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High Voltage Step Up Generator

BuckGup
By BuckGup
in Hobby Electronics
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Go to solution Solved by akio123008,
On 6/27/2021 at 10:57 PM, BuckGup said:

varying hertz and voltages. Ranging from 15hz-300hz and 4kv-100kv

Very tricky. 

 

There are plenty of circuits and contraptions that you can build to generate very high voltages but all of the AC ones operate at very high frequencies (10s of kHz, usually flyback transformer designs) and the DC ones have a pulsed output (some form of induction coil, taser like device)

 

If you want to generate 100kV at 15 to 300Hz you're going to need some low frequency transformer with an insane ratio. Good luck finding one of those. Also good luck trying to make one; if you get a variac with 100 turns on the input you have to get more than 80000 turns on the secondary.

 

To make matters worse you want the frequency to be variable, so you couldn't just use the mains as an input, but you'd have to use some circuit that can generate the appropriate frequency. (a VFD basically, which is very expensive).

 

On top of all this, unlike the HF and pulsed high voltage circuits that people typically build, which are sort of relatively safe, the low frequency high power setup you're after will literally burn you to a crisp if you get it wrong.

Posted

I'm experimenting with electro culture and I need essentially a variac that can output varying hertz and voltages. Ranging from 15hz-300hz and 4kv-100kv. I've used a negative ion generator in the past to great 12kv with only a 9v battery but I need something that has more variability. Thanks!

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Just keeping this here as a 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On 6/27/2021 at 10:57 PM, BuckGup said:

varying hertz and voltages. Ranging from 15hz-300hz and 4kv-100kv

Very tricky. 

 

There are plenty of circuits and contraptions that you can build to generate very high voltages but all of the AC ones operate at very high frequencies (10s of kHz, usually flyback transformer designs) and the DC ones have a pulsed output (some form of induction coil, taser like device)

 

If you want to generate 100kV at 15 to 300Hz you're going to need some low frequency transformer with an insane ratio. Good luck finding one of those. Also good luck trying to make one; if you get a variac with 100 turns on the input you have to get more than 80000 turns on the secondary.

 

To make matters worse you want the frequency to be variable, so you couldn't just use the mains as an input, but you'd have to use some circuit that can generate the appropriate frequency. (a VFD basically, which is very expensive).

 

On top of all this, unlike the HF and pulsed high voltage circuits that people typically build, which are sort of relatively safe, the low frequency high power setup you're after will literally burn you to a crisp if you get it wrong.

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23 minutes ago, akio123008 said:

Very tricky. 

 

There are plenty of circuits and contraptions that you can build to generate very high voltages but all of the AC ones operate at very high frequencies (10s of kHz, usually flyback transformer designs) and the DC ones have a pulsed output (some form of induction coil, taser like device)

 

If you want to generate 100kV at 15 to 300Hz you're going to need some low frequency transformer with an insane ratio. Good luck finding one of those. Also good luck trying to make one; if you get a variac with 100 turns on the input you have to get more than 80000 turns on the secondary.

 

To make matters worse you want the frequency to be variable, so you couldn't just use the mains as an input, but you'd have to use some circuit that can generate the appropriate frequency. (a VFD basically, which is very expensive).

 

On top of all this, unlike the HF and pulsed high voltage circuits that people typically build, which are sort of relatively safe, the low frequency high power setup you're after will literally burn you to a crisp if you get it wrong.

Yeah I came across one high voltage generator that would work but it only accepted 280v input and it provided way more current than I needed. I’ve since opted for a high voltage generator found in stove igniters or negative ion generators and nixed the option of variable hertz until later. Most are pulsed  but I found one that apparently isn’t. Luckily they are super cheap like $9-$18 for two so I can experiment a bit

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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You ever tried to wind a transformer for 15 Hz? This is possible, but you're going to need a massive core and a lot of turns. This is not all that easy of a transformer to design, much less build. It's going to be pricey.

 

Furthermore... 100 kV is a lot. Most transformers designed for these kinds of voltages are filled with oil in order to stop the insulation from breaking down. The usual suspect for HV wire is to use coax with a solid polyethylene (NOT FOAM) dielectric, often with the outer jacket and shield stripped off, but you're going to need something substantially thicker than RG8. 

 

I can't imagine what you're trying to do with this, however. What the hell do you need 15 Hz at 100 kV for? 

 

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On 6/28/2021 at 3:22 PM, Hackentosher said:

Maybe a vfd into a rewound variac? I hope you know what you’re doing. 

A variac will saturate if you run it much below 50 or 60 Hz. 

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10 hours ago, H713 said:

You ever tried to wind a transformer for 15 Hz? This is possible, but you're going to need a massive core and a lot of turns. This is not all that easy of a transformer to design, much less build. It's going to be pricey.

 

Furthermore... 100 kV is a lot. Most transformers designed for these kinds of voltages are filled with oil in order to stop the insulation from breaking down. The usual suspect for HV wire is to use coax with a solid polyethylene (NOT FOAM) dielectric, often with the outer jacket and shield stripped off, but you're going to need something substantially thicker than RG8. 

 

I can't imagine what you're trying to do with this, however. What the hell do you need 15 Hz at 100 kV for? 

 

Electroculture that's the main use 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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You're asking for a hugely wide range of voltages and frequencies. Any one of these requirements isn't a show stopper, but all of them together will make for a tricky project.

 

I do not know of any commercial equipment that will meet your needs. Designing it will not be a trivial task. It also has the potential to be both costly and very dangerous.

 

 

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9 hours ago, H713 said:

You're asking for a hugely wide range of voltages and frequencies. Any one of these requirements isn't a show stopper, but all of them together will make for a tricky project.

 

I do not know of any commercial equipment that will meet your needs. Designing it will not be a trivial task. It also has the potential to be both costly and very dangerous.

 

 

Okay, so to make the scope smaller how about just 60kv at <2a and 60hz. I’ve found spark pulse generators but they don’t work well continuously as they burn out or slow down. Also to add on top of that it would be ideal if it wasn’t pulsing. I’ve thought to get two and make them discharge every other pulse so it’s near continuous 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 hour ago, BuckGup said:

Okay, so to make the scope smaller how about just 60kv at <2a and 60hz. I’ve found spark pulse generators but they don’t work well continuously as they burn out or slow down. Also to add on top of that it would be ideal if it wasn’t pulsing. I’ve thought to get two and make them discharge every other pulse so it’s near continuous 

2 A at 60 kV is 120 kW. That's a ridiculous amount of power and any power supply capable of that is exceedingly dangerous. I'm not just saying that as the usual disclosure - I mean that when I'm working on things like that, I want to be in another room during testing, or at the very least 40 feet away behind a lexan shield. 

 

If we wave the current requirement...

 

What you could do is to use a variac on the primary of a large step-up transformer (still scary, but doable). I can think of plenty of ways of meeting your demands (minus the current requirements...), even with the varying frequency. Most of them involve winding a custom transformer. All of them are dangerous. 

 

Most of those spark pulse generators (if they're what I think they are) have an extremely short pulse length, so using two in the way you described wouldn't do what you want.

 

I'm also not sure that you understand what you're trying to do here. I would strongly suggest doing some more reading on HV power supply design before proceeding further. 

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3 hours ago, H713 said:

2 A at 60 kV is 120 kW. That's a ridiculous amount of power and any power supply capable of that is exceedingly dangerous. I'm not just saying that as the usual disclosure - I mean that when I'm working on things like that, I want to be in another room during testing, or at the very least 40 feet away behind a lexan shield. 

 

If we wave the current requirement...

 

What you could do is to use a variac on the primary of a large step-up transformer (still scary, but doable). I can think of plenty of ways of meeting your demands (minus the current requirements...), even with the varying frequency. Most of them involve winding a custom transformer. All of them are dangerous. 

 

Most of those spark pulse generators (if they're what I think they are) have an extremely short pulse length, so using two in the way you described wouldn't do what you want.

 

I'm also not sure that you understand what you're trying to do here. I would strongly suggest doing some more reading on HV power supply design before proceeding further. 

The issue is the guide I’m referencing doesn’t mention anything other than 60kv and a distance the wire is from the subject. The schematic is identical to an electric fence but I don’t think pulsing will get the affect I’m looking for as it has to sorta work like a massive negative ion generator 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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5 hours ago, BuckGup said:

The issue is the guide I’m referencing doesn’t mention anything other than 60kv and a distance the wire is from the subject. The schematic is identical to an electric fence but I don’t think pulsing will get the affect I’m looking for as it has to sorta work like a massive negative ion generator 

Then where does the " < 2 A" come from? 

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On 6/29/2021 at 2:41 PM, akio123008 said:

Very tricky. 

 

There are plenty of circuits and contraptions that you can build to generate very high voltages but all of the AC ones operate at very high frequencies (10s of kHz, usually flyback transformer designs) and the DC ones have a pulsed output (some form of induction coil, taser like device)

 

If you want to generate 100kV at 15 to 300Hz you're going to need some low frequency transformer with an insane ratio. Good luck finding one of those. Also good luck trying to make one; if you get a variac with 100 turns on the input you have to get more than 80000 turns on the secondary.

 

To make matters worse you want the frequency to be variable, so you couldn't just use the mains as an input, but you'd have to use some circuit that can generate the appropriate frequency. (a VFD basically, which is very expensive).

 

On top of all this, unlike the HF and pulsed high voltage circuits that people typically build, which are sort of relatively safe, the low frequency high power setup you're after will literally burn you to a crisp if you get it wrong.

I wouldn't recommend anyone wind a transformer for 15 Hz with this ratio. It's a hard transformer to wind and your core is going to be enormous. Keep in mind the thickness of the insulation you're going to need to hold off 100 kV. No matter how you do it, 1000 turns that can hold off 100 kV is a huge pain in the butt.

 

If it were me, and I had to wind a 100 kV transformer for 15 Hz, I'd use a switching converter. That's the only way for this to not be stupid.  One option would then be to use PWM (on the primary side) to vary the voltage on the secondary. With careful control, you could generate whatever waveform you want on the secondary. Obviously you'll need some pretty high voltage (and pretty fast) diodes, but that's achievable with a long string. Depending on the needed current, vacuum rectifiers might not be a bad idea either. In the interest of minimizing the difficulty of designing the transformer, I might consider pushing the primary side voltages up, potentially in the 800 - 900 V range. It would make sense to push the switching frequency as high as possible, with the main limitations being switching losses in the IGBTs and limitations of the core.

 

Just a warning- if you do choose to use vacuum rectifiers on the secondary side, you will need to do something about the X-rays. 

 

I'm still not clear about the exact requirements, and from what it sounds like the OP isn't either. You may or may not be able to use a resonant transformer for this. This site has a very good paper on the design of such a power supply. I suggest reading it (and making sure you understand it) in its entirety.

http://www.rtftechnologies.org/emtech/resonant-SMPS/80kV-40A-resonant-smps.htm


Either way, before attempting to design and build a HV power supply, it is paramount that you have the exact requirements outlined and understand what you're doing. This isn't a "weekend project". 

 

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