Linux or Windows for Friend?

[whm1974]

So this was back in early 2015 and I was fixing up an old computer my friend, wife, daughter had. I advise him to buy a New and Legal Windows 7 Disc from Newegg. I wasn't aware they were brought out by a Company in China. It arrived broken in the Mail and after some argument with costumer service, he gotten a PSU instead of of new disc or refund.

 

I end up installing Xubuntu anyway and buy the PSU for $50 from the friend. Now I do know that I can simply D/L a Win10 Image from MS and Flash it to a USB Stick, then install.

 

Now would I install Window or Linux? Well my friend doesn't know much about Computers and always gets or has something with low specs. Back in the WinXP days, he used to be my landlord, he would get Viruses and other malware. This would also include some message trying sell Male Improvement pills. He had a little girl at the time, 5 or 6. I used to kid him if he wanted his daughter to see that...

 

Anyway he had no issues with using it at all, but his needs are simple.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

11 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

It arrived broken in the Mail

You can easily download the ISO. You don't need the disk, only the key, which I'm sure was still legible. But that's not the issue at hand.

12 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

Now would I install Window or Linux?

 

12 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

I end up installing Xubuntu

Normally I'd say go with Windows on a machine that is for someone with limited computer experience, but in this case since they were already a Linux user for many[?] years, then just go with what they know.

[pythonmegapixel]

7 minutes ago, Hairless Monkey Boy said:

Normally I'd say go with Windows on a machine that is for someone with limited computer experience, but in this case since they were already a Linux user for many[?] years, then just go with what they know.

It really depends what their experience is with. I'm not sure it's particularly clear-cut.

 

If "limited" means "none" (so everything will have the same learning curve), and they won't need any Windows-only proprietary software, then installing Windows is a bit pointless when Linux distributions are free and ones are available with simple, minimal UIs and minimum bloat (which Windows most definitely does not have)

 

And, as you say, if their limited experience is with Linux then making them go through the procedure of re-learning everything the Windows way is also a bit pointless.

 

However a lot of people with limited computer experience might be highly accustomed to - for example - Microsoft Word, and not want to switch to an alternative. Or this might be their 2nd or 3rd Windows 10 machine so Win10 is what they are most comfortable with, even if in theory they could use Linux. In those cases, Windows probably makes more sense.

 

The other case where I'd say using Windows makes sense is if it's a pre-assembled machine that originally came with that, as especially in the case of laptops, sticking with the preinstalled software minimises the risk of annoying hardware incompatibilities. 

[whm1974]

32 minutes ago, Hairless Monkey Boy said:

You can easily download the ISO. You don't need the disk, only the key, which I'm sure was still legible. But that's not the issue at hand.

 

Normally I'd say go with Windows on a machine that is for someone with limited computer experience, but in this case since they were already a Linux user for many[?] years, then just go with what they know.

This was Windows 7 Home that was on that computer. So is that what I was going to put back it. In early '15 Windows 10 was not out yet. I should have had him ordered 7 on USB instead.

 

All he used this for was Internet and I think he was already using Firefox anyway.

[GoodBytes]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:43 PM, whm1974 said:

This was Windows 7 Home that was on that computer. So is that what I was going to put back it. In early '15 Windows 10 was not out yet. I should have had him ordered 7 on USB instead.

Windows 7 and 8.x are still eligible to Windows 10 free upgrade. (And Win10 users are eligible for Win11.. assuming the system is compatible).

 

Use this tool (under Windows PC), to download and prepare a USB flash drive with Windows 10.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/software-download/windows10

(Click on the blue button "Download tool now")

 

When you'll have your USB flash drive prepared (note: it will be formatted by the tool, so you'll lose everything on it), boot your friend computer, install Windows 10.

 

On the Windows 10 installation, it will ask you for the product key, pick "I don't have one" (as it only takes in Windows 10 product keys), and pick the correct edition the Windows 7 product key that you have. So, if you have Win7 Home Premium -> Windows 10 Home. If you have Win7 Professional -> Windows 10 Pro. Once at the OOBE Setup (where Cortana starts talking and asks you to setup the system and first account), you can do that now for your friend, or go to Audit mode by doing: CTRL + SHIFT + F3. This will switch to audit mode, and you can use this temporary desktop environment to setup the device.

 

Skip to the last paragraph if you wish to not go through Audit mode and simply just setup the system for your friend directly (pass through the OOBE (first time setup, install all drivers, make sure Windows is updated):

 

In Audio Mode, you'll have a panel in the middle of the screen called Sysprep, and this is to switch back to normal mode so that the first account can be set up. Everything is setup on that panel, when ready, hit "OK", and the system will restart and return back to OOBE. Use this once you are done with the system. Under this mode you can restart the system, and you'll be back to it. So if a driver needs restarting, don't worry, you'll be back to it, with Sysprep opened and configured as it was before.

 

Under Audit Mode, connect online if it's not already, then:

• install all drivers of the system
• make sure Windows is fully up-to-date
• make sure all is good under Device Manager
• Open the Store app, and check for updates on all apps (DO NOT INSTALL ADDITIONAL APPS)

 

 

Once all done, then simply go to Start > Settings > Update & Security > Activation, and from there you'll have the option to enter a product key, pick it, and enter Windows 7 product key. If the edition is right, it should activate just fine. If not, and you are sure the edition is correct then use "Get Help" app to chat with Microsoft and see how they can help you. Probably will give you a single use override code.

 

[RollyShed]

Do you want life to be simple?

Do you want him not to get viruses?

Do you want free and reliable?

Do you want it to be easy?

OK, only one way, install Linux Mint. It will have a browser, Firefox, and an office suite, LibreOffice by default.

Anything else needed? OK, all free.

My experience? About 30 users now using Linux. Questions? Sometimes but they are questions that would be asked for any system used.

One of the users who swapped over, running Windows for years then Linux Mint the next day and simply carrying on using the computer as if nothing had changed except it was now reliable and not getting viruses written by MS called updates..

[whm1974]

5 hours ago, RollyShed said:

Do you want life to be simple?

Do you want him not to get viruses?

Do you want free and reliable?

Do you want it to be easy?

OK, only one way, install Linux Mint. It will have a browser, Firefox, and an office suite, LibreOffice by default.

Anything else needed? OK, all free.

My experience? About 30 users now using Linux. Questions? Sometimes but they are questions that would be asked for any system used.

One of the users who swapped over, running Windows for years then Linux Mint the next day and simply carrying on using the computer as if nothing had changed except it was now reliable and not getting viruses written by MS called updates..

Stop the Hard Selling please. How long have you Been Using Linux? Are the 30 Linux Users by your Hand or just people you know who are using Linux?

 

I been using Linux since the early 2000's, after switching from BeOS.

[RollyShed]

14 hours ago, whm1974 said:

How long have you Been Using Linux?

 

I've been using Linux off and on for 20+ years and Mint continually for a more than a decade.

 

 

Are the 30 Linux Users by your Hand or just people you know who are using Linux?

The installations are ones I've done for people plus another dozen+ computers for general use. The installations are usually an SSD into a laptop (some are desktops) and their files and folders copied across to the new disk.

14 hours ago, whm1974 said:

 

 

[whm1974]

26 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

The installations are ones I've done for people plus another dozen+ computers for general use. The installations are usually an SSD into a laptop (some are desktops) and their files and folders copied across to the new disk.

Before I switched over to Linux from BeOS, used Windows 9x for games. Way before that: DOS/Win3.11 and OS/2 3 Warp.

 

I took Issue with your Hard Selling Linux.

[RollyShed]

5 hours ago, whm1974 said:

Before I switched over to Linux from BeOS, used Windows 9x for games. Way before that: DOS/Win3.11 and OS/2 3 Warp.

 

I took Issue with your Hard Selling Linux.

Hard sell? Maybe because Microsoft did so much damage to a computer I maintain, month after month before total destruction, that I don't have anything good to say about it. Sack all the test staff and then put out untested updates? And charge for your software? And make billions? And waste everyone's time.

Possibly the way I laid things out might look like a hard sell but it was done that way to make it easy to see the questions. Do you want this? Do you want that? Put things in a list makes it is easy to see things.

 

As for computers, before DOS I was working on PDP-8s and Data General Novas. No, I didn't get to meet Babbage.

[whm1974]

1 hour ago, RollyShed said:

Hard sell? Maybe because Microsoft did so much damage to a computer I maintain, month after month before total destruction, that I don't have anything good to say about it. Sack all the test staff and then put out untested updates? And charge for your software? And make billions? And waste everyone's time.

Possibly the way I laid things out might look like a hard sell but it was done that way to make it easy to see the questions. Do you want this? Do you want that? Put things in a list makes it is easy to see things.

 

As for computers, before DOS I was working on PDP-8s and Data General Novas. No, I didn't get to meet Babbage.

Some of that was a bit simple, that is all.

[wseaton]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:17 AM, whm1974 said:

Some of that was a bit simple, that is all.

Simple isn't the word I'm looking for. I've supported data centers full of Windows servers and literally hundred's of thousands of clients and don't have patience anymore for that type of nonsense. Every year Linux distro developers utterly fall over themselves to make 'Nix more like Windows while simultaneously bashing the product they are trying to emulate. Also, the correct argument is nobody runs operating systems. Adults run applications....what exactly are you going to do with a Linux install or Windows install minus apps. Nothing. Nobody runs operating systems. 

 

As for damaging computers (LOL), never seen windows do this, but had many a laptop trashed because Linux historically hasn't had the best support for proper thermal mgmt on mobile chipsets (cough xubuntu cough) until the past few years. 

 

Re- security: IoT devices are the biggest security threat on the planet on they are pretty much all running embedded Linux.  Don't get me started in ShellShock. Identity theft is just as likely to occur on a 'Nix browser as Edge running on Windows.

 

I've tried to push 'Nix distros for non profits, and while the shell's are getting slick and polished (certainly better than the Windows 8 metro dumpster fire) inevitably they end up with some gadget or plugin or app that doesn't run on 'Nix. For the record the BSDs in my experience have legit performance improvements on legacy hardware. All the lastest distros I've tried are just as bloated on Windows

 

 

[RollyShed]

1 hour ago, wseaton said:

As for damaging computers (LOL), never seen windows do this,

You are lucky, very lucky. Do some research and you will find 1/2 to 1 million Windows systems were destroyed in October 2018. And it kept happening. Yes, I have links to a number of articles plus the personal experience.

 

As for what is done with a reliable system, web browsing, accounting, music writing, documents, spreadsheets, audio recording and editing, video editing, etc. etc. All done with free and reliable software.

[GoodBytes]

13 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

You are lucky, very lucky. Do some research and you will find 1/2 to 1 million Windows systems were destroyed in October 2018. And it kept happening. Yes, I have links to a number of articles plus the personal experience.

 

As for what is done with a reliable system, web browsing, accounting, music writing, documents, spreadsheets, audio recording and editing, video editing, etc. etc. All done with free and reliable software.

I would like to know which issue you are talking about. I have many stories of people screw their Linus based OS just by updating or installing a program, even with a package manager. Not something you see under Windows from legitimate software. Let alone following guides online to fix a problem... mixed with a simple miss copy line and pasted (which the terminal just executes right away if the line return was also copied).

 

Windows has billions of users. So the numbers you mention is a drop in the bucket. Looking online I don't see any stories of computers being "destroyed" from a Windows update

 

[RollyShed]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I would like to know which issue you are talking about. I have many stories of people screw their Linus based OS just by updating or installing a program, even with a package manager. Not something you see under Windows from legitimate software. Let alone following guides online to fix a problem... mixed with a simple miss copy line and pasted (which the terminal just executes right away if the line return was also copied).

 

Windows has billions of users. So the numbers you mention is a drop in the bucket. Looking online I don't see any stories of computers being "destroyed" from a Windows update

 

Computers are not "destroyed", the system is corrupted / content destroyed / wiped / deleted.

 

The Windows case -

Every month in 2018 an update would remove screen drivers or printer drivers. These needed to be reinstalled.

October 2018, it wasn't booting so as backup, it was booted with Linux and everything was copied across to the Linux disk. The Windows disk was reconnected and it eventually booted up in Windows, having reverted to Win7 and deleted everything.

The Linux disk was reconnected, Windows disk removed and the user sat down at a going computer and carried on using it as if nothing had happened EXCEPT it was now reliable and has never had a problem since.

Now what is the cost to a user if there wasn't an IT person on site?

 

As for updating or installing apps to Linux, I've done dozens, hundreds(?) and not had a problem. OK, power down in the middle of an installation of an app might upset something but easy to fix (had one two days ago).

 

Not booting? Yes, I had one user and a short bit of code fixed that. In that case I fitted a newer disk as the one removed rattled which isn't what is wanted. The laptop was passed on to her (picked up off someone's driveway and to go to recycling) for $20 including the work of doing an installation.

 

You asked -

 

Updates are sent out in blocks so if you are unfortunate and are in the first block and get trashed, as was happening, you have to put up with it.
2016
http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2016/03/07/microsoft-monday-windows-10-update-deletes-apps-xbox-one-longevity-plan-minecraft-for-oculus-rift/#5c6f5e3f5388

2018
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/27/the-windows-10-october-update-is-still-breaking-things-you-can-deal-with-it-or-opt-for-a-chromebook/#7e14e22f2193193

https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/6/17944966/microsoft-windows-10-october-2018-update-documents-deleted-issues-windows-update-paused

https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-october-2018-update-file-deletion-bug-story

2020
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/02/19/new-windows-10-update-starts-causing-serious-problems/#2172a3f27a7e

2020
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/04/23/google-chrome-critical-security-exploit-windows-10-upgrade-warning-update-chrome-browser/#1c40c9fd5f8f

It was the October 2018 one that meant a change here for a user, changed to Linux Mint, as it had deleted everything on her Windows disk.

[whm1974]

22 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

I would like to know which issue you are talking about. I have many stories of people screw their Linus based OS just by updating or installing a program, even with a package manager. Not something you see under Windows from legitimate software. Let alone following guides online to fix a problem... mixed with a simple miss copy line and pasted (which the terminal just executes right away if the line return was also copied).

 

Windows has billions of users. So the numbers you mention is a drop in the bucket. Looking online I don't see any stories of computers being "destroyed" from a Windows update

With either OS, most problems are cause between the chair and KBM...

[GoodBytes]

33 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

2016
http://www.forbes.com/sites/amitchowdhry/2016/03/07/microsoft-monday-windows-10-update-deletes-apps-xbox-one-longevity-plan-minecraft-for-oculus-rift/#5c6f5e3f5388

Click-bait Forbes article. From the very source they refer, it says that due to compatibility issues with a build update, some programs may be uninstall for the successful installation of the OS version release. If the users keep their software updated, this is a non-issue. Microsoft has a public beta program to allow developers to test their software and how it behaves with upgrades. It's called Windows Insiders.

 

Expect software to be removed or stop working with the next release of Windows 11, where Microsoft killed off WMIC a marked as deprecated utility since XP (or was it Vista)... regardless, a long time ago. It finally gets the axed, forcing developers to do read the doc and make a proper implementation which will boost the application performance, and users experience with their system while their app is running.

 

33 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

2018
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kevinmurnane/2018/11/27/the-windows-10-october-update-is-still-breaking-things-you-can-deal-with-it-or-opt-for-a-chromebook/#7e14e22f2193193

https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/6/17944966/microsoft-windows-10-october-2018-update-documents-deleted-issues-windows-update-paused

https://www.windowscentral.com/windows-10-october-2018-update-file-deletion-bug-story

Documents were not deleted. The account failed to be loaded properly, and the user was under a temporary account. It may look like data was lost, but it wasn't.

That said, yes, it was a bug, and Microsoft provided professional data recovery service for free to anyone who data actually was deleted (I don't think they were any). Last I checked, you don't have this kind of service with Linux based OS when it screws up, even paid support doesn't offer this. 

 

Also, this only affected a minor set of users, and I have no heard of anyone needing the offered professional data recovery service. Seems that the affected users contacted Microsoft support, and instruction were given to get their data back (well fix the account issue).

 

That said, it was a reported issue on the Insider Program that got slip to the cracks. And Microsoft has made many improvements to the program to ensure such issue doesn't happen again (critical issues passing through cracks)... and it hasn't.

 

Under Linux distro world, if you are not Linus in visibility, your issues and suggestions are simply ignored. "You are using it wrong... " type of response is typically given, assuming you even get a response, or you get the helpful "Here is the source code, you fix it!"

 

 

33 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

2020
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/02/19/new-windows-10-update-starts-causing-serious-problems/#2172a3f27a7e

Temporary account was used. Data was not lost. It only affected some users who redirected their user folders to another location. Something that is very rare, and not recommended. (Redirect supported folders like Documents, Pictures, etc, instead)

 

That said, it's nice that Windows has plan B for many things to have a functioning system to help resolve the issue in the OS.

Something that I am not sure Linux distros have, beside just falling on the Terminal if xWindows environment fails to load for some reason.

 

33 minutes ago, RollyShed said:

2020
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2020/04/23/google-chrome-critical-security-exploit-windows-10-upgrade-warning-update-chrome-browser/#1c40c9fd5f8f

It was the October 2018 one that meant a change here for a user, changed to Linux Mint, as it had deleted everything on her Windows disk.

Google issue, not Microsoft. It doesn't affect Edge which uses Chromium.

Again, Microsoft has the Insider program, developers should be testing their applications, drivers and so on, and report to Microsoft issues. 

This has improved over the years, where you may have noticed at release notes that some updates aren't being issued to people until the culprit is fixed.

 

Maybe if Google would grow up, and start working with others, not only their products would benefits, but also the users.

It is well known Google attitude when it comes to anything related to Microsoft. Their is a reason why Google attempted to banned Chromium Edge users to its service/sites like they have done with Windows Phone, and took down third party apps on Windows Phone, but allow Android ones, refused to have Google Play Store with WSA and opted to make a streaming service app instead.

 

[pythonmegapixel]

 

I think OP's question was probably adequately answered by the first 4 replies, before all that nonsense about Linux being the "one way" to have an acceptable computing experience....

[RollyShed]

38 minutes ago, pythonmegapixel said:

 

I think OP's question was probably adequately answered by the first 4 replies, before all that nonsense about Linux being the "one way" to have an acceptable computing experience....

The question was, Windows or Linux.

My answer gave reasons, take them or leave them.

Then accusations about the answer. It was in a list. Did I have enough experience for that answer? Did I know what I was talking about?

 

I posted an answer that I have found works and works for more users / installations than the OP seems to have ever had experience with.

 

His friend needs something simple.
Something that won't have virus problems.
Will run on low spec computers.
Doesn't need a product key.

 

Does putting items in an easily read list constitute "Hard Sell"?

 

I hope I've complied with the request to have had enough personal experience with what I recommend. That probably I've known what a computer is and worked on them before most here were born.

Would mention of being called on by NASA a couple of times for help, improve the standing of my reply?

[Dat Guy]

On 2/4/2022 at 9:48 PM, whm1974 said:

Well my friend doesn't know much about Computers and always gets or has something with low specs.

I warmly recommend OpenBSD for low-spec computers, if there is no gaming involved. The system itself is really easy on the resources and they support a wide variety of lightweight desktop environments.

[whm1974]

9 hours ago, RollyShed said:

The question was, Windows or Linux.

My answer gave reasons, take them or leave them.

Then accusations about the answer. It was in a list. Did I have enough experience for that answer? Did I know what I was talking about?

 

I posted an answer that I have found works and works for more users / installations than the OP seems to have ever had experience with.

 

His friend needs something simple.
Something that won't have virus problems.
Will run on low spec computers.
Doesn't need a product key.

 

Does putting items in an easily read list constitute "Hard Sell"?

 

I hope I've complied with the request to have had enough personal experience with what I recommend. That probably I've known what a computer is and worked on them before most here were born.

Would mention of being called on by NASA a couple of times for help, improve the standing of my reply?

This was back in 2015. I since then only update that System a few times. AFAIK he isn't even using a computer ATM. His daughter for sure is using one. But she went up a to College or University to finish her degree.

 

My dad on the other hand is stubborn about keeping the Linux Distro I installed updated... So I have to do the updates when I'm there. Quite a few times I end up reinstalling due to him not doing the updates.

 

BTW I wasn't trying to insult you. I just thought your statements about Linux was a bit too simple.

[whm1974]

6 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

I warmly recommend OpenBSD for low-spec computers, if there is no gaming involved. The system itself is really easy on the resources and they support a wide variety of lightweight desktop environments.

I have no experience at all with OpenBSD or any of the other FOSS BSD OSes out there. A few times I tried to mess around with one of those, I found them to be noticeable slower then the Linux Distro I was using.

 

However Linux does has more developers and easier to get support.

[Dat Guy]

1 minute ago, whm1974 said:

I found them to be noticeable slower then the Linux Distro I was using.

 

As always, it depends on the particular system configuration, hardware et cetera.

And, of course, on the particular algorithms:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bsd-linux-eo2021&num=2

[whm1974]

19 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

 

As always, it depends on the particular system configuration, hardware et cetera.

And, of course, on the particular algorithms:

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=bsd-linux-eo2021&num=2

Well this was some years ago and another Computer. Remember Mandrake/Mandriva? I was trying to find a suitable replacement for that the time.

[Dat Guy]

1 minute ago, whm1974 said:

Remember Mandrake/Mandriva?

 

I used Mandrake in the 90s, for a week or so. I think Mageia still exists?