Computer Science Major, but living in Japan

[c00face]

Hard to find information about this subject. I'm switching my career into Computer Science and wanted to know if I'll be able to live off-shore (Japan) while still working for a good US company. If company won't work, what about living in Japan, but taking on side jobs that's from the US (better pay)?

 

There has to be someone on this board who has a CS degree that is living in Japan, but doing side jobs for income. I don't want to be employed in Japan as the work hours there is not what I want and the pay isn't as competitive. Wanted to take on side jobs else where while living abroad.

[igormp]

If you're good enough and go into an area with enough demand, then sure, but don't expect that to happen right off the bat.

 

I do work for an US company while living in brazil. Sure, it pays less than someone with the same position as me located in the US, but since the cost of living here is way lower, I can make much more with that amount of money.

[Blue4130]

42 minutes ago, c00face said:

Hard to find information about this subject. I'm switching my career into Computer Science and wanted to know if I'll be able to live off-shore (Japan) while still working for a good US company. If company won't work, what about living in Japan, but taking on side jobs that's from the US (better pay)?

 

There has to be someone on this board who has a CS degree that is living in Japan, but doing side jobs for income. I don't want to be employed in Japan as the work hours there is not what I want and the pay isn't as competitive. Wanted to take on side jobs else where while living abroad.

Cost of living in Japan is higher than the US, if you are making USA based salary, you may find it hard to afford living there. 

 

Also, do you have Japanese citizenship? How do you plan on staying there long term? Most visas or permitted stays will likely be less than a year unless you are employed by an Japanese company. 

[c00face]

12 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Cost of living in Japan is higher than the US, if you are making USA based salary, you may find it hard to afford living there. 

 

Also, do you have Japanese citizenship? How do you plan on staying there long term? Most visas or permitted stays will likely be less than a year unless you are employed by an Japanese company. 

It’s going to be for the first year on the visa and overtime work for the citizenship. How do foreigners  afford to live in Japan when the cost of living is higher than US, are they employed by a Japanese company and work the super long hours?

[Blue4130]

3 minutes ago, c00face said:

It’s going to be for the first year on the visa and overtime work for the citizenship. How do foreigners  afford to live in Japan when the cost of living is higher than US, are they employed by a Japanese company and work the super long hours?

Mostly yes. As for the super long hours, that depends. Many foreigners who live there are considered "highly skilled" and can negotiate for decent salary/work conditions. In general, you find language teachers or manager level people living overseas. Entry level jobs rarely pay enough for foreign talant. 

 

Do note, that if you are on a tourist visa, you can't work. 

[Mark Kaine]

i don't think wages in Japan are worse? I kinda expect the opposite...

 

is there another reason you want to do this? are you already in Japan? 

 

4 hours ago, Sakuriru said:

you cannot work for a US company and live in Japan

wait... is there a law forbidding this? seems kind of....... unusual? 

 

So let's say you work for apple (American company)  ... how does this work, does apple stop being an American company just because it has presence in Japan?  i cant imagine tbh. 

 

4 hours ago, Sakuriru said:

The best way to get into Japan is through the JET program, and teach English for a few years. That's the route you should go if you're passionate about doing this.

good idea honestly... i heard that before... im actually tempted to do this... i had an A grade an English and often have difficulties to convince people Im in fact not English due to my heavy east coast accent lol...

 

BUT the easiest way to get to work in Japan is if your company sends you there, plain and simple. 

 

ps: of course my Japanese suuxxx -.-  Arigatou w~

[Blue4130]

1 minute ago, Mark Kaine said:

i don't think wages in Japan are worse? I kinda expect the opposite...

 

is there another reason you want to do this? are you already in Japan? 

 

wait... is there a law forbidding this? seems kind of....... unusual? 

 

So let's say you work for apple (American company)  ... how does this work, does apple stop being an American company just because it has presence in Japan?  i cant imagine tbh. 

Most countries have laws inplace for this. Unless the company has a Japanese presence, you can't just live there. You need to pay taxes and have relevant documents such as work permits and visas. You can't get a work permit for a company that isn't there.

 

Also, most countries do not allow side jobs if you are working there legally. You can only do what is listed on your work permit.

[Mark Kaine]

26 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Most countries have laws inplace for this. Unless the company has a Japanese presence, you can't just live there. You need to pay taxes and have relevant documents such as work permits and visas.

hence the best/easiest way is to work for a foreign company,  theyll even do the paperwork  for you probably, which the poster said you literally cannot do. So there isnt a law preventing it (as i figured)

 

btw i also figure you could work at an US military base and probably even get paid in USD (as pointless as it may be)

 

26 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Also, most countries do not allow side jobs if you are working there legally.

Thank goodness,  i hate "side jobs" as it typically just means more work, nobody got time for that Ima be in Akibahara playing video games and collecting figurines and stuff! ; D

 

[Mark Kaine]

4 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

Apple needs to have an established office/subsidary in Japan. This subsidary needs to sponsor you, the applicant.

yeah, obviously.  Im not saying its easy , but it can be depending on your work/job... 

 

6 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

It can be a little competitive. It's recommended to have a foreign teaching cert. But it's the best way in.

I see, but seriously?  you would need to know Japanese fairly well, right? 

 

which i really don't - i don't even watch anime TBH lmao (except those 4 or 5 "special" Senran Kagura episodes i may or may not have watched... ) 

 

Oh and the first season of 2LoveRU, its genuinely funny but only went downhill from there ... 

 

I did play some heavily reliant on language Japanese games (such as 巨影都市 ...) but i didn't really learn much anyways even though i google translated everything lol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

Tldr: its difficult,  unless your work sponsors someone's Otaku ambitions.  ʕ•ٹ•ʔ

 

 

 

[Blue4130]

1 hour ago, Mark Kaine said:

hence the best/easiest way is to work for a foreign company,  theyll even do the paperwork  for you probably, which the poster said you literally cannot do. So there isnt a law preventing it (as i figured)

 

btw i also figure you could work at an US military base and probably even get paid in USD (as pointless as it may be)

 

Thank goodness,  i hate "side jobs" as it typically just means more work, nobody got time for that Ima be in Akibahara playing video games and collecting figurines and stuff! ; D

 

There are laws preventing you from living there without proper certs. There are many laws on immigration.

 

Another way to live there would be to marry a local.

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, Sakuriru said:

It's recommended that you have a N1 or N2 JLPT certification, but it's not necessary and many people get accepted in with little Japanese knowledge.

ah ok so its not a strict requirement...

 

1 hour ago, Sakuriru said:

Though if your heart is set on living there, learning the language is the first step

well, you'd think so... but for me its difficult to learn without doing... for example i speak "almost" fluent (although not perfect) Italian, but, only when Im there basically,  I need a week or so to remember... and i never actually learned the language...

 

As such Im fairly certain i would learn speaking Japanese quickly (writing and reading is a different question lol)

 

1 hour ago, Sakuriru said:

Anime is a terrible way to learn Japanese because first,

well in theory it's good because you're already getting familiar with some things and phrases... but yeah i don't get people who say they learned it through anime, doesn't work for me...

 

1 hour ago, Sakuriru said:

language's contextual usage

i know but also feels like its an exaggerated problem,  people know someone is a foreigner, they'll explain or its just not a big deal...

 

I talked a lot with Japanese people online in video games and such (and i mean "a lot") we talked about that also... its not really a big deal (or even difficult outside of historical stuff, which a foreigner just won't know, but I imagine it'd to be fun learning anyways) 

 

ps: i just read comments on a song / video thats basically about having sex, and Japanese comments saying it is not! and how westerners don't understand! " when it clearly is! lol 

 

i talked about that too with my friends... they will lie immediately if they think something is too "shameful" ...

 

but yes, you really need to be familiar with them to get behind those little secrets.  : p

 

EDIT funny example: 

 

Spoiler

So i asked them how do you say

 

I LOVE YOU?

 

They were like "we dont really say this here..."  ok, obviously i didn't believe them! It took me about a month to make them

tell me lol... And then I KEPT SAYING IT HAHA  

 

 

(edited out the names)

 

[Mark Kaine]

34 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

aishiteru is only used in extremely intimate contexts. Its use here is tongue in cheek, obviously, but while it translates to "I love you", it wouldn't be used in everyday language. daisuki is preferred form of "I love you", especially in public contexts and can be used unironically.

 

Though if unsure going with suki is the safer option, which has a dual meaning of like/love depending on the context, but is guaranteed not to offend anyone. At least not because of your choice of vocabulary.

Yeah, i know...  they told me that too : )

 

the funny thing was... at first they wouldn't tell me AT ALL when I asked... they were quite noticably confused / ashamed by me even asking... BUT...  in the end it wasn't an issue... and of course i kept saying aishiteru then, because!!! : D

 

(and no, i didn't overdo it, it was mostly just practice/  when i was alone... it was hella difficult to actually type in Japanese with the prediction thingies they have, but that also helped... i cannot hand write Japanese at all, but typing worked out pretty well in the end : p)

 

34 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

aishiteru is only used in extremely intimate contexts

Such as in jpop songs! xD

 

 

ps: but of course you're right, its important to know the context... im just saying Japanese will often say things that aren't exactly true, just to specifically avoid a certain conversation... its fine with me,  but still funny, and also younger generations seem to be much more open about that stuff (until you find youtube comments flat out denying a song is about certain stuff and westerners dont understand UwU...)

 

And yes i get it, Japanese love word plays,  so even if it *isnt* about a subject directly,  it still *implies* that subject    

 

edit:

Spoiler

this isn't the song i mentioned but another great example 

 

 

No one, including Japanese it would seem, knows what the song *really* is about, yet you just need to watch the video to understand the subject (guys, puberty,  etc...) and its simply hilarious

 

 

[kasugatei]

On 5/24/2022 at 10:33 PM, c00face said:

I don't want to be employed in Japan

Then you can’t live long time there, simply said. 
Obtaining work permit for Japan is not difficult if the employer is your visa guarantor. 
 

As people already said, the only other option is to get married. 
 

Someone mentioned getting Japanese citizenship which is quite difficult if you don’t know Japanese and Japan doesn’t recognize dual citizenship so you would have to renounce your other citizenship(s). 
 

Also, speaking about super long working hours, it is more of a stereotype than a fact. Yes, some companies are like that (aka “black companies”), but most of them are not. It is also worth to add that Japanese have different standards for foreigners so super long overtime is not expected. 

[kasugatei]

EDIT: I forgot about investor visa which is another option, but you must show up with lots of money and present a solid plan (ie making your own company or a Japanese branch of the existing one) in order to get that one.

 

[cmndr]

For tax reasons it's relatively hard to live in Japan while "working" for a US company in the US. For Visa reasons it's also hard.
If you do, expect to be paid a Japanese rate. And probably by a Japanese subsidiary.

I'll use kind of an extreme example - you start your career at Google. In Mountain View, at age 23 you'd make around $180,000 a year starting out (plus maybe a 20k sign on bonus). In Tokyo it might be more like $80,000.

I also don't know about differences in work culture but on balance bad work life balance in the US might be in the office from 8am-6PM. In Japan it's probably more like 7-11 (though with lots of slacking in the middle).

Going off of an anecdote but one of my coworkers had a second major in Japanese and she lived in Japan for a year, her conclusion "great country to visit, wouldn't want to work there"

  

On 5/24/2022 at 7:18 AM, Blue4130 said:

Cost of living in Japan is higher than the US, if you are making USA based salary, you may find it hard to afford living there. 

 

Also, do you have Japanese citizenship? How do you plan on staying there long term? Most visas or permitted stays will likely be less than a year unless you are employed by an Japanese company. 

It's about 8% lower overall
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/PA.NUS.PPPC.RF/rankings

With that said overall doesn't mean for every person in every locale.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 2:59 PM, Sakuriru said:

The best way to get into Japan is through the JET program, and teach English for a few years. That's the route you should go if you're passionate about doing this.

I don't know if that's the "best" way. It's the way that seems to get mentioned on Youtube the most. This probably means the lowest barrier to entry path.

 

Most common and "best" usually don't go hand in hand.

Doing a VERY quick search - https://www.japanvisa.com/visas/japan-intra-company-transferee-visa
I'd lean towards getting a very good job in the US first, with a Japanese presence and then transferring. I have no idea how reliable that site is but it outlines the existence of a visa system for technical workers.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 7:26 PM, Mark Kaine said:

i don't think wages in Japan are worse? I kinda expect the opposite...

If you're college educated and in a high demand field...
Living in the US is an "easy" way to get access to jobs paying 2-10x as much as in many other countries.

Not a direct comparison but -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

Median income in the US is about 2x as high as in Japan. And it only skyrockets when you look at the 25th percentile or higher.

The US has similar pay rates for the bottom 5% through the middle 50% as many other countries (EU and industrialized Asian economies). It's the top half that REALLY does well though (usually older, well-educated or entrepreneurs to cornered a local market).

 

[Mark Kaine]

13 minutes ago, cmndr said:

also don't know about differences in work culture but on balance bad work life balance in the US might be in the office from 8am-6PM. In Japan it's probably more like 7-11 (though with lots of slacking in the middle).

Yeah, you hear that a lot... drinking sake with the boss after work until midnight etc... not my thing at all, i don't even drink and also probably cant stand the boss...

 

Therfore, I have decided if I ever work in Japan it'll be in a maidcafe ~

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, cmndr said:

If you're college educated and in a high demand field...

yeah that's what i was estimating of, going by the OP... but honestly Im surprised google as per your example would pay less... I'd kinda expect some compensation / incentives for working overseas... or at least same wages not *less*...

 

not saying I doubt it,  just that i definitely didn't think so.

[cmndr]

19 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

yeah that's what i was estimating of, going by the OP... but honestly Im surprised google as per your example would pay less... I'd kinda expect some compensation / incentives for working overseas... or at least same wages not *less*...

 

not saying I doubt it,  just that i definitely didn't think so.

https://www.levels.fyi/company/Google/salaries/Software-Engineer/

 

Doing a search for midcareer pay in Japan shows 90-210K a year pay USD (Level 4, most common level). The overall middle of the road figure is $270k (mostly skewed my the number of people in Mountain View and SF)

The usual rule of thumb for Google pay is if you move from San Francisco to say Canada you'd go from $270k to maybe something like $170k and something like 150k in the UK or Ireland or Germany... Basically only Switzerland matches US pay.

It's similar at most tech companies from what I gather.

One "hack" to getting around this (less relevant now unless perhaps you're SET on Amazon) would be to onboard in the US, get you $300k or so of stocks (which is paid out over 4 years) based on US wages and to then move and get paid out LATER. Not sure how viable this is. Google front loads now (so 33% stock in year 1, and 12% in year 4) and Amazon backloads (10%, 10%, 40%, 40% I believe)

 

 

Either way, if the goal is to "get a Japanese Waifu" and to have lots of cash and reasonable work life balance... moving to little Tokyo in LA or Japan Town in San Francisco is a lot easier. No convenience stores everywhere but I'm sure you can get by with Marukai or Nijiya.

[Mark Kaine]

7 minutes ago, cmndr said:

The usual rule of thumb for Google pay is if you move from San Francisco to say Canada you'd go from $270k to maybe something like $170k and something like 150k in the UK or Ireland or Germany... Basically only Switzerland matches US pay.

Lol, it's still kinda odd!

 

"Hey, Joe, you're going to work in Japan next month,is that ok? Oh and not only will you have the stress of moving and lose all you're friends, need to learn a new language etc, no, you will also get paid half!"

 

Joe:

._.

 

 

 

 

It just seems so odd/unfair lol... and its not like Japan is cheap (it really isnt afaik)

[cmndr]

50 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Lol, it's still kinda odd!

 

"Hey, Joe, you're going to work in Japan next month,is that ok? Oh and not only will you have the stress of moving and lose all you're friends, need to learn a new language etc, no, you will also get paid half!"

 

I suspect that in the long run top level wages WILL normalize. This is assuming someone is proficient in English and is able to operate in American corporate culture.

Wages in the US are just higher though.

When you hear about "inequality" in the US, it basically just means college educated people get paid more and the masses get paid about the same.
This doesn't show Japan (probably similar overall to France) but basically... most countries are poor compared to the US. https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2017/04/24/western-europe-middle-class-appendix-e/

Also why would a company pay you more to move somewhere where you won't be as productive (because of communication issues). By many measures you wouldn't be as productive as a Japanese native speaker. You'd also likely look like a foreigner. There is value in people who fit in in both the US and abroad but... not something I'd expect of an American.
 

50 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

It just seems so odd/unfair lol... and its not like Japan is cheap (it really isnt afaik)

It's not 1992 anymore. The Japanese economy basically stagnated and the era of excess over. The crazy prices (mostly real estate) have mostly normalized. Especially housing (there's been A LOT of construction in Japan). Japan has had A LOT of deflation in the last 20-30 years. https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/After-20-years-Japan-still-stuck-in-deflationary-mindset-Kuroda2
 

Comparing costs from when I visitited Japan - food is generally cheaper in Japan, internet/cell is cheap, not sure about electricity/water, clothes seemed similar, electronics seemed similar. It's next to China so easy access to a a lot of mass produced stuff. You also don't need a car. Note that my mindset is as someone with high income and who still lives like a college student (retire by 40 anyone?)

 

For what it's worth - https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/san-francisco/

Average rent in SF for a 2 bedroom apartment is around $3200/month (more than what a typical Japanese person makes in total). Eyeballing Tokyo I'm seeing figures around $2000/month for a 2 bedroom apartment.

Japan is generally cheaper than Silicon Valley/SF. For context median pay in Santa Clara (aka Silicon Valley) is around $126k per household and it's $120k in SF. Median household income for Japan is about 3x lower. This does affect certain COL factors. Even compared to an expensive city like Los Angeles SF and Santa Clara were around 20-50% more expensive when I went to eat out. (though my sense of price is still stuck in 2019 and everything post COVID is just screwy)

And there are certainly parts of the US that are cheaper. Moving to a low CoL area in the US would usually get you around a 25% pay cut. (not terrible California's income tax is around 10% and at FAANG salary levels you's "only" be losing about half of the overall pay figure. )

[Blue4130]

36 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Lol, it's still kinda odd!

 

"Hey, Joe, you're going to work in Japan next month,is that ok? Oh and not only will you have the stress of moving and lose all you're friends, need to learn a new language etc, no, you will also get paid half!"

 

Joe:

._.

 

 

 

 

It just seems so odd/unfair lol... and its not like Japan is cheap (it really isnt afaik)

Yea, That's not how it works.

[Mark Kaine]

48 minutes ago, Blue4130 said:

Yea, That's not how it works.

See above... it kinda is... Not great! 

 

I think most likely I would say no to such an offer, especially if i wasn't particularly interested in Japan...

 

 

Maybe that's why i don't have a high paying job... lol.

 

49 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Also why would a company pay you more to move somewhere where you won't be as productive (because of communication issues)

well, I dont think i agree with this in particular.  If your work wants you to work in Japan/ overseas then there will be probably a good reason for that!  Your education,  knowledge,  experience etc... and it will be something important that benefits the company overall,  they might even give you a translator (depending how important it actually is)

 

Yes, i know there wont be just one reason for a company to move a worker like this, but I'd think this would be a pretty common case, considering we're talking high level IT stuff. So it depends,  but for a high level job it really doesn't make much sense, this person would most likely also still have to pay things in the US, i dont believe they'd automatically sell their villa etc just because they go to Japan for a year or two, i definitely wouldn't, and i would also demand or expect a rise / bonus for my efforts for sure! 

: D

[kasugatei]

Regarding the living cost, I would add that in Japan you basically don’t need financial black hole aka car. Japanese public transportation is among the best in the world and suburbs are not stupidly designed like in northern America so basically everything for daily needs is usually in a walking distance from the home. 

[Blue4130]

12 minutes ago, Niksa said:

Regarding the living cost, I would add that in Japan you basically don’t need financial black hole aka car. Japanese public transportation is among the best in the world and suburbs are not stupidly designed like in northern America so basically everything for daily needs is usually in a walking distance from the home. 

For me, that is the biggest savings. Granted, I am in China, not Japan, but it's the same here. World class public transit. Something that was a pipe dream when I lived in Canada.