Can a VA monitor ever look color accurate and color rich?

[DSD27]

I have a wide gamut 120% sRGB VA monitor, VG27WQ. It obviously looks oversaturated, especially the red, it's almost like wine. The monitor doesn't have a sRGB clamp mode, so the only two ways to clamp the gamut to sRGB is by using the ICC profile provided with the ASUS driver (that only works in color managed applications), or using the NovideosRGB utility. In both cases, the oversaturation problem is solved, but a new problema appears, it now looks washed out.

You can say that someone just got used to the wide gamut, so then it finds sRGB to be washed out, but I don't think that is the case here.

I have another monitor, IPS 98% sRGB, Acer VG240YU bmiipx. The colors don't look oversaturated at all, the red is real red, not wine, but everything looks richer and more alive.

I think this is because of the already well known difference between IPS and VA. The only way for the VA to look almost as good as the IPS, is with the wide gamut inaccurate colors. I feel like all the numbers, 100% sRGB, 120% sRGB, 130% sRGB are just a scam on VA monitors.

Thoughts on this?

[xg32]

VA will never have as much color coverage as an ips, just ips will never match VA in contrast. For something close to 100% srgb id rather have VA for the contrast Since essentially every monitor should do 100% srgb, clamping it would be a waste imho. If the colors look off it's a matter of calibration or false advertising. The PG35VQ had 120% srgb/90% p3 and looked decent.

[DSD27]

1 hour ago, xg32 said:

VA will never have as much color coverage as an ips, just ips will never match VA in contrast. For something close to 100% srgb id rather have VA for the contrast Since essentially every monitor should do 100% srgb, clamping it would be a waste imho. If the colors look off it's a matter of calibration or false advertising. The PG35VQ had 120% srgb/90% p3 and looked decent.

VA has better contrast with deeper blacks, but what's the point if you get black smearing?

If you lower the brightness of an IPS, which you should anyway, contrast will improve a little. All things considered, I think the colors make a much bigger impact in the experience than the higher contrast. I'm never buying VA again.

 

A 120% VA monitor should be able to reproduce at least the same color richness of a 98% IPS, but it isn't.

I agree, it's a waste to clamp it, it looks way better in wide gamut, yet still not as good as the 98% IPS. And on top of that, colors will be inaccurate because Windows and games are still made for sRGB.

[Andrewtst]

2 hours ago, DSD27 said:

I have a wide gamut 120% sRGB VA monitor, VG27WQ. It obviously looks oversaturated, especially the red, it's almost like wine. The monitor doesn't have a sRGB clamp mode, so the only two ways to clamp the gamut to sRGB is by using the ICC profile provided with the ASUS driver (that only works in color managed applications), or using the NovideosRGB utility. In both cases, the oversaturation problem is solved, but a new problema appears, it now looks washed out.

You can say that someone just got used to the wide gamut, so then it finds sRGB to be washed out, but I don't think that is the case here.

I have another monitor, IPS 98% sRGB, Acer VG240YU bmiipx. The colors don't look oversaturated at all, the red is real red, not wine, but everything looks richer and more alive.

I think this is because of the already well known difference between IPS and VA. The only way for the VA to look almost as good as the IPS, is with the wide gamut inaccurate colors. I feel like all the numbers, 100% sRGB, 120% sRGB, 130% sRGB are just a scam on VA monitors.

Thoughts on this?

 

13 minutes ago, DSD27 said:

VA has better contrast with deeper blacks, but what's the point if you get black smearing?

If you lower the brightness of an IPS, which you should anyway, contrast will improve a little. All things considered, I think the colors make a much bigger impact and are more noticeable than the higher contrast. I'm never buying VA again.

 

I agree, it's a waste to clamp it, it looks way better in wide gamut, but unfortunately colors will be inaccurate because Windows and games are still made for sRGB.

Not every VA got over saturation issue. This probably due to Asus itself badly calibration. 

 

I own Samsung Odyssey Neo G9 which is mini-LED in VA. I also own LG 34GN850 which is NanoIPS and also LG C9 OLED TV. I can absolutely said 3 of this display is kind of similar in colours and no over saturation issue. 

 

The Samsung Odyssey Neo G9 do have very bad color output in HDR and washed out in previous firmware where most reviewing review that time, but thanks Samsung is finally fixed the issue in latest firmware and Samsung did not make a wrong calibration later on others Odyssey Neo series anymore.

 

Beside this my Samsung Odyssey Neo G9 don't have Black Smearing issue, this is review by reviewer also mentioned where all Samsung Odyssey Neo G9, Neo G8 and Neo G7 don't have such issue. 

 

Toning down the contrast to get better black in IPS is way too wrong. After owning the mini-LED in VA, my always want IPS in previous no longer is my first choice anymore. Now my display main choices is OLED and mini-LED in VA.

[DSD27]

3 hours ago, Andrewtst said:

 

Not every VA got over saturation issue. This probably due to Asus itself badly calibration. 

 

All wide gamut monitors have over saturation in the WIndows enviroment, it's just how it works. Unless there's an sRGB clamping mode.

 

The Odyssey monitors are expensive and the only ones with no black smearing, in a big world of brands and models of VA panels.

 

3 hours ago, Andrewtst said:

Toning down the contrast to get better black in IPS is way too wrong.

I said tuning down the brightness, not the contrast.

[Motifator]

Whoever says VA never looks good has never seen or owned an actually, really good VA. I own a Sony VA TV, 4k, HDR, from 2020 or so... and it looks AMAZING with high bitrate, HDR content. In fact, it looks better than like... any LCD I've ever owned extremely easily. The only things that outdo it in my place, are my OLEDs from my laptops.

The problem with VA is, haloing / ghosting / smearing at high refresh AND the fact that most companies cheap out by using the crap VA's in their monitors.

There are also some glorious 35 inch VA panel ultrawide monitors that are very expensive, however are being phased out by the QD-OLEDs currently.

[Andrewtst]

3 hours ago, DSD27 said:

All wide gamut monitors have over saturation in the WIndows enviroment, it's just how it works. Unless there's an sRGB clamping mode.

 

The Odyssey monitors are expensive and the only ones with no black smearing, in a big world of brands a models of VA panels.

 

I said tuning down the brightness, not the contrast.

Tuning down either too much is a wrong way.Typo, I mean tuning down too much brightness is a wrong way 

 

Want good thing but cheap? They is no such thing. To be cheap something need to compensate.

 

You just had a bad VA panel and assumed all is bad.

[DSD27]

3 hours ago, Motifator said:

Whoever says VA never looks good has never seen or owned an actually, really good VA. I own a Sony VA TV, 4k, HDR, from 2020 or so... and it looks AMAZING with high bitrate, HDR content. In fact, it looks better than like... any LCD I've ever owned extremely easily. The only things that outdo it in my place, are my OLEDs from my laptops.

The problem with VA is, haloing / ghosting / smearing at high refresh AND the fact that most companies cheap out by using the crap VA's in their monitors.

There are also some glorious 35 inch VA panel ultrawide monitors that are very expensive, however are being phased out by the QD-OLEDs currently.

TVs are a different matter... Especially HDR.

 

1 hour ago, Andrewtst said:

Typo, I mean tuning down too much brightness is a wrong way. 

 

Want good thing but cheap? They is no such thing. To be cheap something need to compensate.

 

You just had a bad VA panel and assumed all is bad.

Don't need to tone down too much, just what you normally would, since all monitors come with too high brightness by default. That's already enough to reduce the IPS glow and improve the blacks.

 

It is a 399€ VA and not my first VA. Just as this IPS is also not my first IPS. I've had enough experiences to know that VA will always look washed out if you compare it directly to an IPS, even a cheaper IPS or with less sRGB coverage. I got to this conclusion and it's a real shame.

[Andrewtst]

1 minute ago, DSD27 said:

399€ VA

That why you own a bad VA display. This is too cheap to be good. This price also won't give you a real good IPS panel. 

[Motifator]

5 minutes ago, DSD27 said:

TVs are a different matter... Especially HDR.

A good amount of the PC monitors you buy are panels *cut* from TVs and this was like a €400 TV actually.

You can get a real good IPS for 400, though.

[DSD27]

50 minutes ago, Andrewtst said:

That why you own a bad VA display. This is too cheap to be good. This price also won't give you a real good IPS panel. 

So VA is acceptable if you spend a huge amount of money, and you can basically only choose one or two models from one brand (Samsung) 

And if you compare the colors of the Odyssey monitors to cheaper IPS and equally priced IPS, I really doubt you won't notice less vibrant color in SDR.

 

47 minutes ago, Motifator said:

A good amount of the PC monitors you buy are panels *cut* from TVs and this was like a €400 TV actually.

You can get a real good IPS for 400, though.

Yeah you can, and there are ways to improve the blacks of the IPS, like bias lighting. As to improve the richness of VA colors, much more complicated.

People praise the colors of VAs looking at their wide gamut oversaturated colors, once they get calibrated to sRGB, they will look dull compared to IPS.

 

An 98% sRGB IPS monitor looks better than a 120% sRGB monitor, and it's not due to it being a "bad VA", it's just how VAs and IPS are.

[Motifator]

3 minutes ago, DSD27 said:

Yeah you can, and there are ways to improve the blacks of the IPS, like bias lighting. As to improve the richness of VA colors, much more complicated.

People praise the colors of VAs looking at their wide gamut oversaturated colors, once they get calibrated to sRGB, they will look washed out compared to IPS.

High end VAs exist outside of the realm of Samsung, like the MSI 35 inch UW's. They give proper RGB and are overly expensive / knocked out by OLEDs, however, as I said.

I don't see a proper market for VAs on monitors much nowadays. On the top of the shelf, there is OLED. Then you have an IPS for every other price range.

[Andrewtst]

1 hour ago, DSD27 said:

So VA is acceptable if you spend a huge amount of money, and you can basically only choose one or two models from one brand (Samsung) 

And if you compare the colors of the Odyssey monitors to cheaper IPS and equally priced IPS, I really doubt you won't notice less vibrant color in SDR.

 

Yeah you can, and there are ways to improve the blacks of the IPS, like bias lighting. As to improve the richness of VA colors, much more complicated.

People praise the colors of VAs looking at their wide gamut oversaturated colors, once they get calibrated to sRGB, they will look dull compared to IPS.

 

An 98% sRGB IPS monitor looks better than a 120% sRGB monitor, and it's not due to it being a "bad VA", it's just how VAs and IPS are.

No point talk to ignorant person. You may continue your assumption. Good luck!

[Stahlmann]

On 10/23/2022 at 4:05 AM, DSD27 said:

So VA is acceptable if you spend a huge amount of money, and you can basically only choose one or two models from one brand (Samsung) 

And if you compare the colors of the Odyssey monitors to cheaper IPS and equally priced IPS, I really doubt you won't notice less vibrant color in SDR.

 

Yeah you can, and there are ways to improve the blacks of the IPS, like bias lighting. As to improve the richness of VA colors, much more complicated.

People praise the colors of VAs looking at their wide gamut oversaturated colors, once they get calibrated to sRGB, they will look dull compared to IPS.

 

An 98% sRGB IPS monitor looks better than a 120% sRGB monitor, and it's not due to it being a "bad VA", it's just how VAs and IPS are.

A calibrated VA monitor will have the same colors as a calibrated IPS monitor. That's the point of calibration. To bring every monitor to the same reference accuracity.

 

Say both the VA and the IPS support ~100% sRGB and both are calibrated to sRGB, then the VA will look better because of it's contrast advantage. Plus, the VA monitor will be able to display more details in the dark parts of a screen.

 

VA is simply the best-looking LCD tech, which is also why it's by far the most used technology in TVs.

 

A 120% sRGB monitor has a wider color gamut, so it will look more saturated than 100% sRGB. IPS, TN or VA doesn't matter. (As long as the color gamut remains unclamped) However, more saturated =/= more accurate.

 

Bias lighting won't improve IPS blacks. It will maybe make the perceived contrast a bit higher, but you still don't get the dark details you get in other techs like VA. IPS "black" will always be gray, not matter how bright your environment is. You NEED FALD to get IPS to display anywhere near black.

 

The reason why the ICC profile makes the VA monitor in the OP washed out is likely because it's clipping too much. ICC profiles are created on a specific monitor. Unit to unit variance is a thing in monitors. So as soon as you use an ICC profile made on another monitor, you're bound to run into issues like this.

 

Another possibility is that the 99% sRGB IPS monitor has oversaturated red, but not green or blue, so the "weird" colors OP is experiencing don't show in numbers like the sRGB coverage.

 

Without a calibration device it's not really possible to tell if the VA or the IPS monitor displays the correct red value and all we can do is speculate. For that reason it's (imo) worth it to invest in something like a "Calibrite Color Checker display" when you're at all concerned about accuracity. This way you don't need to worry about factory calibration anymore. In most apps you will benefit from a correct white point and gamut clipping. In color managed apps you will even have reference-level color accuracity.

[DSD27]

2 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

A calibrated VA monitor will have the same colors as a calibrated IPS monitor. That's the point of calibration. To bring every monitor to the same reference accuracity.

 

Say both the VA and the IPS support ~100% sRGB and both are calibrated to sRGB, then the VA will look better because of it's contrast advantage. Plus, the VA monitor will be able to display more details in the dark parts of a screen.

 

VA is simply the best-looking LCD tech, which is also why it's by far the most used technology in TVs.

 

A 120% sRGB monitor has a wider color gamut, so it will look more saturated than 100% sRGB. IPS, TN or VA doesn't matter. (As long as the color gamut remains unclamped) However, more saturated =/= more accurate.

 

Bias lighting won't improve IPS blacks. It will maybe make the perceived contrast a bit higher, but you still don't get the dark details you get in other techs like VA. IPS "black" will always be gray, not matter how bright your environment is. You NEED FALD to get IPS to display anywhere near black.

 

The reason why the ICC profile makes the VA monitor in the OP washed out is likely because it's clipping too much. ICC profiles are created on a specific monitor. Unit to unit variance is a thing in monitors. So as soon as you use an ICC profile made on another monitor, you're bound to run into issues like this.

 

Another possibility is that the 99% sRGB IPS monitor has oversaturated red, but not green or blue, so the "weird" colors OP is experiencing don't show in numbers like the sRGB coverage.

 

Without a calibration device it's not really possible to tell if the VA or the IPS monitor displays the correct red value and all we can do is speculate. For that reason it's (imo) worth it to invest in something like a "Calibrite Color Checker display" when you're at all concerned about accuracity. This way you don't need to worry about factory calibration anymore. In most apps you will benefit from a correct white point and gamut clipping. In color managed apps you will even have reference-level color accuracity.

There's something off with the factory calibration of this VA monitor. The sRGB mode doesn't clamp the gamut to sRGB, the Racing mode is exactly the same as the sRGB mode, but without the locked settings. It seems there was some sort of effort to make these two modes closer to sRGB, but not all the way. It's noticeable mostly in the reds, I've calibrated the white point by eye the best I could, I've seen online, not really much I can do.

The ICC profile is overkill, the red is too light and the contrast looks weird. I think at the end of the day, the wide gamut looks closer to the real thing than the ICC profile.

 

The monitor looks better, more balanced, if I use the NovideosRGB utility and clamp it to Display P3, does that make any sense?

[DSD27]

I think I found what is wrong with the ICC profile. I went to this page: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php

With the ICC profile, in color managed applications, the bars are blending too high at the 1.7-1.9 marks,

I can lower the gamma in the NVIDIA control panel, but I think that makes the gamma too low in the desktop environment and in non color managed applications...

Maybe I'm just better off using NovideosRGB and lower the gamma equally for everything.

[Stahlmann]

2 minutes ago, DSD27 said:

I think I found what is wrong with the ICC profile. I went to this page: http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php

With the ICC profile, in color managed applications, the bars are bending to high at the 1.7-1.9 marks,

I can lower the gamma in the NVIDIA control panel, but I think that makes the gamma too low in the desktop environment and in non color managed applications...

Maybe I'm just better off using NovideosRGB and lower the gamma equally for everything.

Then it's exactly what i said here:

 

4 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

The reason why the ICC profile makes the VA monitor in the OP washed out is likely because it's clipping too much. ICC profiles are created on a specific monitor. Unit to unit variance is a thing in monitors. So as soon as you use an ICC profile made on another monitor, you're bound to run into issues like this.

The unit used to create the ICC profile obviously had different gamma tracking than yours. That's why the applied correction curve (ICC profie) screwed it up. That's why you generally shouldn't download and reuse ICC profiles. They're only useful when they're made for your specific unit.

[DSD27]

6 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

The unit used to create the ICC profile obviously had different gamma tracking than yours. That's why the applied correction curve (ICC profie) screwed it up. That's why you generally shouldn't download and reuse ICC profiles. They're only useful when they're made for your specific unit.

This one is installed automatically with the driver.

Is there a way to edit the ICC profile and change the gamma value?

[Stahlmann]

10 minutes ago, DSD27 said:

This one is installed automatically with the driver.

Is there a way to edit the ICC profile and change the gamma value?

The data in the ICC isn't as simple as "gamma = 1.9" and you just change it to "2.2". So basically no, you can't just edit it. I'd suggest simply not using it. As long as you don't have a colorimeter and the built-in sRGB mode doesn't clamp the gamut, you're gonna have to live with oversaturation.

 

A few other reviewers also offer ICC profiles, you could try them out and maybe they're better. Or they're worse for your unit. For example RTINGS offers it on their review page: ASUS TUF Gaming VG27WQ1B Review - RTINGS.com

[DSD27]

10 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

A few other reviewers also offer ICC profiles, you could try them out and maybe they're better. Or they're worse for your unit. For example RTINGS offers it on their review page: ASUS TUF Gaming VG27WQ1B Review - RTINGS.com

That's not the same monitor. But I've tried that ICC in the past, exactly the same thing.

 

I've done a little more testing with online gamma calibration, which are less susceptible to viewing angles than the one from windows, and I found that the gamma was equally too bright, both with and without the ICC profile. I lowered the NVIDIA gamma slider to 0.91 and it now looks good, with deeper blacks and richer colors.

This looks great but can lead to more ghosting. I suspect Asus set the gamma a little brighter on purpose to reduce ghosting. Since the monitor without the driver and its ICC profile, that most people don't even know exist, is always wide gamut, no one notices that it has less deep blacks and washed colors.

[e22big]

On 10/23/2022 at 3:21 AM, DSD27 said:

I have a wide gamut 120% sRGB VA monitor, VG27WQ. It obviously looks oversaturated, especially the red, it's almost like wine. The monitor doesn't have a sRGB clamp mode, so the only two ways to clamp the gamut to sRGB is by using the ICC profile provided with the ASUS driver (that only works in color managed applications), or using the NovideosRGB utility. In both cases, the oversaturation problem is solved, but a new problema appears, it now looks washed out.

You can say that someone just got used to the wide gamut, so then it finds sRGB to be washed out, but I don't think that is the case here.

I have another monitor, IPS 98% sRGB, Acer VG240YU bmiipx. The colors don't look oversaturated at all, the red is real red, not wine, but everything looks richer and more alive.

I think this is because of the already well known difference between IPS and VA. The only way for the VA to look almost as good as the IPS, is with the wide gamut inaccurate colors. I feel like all the numbers, 100% sRGB, 120% sRGB, 130% sRGB are just a scam on VA monitors.

Thoughts on this?

From my experience, you will always have a slightly washed out colour if trying to calibrate a wide gamut monitor to SRGB. Doesn't matter if it's VA or IPS (OLED maybe the exception.)

 

It's the same even if you have a clamped SRGB mode - although to be fair, I am not sure that's just how accurate SRGB look. I don't have a pure SRGB monitor for a long time. I do hear quite a few people complain that they don't like their manually calibrated monitor (to the perfect white point) because 'white look yellow' and 'washed out colours' so it maybe just the way it looks, especially in Windows environment.

 

[Stahlmann]

2 hours ago, e22big said:

From my experience, you will always have a slightly washed out colour if trying to calibrate a wide gamut monitor to SRGB. Doesn't matter if it's VA or IPS (OLED maybe the exception.)

No. If you calibrate the monitor to sRGB, it will be clamped exactly to sRGB. There is no washing out. It might look that way because you're used to oversaturated colors, but it isn't. It's as you said, you're just used to oversaturated colors:

2 hours ago, e22big said:

It's the same even if you have a clamped SRGB mode - although to be fair, I am not sure that's just how accurate SRGB look. I don't have a pure SRGB monitor for a long time.

 

 

2 hours ago, e22big said:

I do hear quite a few people complain that they don't like their manually calibrated monitor (to the perfect white point) because 'white look yellow' and 'washed out colours' so it maybe just the way it looks, especially in Windows environment.

The "yellow-ish" white point is just a matter of getting used to it. Most monitors and TVs have a blue tint out of the box and people got used to it, but as soon as you set the white point to 6500K, everything just looks more natural. It's most noticeable on skin tones. A good example is this video:

 

But to be fair, it's also fine if you want a cooler picture. In the end it's a matter of preference when you're at the consumer end. You just have to know if you really want an accurate monitor.

 

As i have the necessary tools and software, I offer calibration services for TV's and monitors for friends and acquaintances. So far they all prefer the calibrated look when comparing before and after.

[e22big]

4 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

No. If you calibrate the monitor to sRGB, it will be clamped exactly to sRGB. There is no washing out. It might look that way because you're used to oversaturated colors, but it isn't. It's as you said, you're just used to oversaturated colors:

 

 

The "yellow-ish" white point is just a matter of getting used to it. Most monitors and TVs have a blue tint out of the box and people got used to it, but as soon as you set the white point to 6500K, everything just looks more natural. It's most noticeable on skin tones. A good example is this video:

 

But to be fair, it's also fine if you want a cooler picture. In the end it's a matter of preference when you're at the consumer end. You just have to know if you really want an accurate monitor.

 

I offer calibration services to friends and acquaintances and in my experience they generally prefer the calibrated look when comparing uncalibrated and calibrated after i'm done.

Wash out is probably not exactly the correct word, but the constrast seems to be lower than normal for some reason (know because there's a very noticable black raised, which can be fixed by adjusting digital contrast a little)

 

but yeah, like you said, it could be just that most people are more more used to unclampped over saturated colour than accurate SDR. I personally prefer to hardware calibrate my display without using sRGB mode

[Andrewtst]

Sometimes I was thinking who set the 6500k is the correct white balance temperature and said it is the most correct one and everybody just follow it, who knows that temperature is actually wrong from beginning. The person make it standard was actually wrong. 

 

If it is correct then why most people said it is over yellowish and needs time to adapted into it. It sound more like you are get use it but in first contact you know it is yellowish. I don't buy that is because you get use to cooler color. Human is not that can't differentiate in my opinion.

 

I don't care much on the most accurate, I set on what I feel it is the most correct to me and most eye pleasing to me. 

 

Unless you use it for business productivity, else the most accurate is not that important, just don't too over run from origin should be fine already. 

[e22big]

13 minutes ago, Andrewtst said:

Sometimes I was thinking who set the 6500k is the correct white balance temperature and said it is the most correct one and everybody just follow it, who knows that temperature is actually wrong from beginning. The person make it standard was actually wrong. 

 

If it is correct then why most people said it is over yellowish and needs time to adapted into it. It sound more like you are get use it but in first contact you know it is yellowish. I don't buy that is because you get use to cooler color. Human is not that can't differentiate in my opinion.

 

I don't care much on the most accurate, I set on what I feel it is the most correct to me and most eye pleasing to me. 

 

Unless you use it for business productivity, else the most accurate is not that important, just don't too over run from origin should be fine already. 

It's important for colour critical works, basically the whole reason you want your display calibrate - so that on a good monitor with correct colour space, you know that your image will look the same if both calibrate theirs to 6500k.

 

I used to work in a publishing industry and caused really a lot back and forth when neither of us correct our display to the same temperature (we use paper as white point reference - yeah that was a while ago)