Are Omron swithces bad?

[e22big]

I have been using Logitech peripherals exclusively for a few years now, and while they are good product, they have like garbage tier reliability and quality control. Nearly every mice and keyboards I bought from them, developed double click issues, some as early as within a couple of months after purchase. But then I've just realised that basically all of their peripherals that developed double click - actually use Omron. The G915 which is the only product I bought from them without Omron - is actually the one that never develop any double click issues (well, severe double click issue anyway) despite having been with me for the longest at this point, and also took the hardest duty as both my work and gaming keyboard.

 

So I begun to think.. maybe it's not that Logitech is having a garbage QC, maybe the modern Omron switches are just that bad.. 

[Poinkachu]

12 minutes ago, e22big said:

I have been using Logitech peripherals exclusively for a few years now, and while they are good product, they have like garbage tier reliability and quality control. Nearly every mice and keyboards I bought from them, developed double click issues, some as early as within a couple of months after purchase. But then I've just realised that basically all of their peripherals that developed double click - actually use Omron. The G915 which is the only product I bought from them without Omron - is actually the one that never develop any double click issues (well, severe double click issue anyway) despite having been with me for the longest at this point, and also took the hardest duty as both my work and gaming keyboard.

 

So I begun to think.. maybe it's not that Logitech is having a garbage QC, maybe the modern Omron switches are just that bad.. 

Dunno which Omron model you've been experiencing.

but IMHO, rather than bad, its more to they are pretty much the bare minimum.
Can't compare it to like switches that are often used for gaming or "specialized" for high usage.
Even the price different.

[Middcore]

All the mouse brands using Omron switches are equally susceptible to these problems. Unfortunately, that's basically all the gaming mouse brands. I had a Corsair Ironclaw that started to doubleclick in three months. Some people claim Logitech is worse because they run more voltage through the switches or something but I have never seen any evidence of this from someone who would know what they're talking about.

 

The best way to avoid these problems is to get a mouse with optical switches. Roccat has some, as well as Razer. Corsair has started to introduce them on a couple of models like the latest in their M65 line. Logitech doesn't have optical switches on any of their mice last I checked, even their top of the line stuff.

 

I think you're a little bit confused on the keyboard side. Omron doesn't make switches for keyboards as far as I'm aware. Nor have I ever heard of anyone ever talk about "double click" problems on a keyboard. Logitech uses "Romer-G" switches on their mechanical keyboards, and while the tactile version of these in their early mechanical keyboards was widely disliked I haven't heard anybody complain about the overall quality/reliability of them in a long time. 

[e22big]

36 minutes ago, Middcore said:

All the mouse brands using Omron switches are equally susceptible to these problems. Unfortunately, that's basically all the gaming mouse brands. I had a Corsair Ironclaw that started to doubleclick in three months. Some people claim Logitech is worse because they run more voltage through the switches or something but I have never seen any evidence of this from someone who would know what they're talking about.

 

The best way to avoid these problems is to get a mouse with optical switches. Roccat has some, as well as Razer. Corsair has started to introduce them on a couple of models like the latest in their M65 line. Logitech doesn't have optical switches on any of their mice last I checked, even their top of the line stuff.

 

I think you're a little bit confused on the keyboard side. Omron doesn't make switches for keyboards as far as I'm aware. Nor have I ever heard of anyone ever talk about "double click" problems on a keyboard. Logitech uses "Romer-G" switches on their mechanical keyboards, and while the tactile version of these in their early mechanical keyboards was widely disliked I haven't heard anybody complain about the overall quality/reliability of them in a long time. 

They do make swithces for keyboard, a lot of Logitech line use them like the old G615 (which I used, and it double click as hell) or G 513, I am pretty they have a couple from none-gaming line that use Omron as well.

 

The G915 which is the only Logitech product without Omron (it use Kaleh) is actually the only Logitech peripheral I bought that last well beyond the warranty period. 

[Middcore]

41 minutes ago, e22big said:

They do make swithces for keyboard, a lot of Logitech line use them like the old G615 (which I used, and it double click as hell) or G 513, I am pretty they have a couple from none-gaming line that use Omron as well.

 

The G915 which is the only Logitech product without Omron (it use Kaleh) is actually the only Logitech peripheral I bought that last well beyond the warranty period. 

Omron might be a manufacturing partner of Logitech to produce the Romer-G/GX switches. I am not aware off the top of my head of them producing switches for any other keyboard brand so there isn't really a frame of reference for comparison so say whether this is a "all Omron keyboard switches" problem or a "switches Omron makes for Logitech" problem. I don't use Logitech keyboards myself but I have never seen anybody complain about the type of issues you're describing with their keyboards on here or any other tech forum I've followed. The biggest problems I can recall people citing with Romer-G switches is a "mushy" feel (subjective, of course) and maybe a design problem with the stems breaking which might have been corrected now.

 

The problems with Omron mouse switches are endemic and well documented. 99% of the time if you just see people making disparaging references to Omron switches mice is what they're talking about. It's of course entirely possible that Omron-produced keyboard switches have a fault which coincidentally manifests itself in a similar way but since they're two different parts in different types of peripheral I wouldn't assume this.

 

[FRD]

I have a MadCatz R.A.T. 7 that also uses Omron switches. After 5+ years of usage I've never had the double click issue, but my left mouse click switch ever died (click was gone limb) and I replaced it and it was like new. I remember their marketing saying that Omron switches have a lifetime of 20 million clicks, which is possible, but some switches are better than other.

[Middcore]

27 minutes ago, FRD said:

I remember their marketing saying that Omron switches have a lifetime of 20 million clicks, which is possible, but some switches are better than other.

Everybody who uses Omron switches in their mice touts "lifetime of X million clicks" in their marketing like it's a comparative advantage, as if they aren't all using the same parts. Those lifespan figures are also BS, it's a random QC failure, some mice start to fail in a couple of months, some it takes a year, some it never happens. 

[Motifator]

I have had some Japanese Omron switch mice... namely the S001 which did me $20 but was a pretty great piece. I now moved on to a mouse with the Kailh GM 8.0 which double clicks after a month or two. So... your mileage will vary. The 4.0 doesn't suffer from that issue and is probably the switch to buy a mouse with.

[FRD]

3 hours ago, Middcore said:

Everybody who uses Omron switches in their mice touts "lifetime of X million clicks" in their marketing like it's a comparative advantage, as if they aren't all using the same parts. Those lifespan figures are also BS, it's a random QC failure, some mice start to fail in a couple of months, some it takes a year, some it never happens. 

That's right, like I said too, it's marketing. It depends on the luck you have basically. Not all Omrons are equal. They're basically the industry standard.

I think I ever heard that even fake Omron switches exist too, don't entirely remember though.

[Poinkachu]

21 minutes ago, FRD said:

That's right, like I said too, it's marketing. It depends on the luck you have basically. Not all Omrons are equal. They're basically the industry standard.

I think I ever heard that even fake Omron switches exist too, don't entirely remember though.

Probably Omron china version.
Omron japan version tends to to be higher in max click limit IIRC.

[TheChromaBristlenose]

Speaking primarily about mice here, but some of the basic stuff can be adapted to keyboards too. Japanese (D2F- line) Omrons are the literal gold standard when it comes to microswitches. Unfortunately they're expensive and available only in relatively low volumes, so most mice use the Chinese (D2FC- line) switches. Those aren't the absolute worst, but they're designed to be economical and so feature a number of compromises:

• Cheap contact materials (copper and nickel) that are prone to oxidation, and need to be run at much higher power to accommodate their wetting current requirements.
• "Scrubbing" style contacts, designed to compensate for the use of said oxidizing materials. Paired with the small contact surface area this can lead to accelerated mechanical wear especially if the mouse's plungers were designed to hit the switch significantly off-axis.
• Lack of a proper NO contact, with D2FC instead relying purely on the conductive material of the NO pin. This decreases signal integrity due to increased contact bounce and irregular contact, exacerbated as the switch wears.
• Unimpeded spring overtravel, due to lack of the secondary spring that's in place on D2F and other more expensive switches. This can permanently deform the leafspring if regularly actuated with force or off-axis, and out of the factory results in higher tolerances.
• SPST (Single Pole Single Throw) design, which, while not inherently bad, means D2FC cannot be used with set-latch debouncing, a far superior method to the basic firmware debounce that's found on 99.99% of all mice.

The list might give you the impression that D2FC are garbage switches that should never be used, but most of these compromises can be worked around in their implementation. Mechanical wear can be diminished with proper button design, contact oxidation can be accommodated with more current, and the symptoms of degrading signal integrity (double-clicking, usually) can be worked around with increased debounce time. It's when manufacturers fail at one or more of these, that you end up with problems.

 

Taking Logitech as the example. They've got button design down pat, with elevated PCBs that allow plungers to depress at the right angle, proper tensioning that discourages gorilla pressing, and overtravel stops built into the shell. Mechanically they've done everything right, but failed at the other two. They insist on running their switches (especially in wireless mice) on extremely low power, and while they've since doubled it due to the plague of double-clicking issues, had debounce times far too low for longevity.

 

An easy fix to all of this, of course, would be to just use better switches and a better (hardware-based) debouncing method. However, the vast majority of companies have demonstrated that they're unwilling to take the extra cost, so it's advisable for everyone to get good at soldering.

[Middcore]

5 minutes ago, James Evens said:

TL;DR Blame Logitech and not Omron for there infamous double click issue. It is like tuning a car and blaming the manufacturer if the engine blows up

But it's not just Logitech. It's literally all the big gaming peripheral brands using Omron. Like I said, I had a Corsair mouse a couple years ago that made it a mere ~90 days before the doubleclicks started. Are all of the gaming brands doing it, and therefore they're to blame and not Omron? Maybe. Either way the outcome is the same: you can either avoid Omron switches or resign yourself to possibly having to replace switches and/or the whole mouse.

[Doobeedoo]

Some may have bad luck some not. 

My mouse uses Huano switches. To me they feel better too.

[Brian McKee]

On 7/6/2022 at 11:15 AM, e22big said:

I have been using Logitech peripherals exclusively for a few years now, and while they are good product, they have like garbage tier reliability and quality control.

I think this means they're a bad product.

[Brian McKee]

18 hours ago, Middcore said:

But it's not just Logitech. It's literally all the big gaming peripheral brands using Omron. Like I said, I had a Corsair mouse a couple years ago that made it a mere ~90 days before the doubleclicks started. Are all of the gaming brands doing it, and therefore they're to blame and not Omron? Maybe. Either way the outcome is the same: you can either avoid Omron switches or resign yourself to possibly having to replace switches and/or the whole mouse.

I've had non omron switch mice die just as fast. This is confirmation bias.

[e22big]

9 hours ago, Brian McKee said:

I think this means they're a bad product.

Well, they fit in my hands better than any mouse, and while software is mostly garbage - it's still better than what I've used from other brand.

 

Plus, they are one of the few who are still making a high end keyboard with macro keys, can't argue with that

[FRD]

On 7/7/2022 at 6:43 AM, James Evens said:

As long as China exists there will be fakes.

 

Btw. Omron aren't any longer industry standard for microswitches in computer mice's and they aren't even the enthusiast choice. Omron Romer-G key switches never where industry standard.

 

I guess I'm still living in another era. At the time I needed a new mouse, Omrons were the standard. These days I'm not up-to-date about what the industry standard or best switches are, maybe just a bit for keyboards.