Linux sucks for gaming and this will probably never change

[igormp]

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Fair, I realise its not solely because of Nvidia and other factors are at play but Nvidia have played a role in the slow transition.

 

Sure, won't argue against that, but they're far from being the main culprit. Actually, there isn't someone you can properly point a finger to since there are many issues, and trying to move away from the status quo is always hard, specially when you break so much stuff along the way.

 

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Screen sharing is being transitioned away from the window manager entirely. Pipewire will be the default moving forward and at first glance that seems a little odd but it actually makes way more sense to bundle audio & video de/encoding together than it does to have your Window manager handle it. It moves everything in your streaming app into a single toolchain instead of pulling audio from alsa and video from X. XWayland is also a thing but relies on the developer to add support.

Yeah, indeed, the future looks bright (whenever it's 100% ready). I've been using pipewire with xorg and it simply worked OOTB, pretty cool.

 

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

My experience with Wayland has been flawless on everything I've ever tried except for KDE (and that is a KDE issue that is being fixed at the moment), I use Gnome on Wayland as my desktop on my gaming rig and my laptop (that has an Intel 10th gen i5 with iGPU).

Great, but that's still an anecdotal evidence (tbf, so is mine with Gnome on wayland with my 10th gen i7 laptop).

 

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Nouveau is based on Nvidias EGL, right? If yes then why is it almost useless for anything except rendering a desktop?

No, nouveau is integrated with mesa, so it also supports GBM. It actually works pretty ok for anything series 700 and back. With newer GPUs you're out of luck since you can't go past the base clocks after boot due to firmware signing, which means that performance is crap.

[Magmarock]

On 12/20/2021 at 10:42 AM, igormp said:

Interesting, I have trine 2 on steam and it works just fine. Worth noticing that I'm on arch with everything up to date.

 

I guess when you're trying to run stuff on your own without a manager (like steam, epic or any other store software), you end up needing to do everything by yourself.

Good luck trying to download an old-ass windows game and having to go around installing tons of older dependencies (such as .net and others that you mentioned).

It's really no trouble at all to get dot net and other dependencies because Windows does manage dependencies better than Linux. This is because there's really only one version of Windows and it's been like this since the DOS days. But this isn't a Windows/NT VS Linux post. Linux fan boys often do this when they are out of options. But say you're right that Steam/Proton is this easy to use. I thought the whole point of Linux was freedom; if so why does Valve get a free pass? With Steam you don't even own any of your games and everything you can say about Microsoft you could also say about Valve. Valve spy on you, own your games and if could would force you to use Steam OS. Yet the "Linux gaming community" (What a joke that is) constantly defends them. So the only way I can get games to work well with Linux is through Steam and you don't see a problem with that?

[igormp]

6 hours ago, Magmarock said:

Windows does manage dependencies better than Linux

Excuse me?

6 hours ago, Magmarock said:

This is because there's really only one version of Windows and it's been like this since the DOS days

Are you joking? You must be.

6 hours ago, Magmarock said:

I thought the whole point of Linux was freedom

It is not, I couldn't give a care about that; you're going offtopic with this silly argument.

6 hours ago, Magmarock said:

So the only way I can get games to work well with Linux is through Steam and you don't see a problem with that?

No, I don't, and I didn't see anyone complaining about windows spying, owning stuff or yada yada in this thread until now.

 

I use linux because it makes my job easier and all of the software I need works better there, games are a bonus and work without problems for me for the rare case when I want to play something.

 

But my cases are my own and I wouldn't recommend linux to anyone else unless they have a similar use case/needs. If you like windows so much, keep using it, no one is forcing you to use linux as far as I know.

[Magmarock]

43 minutes ago, igormp said:

Are you joking? You must be.

Okay there's been multiple version of Windows, but I'm referring to it's DLL system. It was designed with forwards and backwards compatibility in mind. System32 houses all your 64Bit DLL (yes system32 holds your 65Bit DLL files) But programs also have their own.Because of this DLL system it's better at running older stuff.

 

 

46 minutes ago, igormp said:

It is not, I couldn't give a care about that; you're going offtopic with this silly argument

Luckily there's a jump to post option so people can see the context.
 

 

47 minutes ago, igormp said:

I use linux because it makes my job easier and all of the software I need works better there, games are a bonus and work without problems for me for the rare case when I want to play something.

 

But my cases are my own and I wouldn't recommend linux to anyone else unless they have a similar use case/needs. If you like windows so much, keep using it, no one is forcing you to use linux as far as I know.

What the hell are you doing here then! Did you not read the first post? This is about GAMING on Linux. First you go off topic than take post I made out of context and accuse me of going off topic.

[Magmarock]

I just realized why I'm getting al  this drama. A mod moved this thread to the non Windows section IE the Linux fan boy section of the site. Can't blame him, but it is the reason.

[Bombastinator]

8 hours ago, Magmarock said:

I just realized why I'm getting al  this drama. A mod moved this thread to the non Windows section IE the Linux fan boy section of the site. Can't blame him, but it is the reason.

There’s a Linux fanboy section?  I haven’t run a Linux machine in 15 years myself.  I think that there are fanbois for all OSes and manufacturers more or less without exception.  Linux fanbois, windows fanbois, apple fanbois etc... commodore64 fanbois even.  When windows fanbois feel threatened by one of the other OSes, they go after it.  It’s not an even unusual behavior.  The other fanbois will do it too.

[Magmarock]

7 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

There’s a Linux fanboy section?  I haven’t run a Linux machine in 15 years myself.  I think that there are fanbois for all OSes and manufacturers more or less without exception.  Linux fanbois, windows fanbois, apple fanbois etc... commodore64 fanbois even.  When windows fanbois feel threatened by one of the other OSes, they go after it.  It’s not an even unusual behavior.  The other fanbois will do it too.

Linux fanboys are... well they're special they're a bit like Half Life fan boys.

[Bombastinator]

5 hours ago, Magmarock said:

Linux fanboys are... well they're special they're a bit like Half Life fan boys.

Every group has their own thing.

[apostlkpl]

GNU/Linux distros will never be a serious candidate for a gaming platform. I don't get how Valve feels positive with the steamdeck, especially since SteamOS 2.0 is a failed and abandoned project.

 

Anyway, the reason that desktop Linux sucks as a gaming platform is that gaming requires most of the code used in Games, (game-related) Tools and Drivers to be closed source. This is done because of competitive issues (for example Nvidia drivers) or to prevent cheating. That being said, Linux is the greatest OS when it comes to Server use, because most tools when it comes to networking are open source anyway.

 

It's not like that was an accident or something. Microsoft did not accidentally become number one on PCs for no reason. MS provides a stable API/ABI for Windows, thorough documentation, official Frameworks, SDKs, etc. On top of that, they offer the most incredible backwards compatibility even seen on computing (they have to though, because of Windows being the most used OS in most industries).

 

GNU/Linux on the other hand, ties software compilation to specific kernel and libc versions, a single tiny change in those versions break everything, and needs every app re-compiled. This is not a problem for open source apps (most distros re-compile packages automatically), but is a hell for maintaining closed-source software. That's why many companies that started to release Linux binaries for their (closed source) apps gave up eventually. To be fair, Flatpak/Snap tries to fix this problem.

 

Even when it comes to the kernel, Linux was never made with the intention of using closed source drivers. It works best when it gets to work with all required drivers within the kernel. Even closed source drivers are kind of a temporary fix, as loading modules is not recommended! Even Linus Torvalds himself said that closed source binaries are NOT welcome, and whoever chooses to uses them are on their own [trying to find the source for that].******

 

Now, as a gaming developer or a software company, would you choose a hostile environment like Linux, or a welcoming one like Windows for your Game releases?

 

 

Disclaimer: Emphasis on "GNU/Linux" throughout the post. The kernel as it is, can be useful for "Linux-based" projects like Android, that fixes most of said problems (with the exception of drivers, that's why you don't get Android upgrades indefinitely on your phone, hardware manufacturers like Mediatek or Qualcomm don't bother to make new drivers every time the kernel changes).

 

 

****EDIT:

"In the Linux kernel development community, Linus Torvalds has made strong statements on the issue of binary-only modules, asserting: "I refuse to even consider tying my hands over some binary-only module", and continuing: "I want people to know that when they use binary-only modules, it's THEIR problem."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_device_driver

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, apostlkpl said:

GNU/Linux distros will never be a serious candidate for a gaming platform. I don't get how Valve feels positive with the steamdeck, especially since SteamOS 2.0 is a failed and abandoned project.

 

Anyway, the reason that desktop Linux sucks as a gaming platform is that gaming requires most of the code used in Games, (game-related) Tools and Drivers to be closed source. This is done because of competitive issues (for example Nvidia drivers) or to prevent cheating. That being said, Linux is the greatest OS when it comes to Server use, because most tools when it comes to networking are open source anyway.

 

It's not like that was an accident or something. Microsoft did not accidentally become number one on PCs for no reason. MS provides a stable API/ABI for Windows, thorough documentation, official Frameworks, SDKs, etc. On top of that, they offer the most incredible backwards compatibility even seen on computing (they have to though, because of Windows being the most used OS in most industries).

 

GNU/Linux on the other hand, ties software compilation to specific kernel and libc versions, a single tiny change in those versions break everything, and needs every app re-compiled. This is not a problem for open source apps (most distros re-compile packages automatically), but is a hell for maintaining closed-source software. That's why many companies that started to release Linux binaries for their (closed source) apps gave up eventually. To be fair, Flatpak/Snap tries to fix this problem.

 

Even when it comes to the kernel, Linux was never made with the intention of using closed source drivers. It works best when it gets to work with all required drivers within the kernel. Even closed source drivers are kind of a temporary fix, as loading modules is not recommended! Even Linus Torvalds himself said that closed source binaries are NOT welcome, and whoever chooses to uses them are on their own [trying to find the source for that].

 

Now, as a gaming developer or a software company, would you choose a hostile environment like Linux, or a welcoming one like Windows for your Game releases?

 

 

Disclaimer: Emphasis on "GNU/Linux" throughout the post. The kernel as it is, can be useful for "Linux-based" projects like Android, that fixes most of said problems (with the exception of drivers, that's why you don't get Android upgrades indefinitely on your phone, hardware manufacturers like Mediatek or Qualcomm don't bother to make new drivers every time the kernel changes).

I think never is a mighty long time.   The work is like “all” or “every” and has to be used judiciously. Not right now?  Perhaps.  In the near future? See right now.  In the far future? I withhold judgement. I think “might never” is more accurate than “will never”. While both Linux and windows are still moving forward Linux does seem to be moving somewhat faster in that direction. It started way behind though.  That it is as close as it is now implies it will eventually catch up with and pass windows.   I don’t know when “eventually” is though.  I do not feel the open/closed source thing is a real argument currently though it once was.  One way around that one is envelopes which is a years old solution.  There may be others. Linux can deal with code blobs.  It always could but not always easily.  It’s getting easier. 

[Magmarock]

3 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Every group has their own thing.

oh no no no no no no no no this is... this is different.

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, Magmarock said:

oh no no no no no no no no this is... this is different.

Of course.  But they all are. 

[Magmarock]

1 hour ago, apostlkpl said:

GNU/Linux distros will never be a serious candidate for a gaming platform. I don't get how Valve feels positive with the steamdeck, especially since SteamOS 2.0 is a failed and abandoned project.

 

Anyway, the reason that desktop Linux sucks as a gaming platform is that gaming requires most of the code used in Games, (game-related) Tools and Drivers to be closed source. This is done because of competitive issues (for example Nvidia drivers) or to prevent cheating. That being said, Linux is the greatest OS when it comes to Server use, because most tools when it comes to networking are open source anyway.

 

It's not like that was an accident or something. Microsoft did not accidentally become number one on PCs for no reason. MS provides a stable API/ABI for Windows, thorough documentation, official Frameworks, SDKs, etc. On top of that, they offer the most incredible backwards compatibility even seen on computing (they have to though, because of Windows being the most used OS in most industries).

 

GNU/Linux on the other hand, ties software compilation to specific kernel and libc versions, a single tiny change in those versions break everything, and needs every app re-compiled. This is not a problem for open source apps (most distros re-compile packages automatically), but is a hell for maintaining closed-source software. That's why many companies that started to release Linux binaries for their (closed source) apps gave up eventually. To be fair, Flatpak/Snap tries to fix this problem.

 

Even when it comes to the kernel, Linux was never made with the intention of using closed source drivers. It works best when it gets to work with all required drivers within the kernel. Even closed source drivers are kind of a temporary fix, as loading modules is not recommended! Even Linus Torvalds himself said that closed source binaries are NOT welcome, and whoever chooses to uses them are on their own [trying to find the source for that].******

 

Now, as a gaming developer or a software company, would you choose a hostile environment like Linux, or a welcoming one like Windows for your Game releases?

 

 

Disclaimer: Emphasis on "GNU/Linux" throughout the post. The kernel as it is, can be useful for "Linux-based" projects like Android, that fixes most of said problems (with the exception of drivers, that's why you don't get Android upgrades indefinitely on your phone, hardware manufacturers like Mediatek or Qualcomm don't bother to make new drivers every time the kernel changes).

 

 

****EDIT:

"In the Linux kernel development community, Linus Torvalds has made strong statements on the issue of binary-only modules, asserting: "I refuse to even consider tying my hands over some binary-only module", and continuing: "I want people to know that when they use binary-only modules, it's THEIR problem."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprietary_device_driver

Th is basically the argument that I was trying to make but MUCH BETTER! Thank you good sir this has made my day.

[cretsiah]

@Magmarock @apostlkpl

 

- the stability of windows( doesnt matter the version) is questionable, as can be googled, if you are one of the fortunate ones that never ran into trouble your in luck ( i was one of these people until windows 10 came out.

- windows 10 made installing older games from CD/DVD a choice between security compromisation or re-buying your entire catalogue of games from online stores or using a back-up which attempted to circumvent certain DRM protocols (also considered piracy in some countries) and using a no-cd key file in the game and thats if it would even let you look at the game disk.

 

comparing GOG's way of doing things to Steam's is a tad bit unfair.

most of GOG's games are run through pre-configured dosbox meant to run on windows, while steam uses pre-configured wine, kinda like chalk and cheese.

- i did try one so called native linux port of a game in GOG and it didnt do well, it actually worked out better to off-line install under wine, so then it became a pre-configured dosbox game inside a pre-configured wine (windows)  enviroment and thats kinda getting messy and complex, but newer systems are so fast they wouldnt notice.

 

AAA games prior to launchers is one thing ( aka Far Cry 1 and 2) but most current ones really do need them if you want access to the special extra's they came out with, and i dont mean the expansion packs.

 

by my reckoning GOG still has a long way to go to catch up to STEAM in this area.

 

[kazetsukai]

On 12/25/2021 at 12:25 PM, Magmarock said:

I just realized why I'm getting al  this drama. A mod moved this thread to the non Windows section IE the Linux fan boy section of the site. Can't blame him, but it is the reason.

Bit of a long post here. Full disclaimer: I don't use Windows for anything, haven't since 2004. Been on Linux since on all devices, and I used to "evangelize", I don't anymore. Its idiotic. Which is why I don't see why you feel compelled to post this thread at all, really. Its filled with verifiable falsehoods, including the title.

 

You see, having used Linux since 2004 I know a thing or two about how gaming on Linux has progressed/evolved over the years. And things have changed. The largest change was by far the introduction of DXVK, since which problematic games have been identified and their issues tracked at a highly accelerated pace compared to before. Which came after Proton, and Steam for Linux native.

 

What we (Linux users) used to use:

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1922

What we now use:

https://www.protondb.com/app/782330

 

It is not reasonable to claim that improvements have not been made or that things haven't changed significantly- in fact change is moving at a rather extreme rate. We went from 60% or so of DX9 titles and 10% of DX10 titles working, often with bugs and guaranteed performance problems a year before the release of DX11 to 90% of DX10 games working after the introduction of DXVK mere months later, only without the major performance issues. The same body of work- shimming Vulkan under DX9 picked up virtually all of the older titles and solved the performance issues across the board.

 

I've filed bugs against obscure games in proton/github and have seen those games fixed in proton shortly after. One of the challenges Linux has faced historically for gaming is tracking issues- developers can't really fix what they don't know about. Those issue tracking bottlenecks have been addressed, developers hired at all portions of the stack (wine, kernel, drivers) and development has accelerated.

 

I can easily understand the argument that the progress made is insufficient for you, or gamers in general. But the idea that "this will probably never change" is absurd- you see change happening every day of every week. You see Valve developers collaborating with Intel/AMD/NVIDIA driver developers on issues in the bug trackers, you see issues opening, getting triaged, investigated, worked on and closed. The process is open and transparent, and the pace at which work is getting done is quite high.

 

There's a lot of what developers like myself call "technical debt" in Linux that really hinder game development- Wayland has taken far too long to get anywhere, let alone where it needs to be if Linux hopes to be competitive in terms of gaming performance and battery life... arguably the fault of which lies at NVIDIA's feet (their insistence on using EGLStreams instead of GBM like the rest of the industry), but on the same token many debates like these have already been resolved with the introduction of things like PulseAudio- where we no longer have to dick around with ALSA/OSS and the like, and struggle with basics like software audio mixing.

 

Your comments on Linux fanboyism / the unwillingness for Linux proponents to take criticism, etc, that's all valid. People need to not get so worked up and defensive about their choices. But on the flip side, that applies to you. A lot of the problem with folks like you on Linux comes down to ignorance, not the capabilities of the OS. Most of the issues LTT ran into in their video, I wouldn't have, because I know my way around Linux.... I run Arch, so I understand all of the components of the OS and how to make them work together well. I'm happy to write config files and do other technical tasks to tune the desktop to my exact preferences... as well as write my own programs. Which is the real difference between most Linux users and Windows users. We understand the technical aspects of the OS- kernel space versus user space, APIs, and the subsystems that make up graphics, sound, etc as individual pieces to the pie, and how to glue them together. Windows hides all that from you... an advantage for you, but a crippling weakness for people like me who tinker, and not only for fun.

 

As much as Linux may not be for you OP, Windows just isn't for others, even for gaming... Certainly Windows does not seem worth the headache from my perspective- I'd rather be able to go to GitHub and file a bug, read through logs to get meaningful error output than some nondescript modal "Error -31" or some nonsense that conceals the nature of an issue, rendering me powerless to contribute towards a solution. I'd rather have a solid, consistently performant desktop and deal with the occasional buggy game than the other way around... the whole reason I quit Windows in '04 because I had built an expensive gaming rig and the OS (XP at the time) was constantly getting subverted/invaded by malware, and grew less and less stable every day post install. After the 3rd reinstall I was done and made the switch. Not to say Windows hasn't gotten better, and not to say there wasn't a huge amount of pain in the learning curve. But you couldn't pay me to go back, and most of my games "just work" now via Steam.

 

I sympathize with many of your complaints in the opposing direction. Any time I've had to sit at a Windows machine, I've felt pretty helpless. Nothing is where I'd expect it to be, nothing behaves as I'd want, and the UI forces me to do things in a very roundabout, BS way, and I can't perform basic tasks I do daily on Linux. If you spent time to learn Linux I guarantee you'd find some things you'd prefer over here, for sure... but the effort might not be worth the reward in your case. Not worth it for me to look at Windows again either.

 

Be happy with what you have, I am, and with the progress being made.

[Magmarock]

On 12/27/2021 at 10:14 AM, cretsiah said:

the stability of windows( doesnt matter the version) is questionable, as can be googled, if you are one of the fortunate ones that never ran into trouble your in luck ( i was one of these people until windows 10 came out.

My god this entire post is full of so much stupid I don't even know where to start. First the stability of Windows, absolutely matters on both the version and whoever is using it. For example I myself use Enterprise LTSC. It's highly stable and highly compatible with with software. It is not luck that keeps me out of trouble but experience. I don't flip coins or prey to the heaves. I use my expertise to keep my PC in check.

 

 

On 12/27/2021 at 10:14 AM, cretsiah said:

windows 10 made installing older games from CD/DVD a choice between security compromisation or re-buying your entire catalogue of games from online stores or using a back-up which attempted to circumvent certain DRM protocols (also considered piracy in some countries) and using a no-cd key file in the game and thats if it would even let you look at the game disk.

If you're referring to things like Starforce DRM than Microsoft was well and truly on the side of good to shit-list that thing. It's hardly Microsoft's fault that the games industry uses destructive DRM in their products but once I found out that one of my games had Starforce in it I shredded the disc. As for using no-cd keys, just do it. If you own the game legit than DRM is not something you should put up with and you should just yeet it. For the record I don't condone piracy but disabling DRM I am 100% in favor of.

 

 

On 12/27/2021 at 10:14 AM, cretsiah said:

comparing GOG's way of doing things to Steam's is a tad bit unfair.

most of GOG's games are run through pre-configured dosbox meant to run on windows, while steam uses pre-configured wine, kinda like chalk and cheese.

Wrong, most GOG games are not DOS based so how could they be using Dosbox?

 

 

On 12/27/2021 at 10:14 AM, cretsiah said:

- i did try one so called native linux port of a game in GOG and it didnt do well, it actually worked out better to off-line install under wine

That's knida my point. You'd expect the native stuff to work better wouldn't ya.

 

On 12/27/2021 at 10:14 AM, cretsiah said:

by my reckoning GOG still has a long way to go to catch up to STEAM in this area.

This is not a "Steam vs GOG" or "Linux VS NTFS" argument. This is a "gaming sucks on Linux, maybe we should fix it" discussion. I don't mean to come off as rude but your whole post was full of so much misinformation that I took offense to it.

[Magmarock]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

I don't use Windows for anything, haven't since 2004

Well that's gonna be a bit of a problem. If you're going to talk about how gaming on Windows compares to Linux or anything else, it helps to know a thing or two about it.

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

You see, having used Linux since 2004 I know a thing or two about how gaming on Linux has progressed/evolved over the years. And things have changed. The largest change was by far the introduction of DXVK, since which problematic games have been identified and their issues tracked at a highly accelerated pace compared to before. Which came after Proton, and Steam for Linux native.

 

What we (Linux users) used to use:

https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=1922

What we now use:

https://www.protondb.com/app/782330

Since my first post I decided to fire up Ubuntu on real hardware and give Proton a try. To my surprise it actually worked pretty well. However! I still don't agree that gaming has gotten better on Linux, at least not in a way that I would consider good. Proton is a part of Steam and can not be used without it. Steam is DRM and belongs to Valve corp.

 

The problem is that rather than Steam/Proton being an extension of Linux; Linux is an extension of Steam thus an extension of Valve. If you're the kind of person who loves Valve and think they can do no wrong, then I'm wasting my time. Otherwise, if you see things more critically, you'll understand how Valve in many ways is a bigger threat than Microsoft.

 

If the only way to game on Linux is through Vavle than that actually cuts off a lot of options for gamers who don't like using Steam.

 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

I can easily understand the argument that the progress made is insufficient for you, or gamers in general. But the idea that "this will probably never change" is absurd- you see change happening every day of every week. You see Valve developers collaborating with Intel/AMD/NVIDIA driver developers on issues in the bug trackers

I'm hopping that my responses to your other comments will put things into prospective. The only progress that's been made favors Steam. Outside of that Linux is still where it was 10 years ago.

 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

Your comments on Linux fanboyism / the unwillingness for Linux proponents to take criticism, etc, that's all valid. People need to not get so worked up and defensive about their choices. But on the flip side, that applies to you. A lot of the problem with folks like you on Linux comes down to ignorance, not the capabilities of the OS.

On the double flip side, everything I'm saying about the community also applies to you as well. It's not ignorance that holds Linux back it's arrogance. I have no doubt that the Linux kernel could be used to make a decent gaming platform. However the community refuses to get out of it's own way and let closed source software thrive on the system. I'm including you when I say this. Looking at the progress of Steam and reading as as progress towards Linux as a while is not a good sign. If proton could easily be used without Steam and by that I mean without even having to install it. That would be real progress.

 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

Most of the issues LTT ran into in their video, I wouldn't have, because I know my way around Linux.... I run Arch, so I understand all of the components of the OS and how to make them work together well.

Than I'm afraid you've missed the point entirely. It doesn't matter how well you use Linux. If Luke and Sebastian has this kind of trouble getting it to work than the everyday game stands no chance. It's also worth noting as mentioned before their problems started as soon as they went off Steam. This is why putting all your eggs in one basket is a bad idea.

 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

Which is the real difference between most Linux users and Windows users. We understand the technical aspects of the OS- kernel space versus user space, APIs, and the subsystems that make up graphics, sound, etc as individual pieces to the pie, and how to glue them together. Windows hides all that from you... an advantage for you, but a crippling weakness for people like me who tinker, and not only for fun.

Actually, I'm gonna have to stop you right there. One of the biggest misconceptions of the Linux community especially about themselves, is having a better understanding of how operating systems work. This is that arrogance I was talking about. THEY DON'T! They really, really don't. If they did, Linux Desktop distributions wouldn't suck so much. If you have to tell people how smart you are, then you're not very smart. It's the results that do the talking. In all my life in dealing with computers I've never known a community of nerds and geeks to act so high and mighty while demonstrably demonstrating not knowing anything about anything.

The workshop I worked at had a rule that while humorous, had a serious undertone. It went like this

If you tried to fix it yourself $10
If you want to watch $20
If you want to help $40
If you think you know better, fix it yourself.

In the world of IT, there is nothing worse than than someone who think they know more than they really do. If you think you know more than a Windows user because you use Linux instead than I got news for you. You don't. You might know more about Linux, but you do not know more about Windows.

 

 

 

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

As much as Linux may not be for you OP, Windows just isn't for others, even for gaming... Certainly Windows does not seem worth the headache from my perspective

I am not saying Windows is for everyone, nor am I saying Linux doesn't have it place. What I am saying is

"Linux is not for gamers."

 

On 12/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, kazetsukai said:

I sympathize with many of your complaints in the opposing direction. Any time I've had to sit at a Windows machine, I've felt pretty helpless. Nothing is where I'd expect it to be, nothing behaves as I'd want, and the UI forces me to do things in a very roundabout, BS way, and I can't perform basic tasks I do daily on Linux. If you spent time to learn Linux I guarantee you'd find some things you'd prefer over here, for sure... but the effort might not be worth the reward in your case. Not worth it for me to look at Windows again either.

What do you expect, you haven't used Windows in almost 20 years. Windows is one of the most technical pieces of software ever made and the interface is a complete mess and a half. It's actually things like Ubuntu that are easy and simple. But that is besides the point. I think it's fair to say that when it comes to Windows you are helpless. You're as helpless as someones grandma who has never used a computer before. This is exactly why you shouldn't be giving Windows users shit, and acting like you're more technically minded then they are. The thing with Windows is because it has things like the DLL system, regedit and API's like dot net and direct X. It has infrastructure that facilitate the forwards compatibility of closed source software. Windows is not easy to use, but it facilitates software production in such a way that allows it to run almost every program in existence.

My complaints about Linux are less to do with Linux itself because I think it's pretty good, (when it's not used for gaming.) and more to do with people such as yourself that think using Linux gives you an advantage when in actuality, it only limited what games you can play and what you can do with Windows. You now have the same technical knowledge as a retired grandmother who never used a computer in her life. Not a good tried in my opinion.But if you want to play lots of games and you don't want to deal with the technical headache of Windows, there is a solution. Use a gaming console. They are much simpler and unlike Linux they are a great choice of platform for gaming.

[delph]

41 minutes ago, Magmarock said:

Proton is a part of Steam and can not be used without it. Steam is DRM and belongs to Valve corp.

[...]

However the community refuses to get out of it's own way and let closed source software thrive on the system.

bro

 

If you want Proton off of Steam - did you try Lutris?

 

Also...Here's an entire article with several options. You probably could have read that before coming on here with such vitriol.

 

I don't get it, dude. Are you actively trying to encourage people to use Windows, Consoles, or just to not use Linux? It's wild. Most people who disagree with you are just saying "use whatever you like - it all has drawbacks and advantages".

[Magmarock]

1 hour ago, delph said:

bro

 

If you want Proton off of Steam - did you try Lutris?

 

Also...Here's an entire article with several options. You probably could have read that before coming on here with such vitriol.

 

I don't get it, dude. Are you actively trying to encourage people to use Windows, Consoles, or just to not use Linux? It's wild. Most people who disagree with you are just saying "use whatever you like - it all has drawbacks and advantages".

Yes I've tried Lutris, it's garbage. What prompted this? Well it was the Luke and Sebastian Linux challenge. I didn't like how they were tip towing around the issue being too afraid to offend a bunch of Linux geeks on the internet. But then ended up getting attacked for it anyway by the community. You people are toxic and are the main reason Windows users don't want to switch. They rather deal with Microsoft than this.

[delph]

I honestly don't see it. Distros are mobilizing on the feedback and the comments of those videos are full of people saying the criticisms of Linux are fair. If they were tip-toeing, they would have cut Linus confirming the deletion of his desktop environment and not reading the error message, which is just about the only thing in those videos that might give Linux an unfair image (but still, the problem was legitimate and also - has been fixed.)

 

As for the Linux community, this thread is full of people trying to be reasonable with you and meet you in the middle. You can read back and see a few people even apologize for digging into you so hard, only for you to shit on the community further. The Manjaro forums and Linux Mint chats have been generally positive about the videos.

 

But this has all been told to you already.

Either you're uninterested in that and prefer to be angry at a community you've built up in your head, or you just actually can't understand that some people can take feedback constructively - I think your posts here show that inability.

[AkIonSight]

I wanna come back to this post in 5 to 10 years and prove him wrong af about the "never will be part"

 

 

[flindeberg]

On 12/24/2021 at 5:21 PM, igormp said:

Blaming it all on nvidia sounds dumb to me, specially since you have both gnome and kde working on wayland on nvidia for a reasonable time now.

Nah, the Nvidia driver doesn't handle anything out of the ordinary, so the statement "working" is at worst false and at best quite a modification of the truth. You can for example have a look at https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/wayland-hangs-on-display-rotation-addition-removal-and-display-sleep/185149/10 and the statement "No, currently this won’t fix." (meaning they won't fix it). Sure, you can get a single display laptop working, but the driver is far from being workstation ready.

[flindeberg]

On 12/26/2021 at 7:03 PM, apostlkpl said:

MS provides a stable API/ABI for Windows, thorough documentation, official Frameworks, SDKs, etc.

Woha, this is quite a strong statement. Care to back that up? Especially the "stable ABI" in conjunction with "thorough documentation"? This sounds closer to a marketing ploy than the reality of low-level developers.

[Bombastinator]

4 hours ago, flindeberg said:

Nah, the Nvidia driver doesn't handle anything out of the ordinary, so the statement "working" is at worst false and at best quite a modification of the truth. You can for example have a look at https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/wayland-hangs-on-display-rotation-addition-removal-and-display-sleep/185149/10 and the statement "No, currently this won’t fix." (meaning they won't fix it). Sure, you can get a single display laptop working, but the driver is far from being workstation ready.

So they’ll release a partially functioning driver as binary only but won’t finish it?  Wow.  Won’t finish it themselves, won’t allow anyone else to.  I’m not surprised apple refuses to deal with them

[apostlkpl]

5 hours ago, flindeberg said:

Woha, this is quite a strong statement. Care to back that up? Especially the "stable ABI" in conjunction with "thorough documentation"? This sounds closer to a marketing ploy than the reality of low-level developers.

To be clear, I am NOT a developer. That being said, Windows is generally much much easier to work with than Linux. That is, as a desktop system, meaning GNU/Linux distros. Not "Linux-based" systems like Android or ChromeOS (I don't consider those Linux distros, but merely OSs based on Linux kernel).

 

GNU/Linux distros make it hard for developers to work with, or more correctly to keep up. Unless they make their driver/software open source, they have to update their binaries constantly against new kernel and libc versions.

 

If we are talking about specific uses, such as creating open source drivers for the Linux kernel, or closed source drivers for a fixed version of the kernel (for example Android ROMs), yes, Linux might be easy to work with. Maybe easier than Windows, I wouldn't know.

 

BUT, when we talk about commercial software and computer peripherals, Windows is much much better for developers, as proven by reality.