Are Emacs and VIM still in use?

[whm1974]

So when I start with Linux in ~early 2000's I encountered both Emacs and VIM, and thought how quaint text editors from before UNIX... On modern x86 hardware no less. Both should been replaced by something better...

 

Just checked: Websites from both of them. Download if you wish. I rather use Nano myself for a CLI text editor. How widely being used still?

[da na]

Was about to say "Last time I saw an eMac was 2018, at the Challenger Space Center" then I realized you meant the software.

Yes, still around. I wouldn't think it sees much use though...

[trag1c]

You still see guys in the software development world using VIM or Emacs. Not super common but the odd guy will use it. They're still arguably some of the most powerful text editor tools once you get past the learning curve.

[whm1974]

18 minutes ago, Mel0nMan said:

Was about to say "Last time I saw an eMac was 2018, at the Challenger Space Center" then I realized you meant the software.

Yes, still around. I wouldn't think it sees much use though...

I forgotten those existed...

[rikitikitavi]

Never heard of any of them until accidentally stumbling on https://missing.csail.mit.edu (2020 class) this year and learning basic Vim... after that - a deep dive into youtube blackhole of vi-emacs world... And that is after years in uni, and finishing cs degree lol

Nano was the editor for those rear occasions I had to use text editor in terminal.

 

Now I huff and puff every time I can't use some of my vim bindings in some apps lol

 

[whm1974]

2 minutes ago, rikitikitavi said:

Now I huff and puff every time I can't use some of my vim bindings in some apps lol

Vim bindings only exist due to cheap dumb terminals not having such things Arrow and Function Keys to move the Cursor among other things.

[rikitikitavi]

2 hours ago, whm1974 said:

Vim bindings only exist due to cheap dumb terminals not having such things Arrow and Function Keys to move the Cursor among other things.

And these limitations created smart and convenient way of traversing text. True, because of that it has a slight learning curve to get to a "comfortable/generic" level, without GUI/mouse to ease it. However, I would argue that it is not more difficult than learning several new shortcuts.

 

* the True statement is for those who are willing to learn or at least who can touch type, for everyone else it is an unnecessary hell.

 

Edit:

I mean there are many useful shortcuts in macOS eliminating the need for Home/End/PageUp/Down and some other keys, by using modifiers, and it is very convenient. Like jumping words with Alt , going to beginning/end of line with CMD, or deleting with Fn-Backspace, etc. I believe some of them are also possible on Windows. However, it is so much more pleasing to go to the exact line you need without tapping down several times in VIm, or jump between parentheses.

Edited December 1, 2021 by rikitikitavi

[maplepants]

On 12/1/2021 at 4:24 AM, rikitikitavi said:

macOS eliminating the need for Home/End/PageUp/Down and some other keys, by using modifiers, and it is very convenient

I use the emacs bindings in macOS all the time, and love them. But I'm still a vim user because either it or vi are installed on all my servers at home and it's included in Ubuntu Server by default which is what we mostly use at my work.

 

I think it just comes down to what you're used to. I can imagine that if emacs were the standard I got used to, I'd never install vim on anything.

[whm1974]

3 hours ago, maplepants said:

I use the emacs bindings in macOS all the time, and love them. But I'm still a vim user because either it or vi are installed on all my servers at home and it's included in Ubuntu Server by default which is what we mostly use at my work.

 

I think it just comes down to what you're used to. I can imagine that if emacs were the standard I got used to, I'd never install vim on anything.

Aside from Keyboards with less keys then TKL one have, this wouldn't be all that useful. OLD DOS games using DOSBox for i.e. I'm enjoying Bane of the Cosmic Forge ATM. Arrows are needed to move around.

[maplepants]

6 minutes ago, whm1974 said:

Aside from Keyboards with less keys then TKL one have, this wouldn't be all that useful.

My keyboard has arrow keys, but the emacs bindings are still super useful. "Home" is the beginning of the document, "⌃+A" takes you to the beginning of your line, "⌃+E" takes you to the end of the line, and "End" takes you to the end of the document. Then you've still got the arrows for single character movement and "⌃+←" or "⌃+→" to move by word.

 

I use all of these keyboard shortcuts every day.

[whm1974]

12 minutes ago, maplepants said:

My keyboard has arrow keys, but the emacs bindings are still super useful. "Home" is the beginning of the document, "⌃+A" takes you to the beginning of your line, "⌃+E" takes you to the end of the line, and "End" takes you to the end of the document. Then you've still got the arrows for single character movement and "⌃+←" or "⌃+→" to move by word.

 

I use all of these keyboard shortcuts every day.

60# and 70# Keyboards don't have any Keys to left of the Backspace and Enter Keys. So....

[rikitikitavi]

8 hours ago, maplepants said:

⌃+A" takes you to the beginning of your line

Since you actively use CTRL, did you rebind it to CapsLock or different position? I find the original position awkward. Also… brrrr, this shortcut rubs me the wrong way lol

 

8 hours ago, whm1974 said:

60# and 70# Keyboards don't have any Keys to left of the Backspace and Enter Keys. So....

That’s why modifiers and layers exist. I’m a covert since first getting exposed to layers customization in AnnePro2 (60%) - there is basically no need for any more buttons (unless for whatever reason you have to press combos like “F1-1-H-Num1-Home-ArrowUp”, but then I’d rather use a macro).

[Ultraforce]

On 11/30/2021 at 7:48 PM, whm1974 said:

So when I start with Linux in ~early 2000's I encountered both Emacs and VIM, and thought how quaint text editors from before UNIX... On modern x86 hardware no less. Both should been replaced by something better...

 

Just checked: Websites from both of them. Download if you wish. I rather use Nano myself for a CLI text editor. How widely being used still?

I know a guy who just finished their bachelor's who lives their life mostly off of emac. I personally don't really get it but the power of the tool means that the way he uses it is a bit like Notion on crack having calendar, time tracking for his entire day, rss feeds, scripts to download youtube videos and so on all using just emacs.

[maplepants]

9 hours ago, rikitikitavi said:

Since you actively use CTRL, did you rebind it to CapsLock or different position? I find the original position awkward. Also… brrrr, this shortcut rubs me the wrong way lol

I rebound Escape to CapsLock. I haven't found the control position to be too bad. I use the Magic Keyboard with TouchID and I can work control with my pinky just fine. And I use dvorak for my keyboard layout, which makes ⌃+A and ⌃+E very practical.

 

When I was a teenager my piano teacher told me that learning how to type properly would be a great help to my music. Since then I've always been someone who users all 10 fingers when typing. 

[rikitikitavi]

19 minutes ago, maplepants said:

I rebound Escape to CapsLock. I haven't found the control position to be too bad. I use the Magic Keyboard with TouchID and I can work control with my pinky just fine. And I use dvorak for my keyboard layout, which makes ⌃+A and ⌃+E very practical.

 

When I was a teenager my piano teacher told me that learning how to type properly would be a great help to my music. Since then I've always been someone who users all 10 fingers when typing. 

It was always too awkward for me, even in games would remap usual CTRL crouch to C.

 

Btw, relearned proper typing this year, and was debating for some time if should try Dvorak, but went Colemak at the end. Feels like anything is an upgrade from Qwerty lol

Also kudos to your teacher, I wish someone told me about importance of typing way back at school.

[maplepants]

18 hours ago, whm1974 said:

60# and 70# Keyboards don't have any Keys to left of the Backspace and Enter Keys. So....

True, I always forget about those extra slimmed down keyboard layouts. I assume that anyone who buys one of these keyboards uses either a million keyboard shortcuts with dozens of complex modifications in Karabiner, or they use no shortcuts at all.

 

Do you use one of these? If you do, what's your keyboard shortcut usage?

[whm1974]

4 hours ago, maplepants said:

True, I always forget about those extra slimmed down keyboard layouts. I assume that anyone who buys one of these keyboards uses either a million keyboard shortcuts with dozens of complex modifications in Karabiner, or they use no shortcuts at all.

 

Do you use one of these? If you do, what's your keyboard shortcut usage?

Just your standard layout...

[Dat Guy]

On 12/1/2021 at 1:48 AM, whm1974 said:

and thought how quaint text editors from before UNIX...

• Emacs started in the mid-1970s on ITS.
• Vim was first released in 1991 on the Amiga as a successor to Stevie which was another implementation of vi which was first released in 1979.
• The first version of Unix was released in 1971.

 

On 12/2/2021 at 3:25 PM, whm1974 said:

60# and 70# Keyboards don't have any Keys to left of the Backspace and Enter Keys.

Yes, they do.

[whm1974]

28 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

• Emacs started in the mid-1970s on ITS.
• Vim was first released in 1991 on the Amiga as a successor to Stevie which was another implementation of vi which was first released in 1979.
• The first version of Unix was released in 1971.

 

Yes, they do.

I'm referring to modern keyboards. Not something Terminals used.

[Dat Guy]

When did keyboards start to be modern for you?

[whm1974]

2 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

When did keyboards start to be modern for you?

The Standard 104 Keyboards. Which else???

[Dat Guy]

See, here we go: There is no keyboard standard.