE Informatica) 
CPU Cooler: ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 360 A-RGB 48.8 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler  (€127.01 @ Amazon Espana) 
Motherboard: Asus PRIME Z690-A ATX LGA1700 Motherboard  (€287.80 @ Neobyte) 
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5200 CL40 Memory  (€348.90 @ Amazon Espana) 
Storage: Samsung 980 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive  (€275.95 @ Amazon Espana) 
Video Card: Zotac GAMING Trinity GeForce RTX 4090 24 GB Video Card  (€2049.90 @ PC Componentes) 
Case: Lian Li O11 Dynamic EVO ATX Mid Tower Case  (€202.35 @ Amazon Espana) 
Power Supply: Corsair HX1200 Platinum 1200 W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply  (€243.98 @ Amazon Espana) 
Case Fan: ARCTIC P12 PST A-RGB 0dB 48.8 CFM 120 mm Fans 3-Pack  (€44.51 @ Amazon Espana) 
Case Fan: ARCTIC P12 PST A-RGB 0dB 48.8 CFM 120 mm Fans 3-Pack  (€44.51 @ Amazon Espana) 
Total: €4344.22
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-10-25 01:45 CEST+0200

My big question is that if it is worth to buy this gaming rig.
Not because of money, just because I'm watching a lot of bad news about 4090 getting burned out on the power connector and i9 being hella hot and not worth on consumption.
But for the long run I prefer i9 for the extra cores and the 4090 for the extra performance looking at a long term view.

It is worth to buy or is it dangerous and premature at the moment?

 

If you plan on playing on anything less than 4k resolution its not worth it. Save some money and go down to a 13700k or even the 13600k with a 3080ti or 3090. 

[dizmo]

20 hours ago, Shimejii said:

4k Gaming is Still dumb to me. Yes i know the 4090 is a MASSIVE uplift for 4k Gaming, the fact that you need a 1600$ GPU to make it run at a decent frame rate without shit like DLSS and such makes my point even more true for me personally. I will continue to say that people that can actually afford a proper 4k Monitor for gaming dont give a shit about what others think or care anything about being worth it or for "Value". 

 

I know quite a few hobbies and how expensive they are, and i often find them to be quite dumb and wasteful. I personally wont do it, if it doesnt hurt anyone be my guest spend all the money on it, but i do not have any sympathy when it ends up being the money pits they end up being and then they need to sell it because something happened sadly. Its a thing ive been seeing a ton on Hardware swap recently, where there are people that bought a 4090 and are trying to sell it to get their money back because "I realized i didnt need it and regret the impulsive and bad decision" Because in the end, you dont need this kind of GPU power for just gaming. Its a dumb purchase, and its just over priced. I want people to value their money and time, because in the end for some people 1600-2000$ is a month or two of paychecks, and to others its just a days worth of one, just for a GPU to give them momentary happiness, its important to me people just dont spend their money to spend it, i want them to honestly sit there and think is this actually worth it or is it just a  item i want due to external factors. 

 

The 4k Gaming argument only makes sense in the current Vaccum, as its the only new gen card out, if you cannot wait a month or two or more "Spoiler they can fucking wait just fine they are just dont" you should be able to get cards that are much cheaper that will offer most of the performance. Granted the 4080 is a awful value at 1200$ as well, if it was 800$ complete different arguement, but i still dont think the 4080 is worth it. People will still buy it because AMD is never going to be their choice in buying a GPU due to factors, so its sticking with NVidia even if the pricing makes 0 sense sadly. 

While I can completely understand that stance, and if it's what you think you're more than welcome to that opinion. However the way you worded it is simply incorrect, and that's not a message you should be conveying. There are lots of people that would love to have a 4090, will buy one, and can easily afford it. To them, it's worth it. I know someone that bought 4. It's not a bad idea to purchase one unless it's beyond your financial means. Some people like the best of the best. You're not in that group, that's fine, but you should at least realize that there are people who have values other than yours.

 

Sure. That's your opinion, and one that's not shared by the people that enjoy said hobbies. Why are you trying to put your personal values on someone else's purchasing decision? You will always find people that buy something expensive and regret it, even if they can easily afford it. I have a friend who makes $200k+ a year, and he will still feel buyers remorse from time to time, even on smaller items. That's just that person's psyche, it doesn't make the product bad for the masses. If you really want to get down to it, why buy a PC at all? You can game on a console just fine. No need to spend all that money on a custom PC. That's basically the end point of your argument. If you don't go all the way there, then you're simply putting the goal posts exactly where you want to support your ideals. Not everyone is you. Not everyone has the same restrictions.

 

Your argument of money makes absolutely no sense, either. Sure, someone making $2,000 a month shouldn't buy a $1,600 GPU. I've said this many times myself. However you really need to realize that there are tons of people making substantially more than that, and for them, a $1,600 video card purchase is not at all a burden. You're arguing worth without having the correct context to apply to it.

 

The 4k argument makes sense if the OP is building a 4k gaming rig. Full stop. Doesn't matter if the 4090 is the only new card out or not, it will be top dog at 4k. Judging from his budget, he's looking to get the utmost of performance, and that's what the 4090 will provide. I don't think there will be price drops. AMD has already stated they can't compete with top end NVidia, and that's even if the OP wanted to go with AMD at all.

 

IMO you really need to take a look at how you answer posts like this. You could at least ask questions and dive a little deeper.

 

13 hours ago, Charlie Wolf said:

Thanks this is kinda what I was looking for, I don't know why people seems a bit mad about my question.

Maybe I phrased it bad, but I was more worried about burning up and having some heat problems more than bills.

Yeah I'm very well aware that I'm aiming for a lot and I do not NEED any of that power in ram and processor or graphics card but it's just I've been for 10 years with low range and now I'm able to afford that without any problems so thanks!

A lot of people on this forum seem to be price sensitive, and as a result get quite salty when people talk about high end hardware and large budgets.

 

Ahhh yes, fair. As long as the cables are installed correctly, then you're fine. It's where they get installed and you're not making proper contact where issues arise. If you're worried about it, it might be worth holding off for a bit to see what happens with the whole situation.

 

The GPU actually gives you better performance, having way too much RAM gets you absolutely nothing. Something to keep in mind. I'd drop it down to 32GB, and get a higher speed kit; this will actually get you more FPS most of the time.

10 hours ago, fAED said:

Well, I see it as the car industry... can an Opel Corsa drive you to your destination? Yes. Can a Rolls-Royce drive you to that same location? Of course.

 

Understand where I'm getting to? - Do people need to own a Rolls-Royce to drive to their destination? - My answer is, perhaps not. I mean, it's a huge car, it costs your liver and will need tons of fuel, But yeah, you'll drive confortably and with a bunch of features that maybe you won't even use and everyone will look to your car.

 

There is nothing wrong to own a super car, but you can do the same with a budget-friendly option.

 

But like the owner of the Rolls-Royce, if you ask him why he owns that car, he will probably justify it and in the end, what matters is: Can you buy it? - Aren't you free to do it? - Sure!

That comparison doesn't really make sense. It'd make more sense if you were comparing the Corsa to a Ferrari, and the time you get there makes for a better experience...since paying more gets you better FPS. You simply cannot do the same thing with a cheaper video card; you will not get the same performance.

1 hour ago, Rhinopkc said:

Why would you buy the 13900KF after going full-tilt on everything else? Saving a few bucks on the iGPU seems like a bad decision when you can actually use it, even for things as simple as troubleshooting your 4090. 

^ Exactly this. If I had the choice, I'd always get a CPU with an iGPU.

21 hours ago, BiotechBen said:

CPU limited even with 13900K, it's a flex piece at the current moment. 4080 is going to be plenty.

Interesting claim considering we haven't seen any performance metrics for it, other than the extremely limited snapshot Nvidia put out.

[Dedayog]

6 hours ago, dizmo said:

While I can completely understand that stance, and if it's what you think you're more than welcome to that opinion. However the way you worded it is simply incorrect, and that's not a message you should be conveying. There are lots of people that would love to have a 4090, will buy one, and can easily afford it. To them, it's worth it. I know someone that bought 4. It's not a bad idea to purchase one unless it's beyond your financial means. Some people like the best of the best. You're not in that group, that's fine, but you should at least realize that there are people who have values other than yours.

 

Sure. That's your opinion, and one that's not shared by the people that enjoy said hobbies. Why are you trying to put your personal values on someone else's purchasing decision? You will always find people that buy something expensive and regret it, even if they can easily afford it. I have a friend who makes $200k+ a year, and he will still feel buyers remorse from time to time, even on smaller items. That's just that person's psyche, it doesn't make the product bad for the masses. If you really want to get down to it, why buy a PC at all? You can game on a console just fine. No need to spend all that money on a custom PC. That's basically the end point of your argument. If you don't go all the way there, then you're simply putting the goal posts exactly where you want to support your ideals. Not everyone is you. Not everyone has the same restrictions.

 

Your argument of money makes absolutely no sense, either. Sure, someone making $2,000 a month shouldn't buy a $1,600 GPU. I've said this many times myself. However you really need to realize that there are tons of people making substantially more than that, and for them, a $1,600 video card purchase is not at all a burden. You're arguing worth without having the correct context to apply to it.

 

The 4k argument makes sense if the OP is building a 4k gaming rig. Full stop. Doesn't matter if the 4090 is the only new card out or not, it will be top dog at 4k. Judging from his budget, he's looking to get the utmost of performance, and that's what the 4090 will provide. I don't think there will be price drops. AMD has already stated they can't compete with top end NVidia, and that's even if the OP wanted to go with AMD at all.

 

IMO you really need to take a look at how you answer posts like this. You could at least ask questions and dive a little deeper.

 

A lot of people on this forum seem to be price sensitive, and as a result get quite salty when people talk about high end hardware and large budgets.

 

Ahhh yes, fair. As long as the cables are installed correctly, then you're fine. It's where they get installed and you're not making proper contact where issues arise. If you're worried about it, it might be worth holding off for a bit to see what happens with the whole situation.

 

The GPU actually gives you better performance, having way too much RAM gets you absolutely nothing. Something to keep in mind. I'd drop it down to 32GB, and get a higher speed kit; this will actually get you more FPS most of the time.

That comparison doesn't really make sense. It'd make more sense if you were comparing the Corsa to a Ferrari, and the time you get there makes for a better experience...since paying more gets you better FPS. You simply cannot do the same thing with a cheaper video card; you will not get the same performance.

^ Exactly this. If I had the choice, I'd always get a CPU with an iGPU.

Interesting claim considering we haven't seen any performance metrics for it, other than the extremely limited snapshot Nvidia put out.

Very well written and while I completely judge people who buy for "flex", I also understand and live in that world at times too.  I try to temper my judgement but it comes thru at times, and what you wrote highlights that for some of us.

 

Nicely said, Diz.