Rant/Cry for help - Ryzen vs Intel

[quiet_thinker]

Hello Everyone,

 

I'm writing this post as a bit of a rant, but at the same time I would be grateful for any suggestions you might have for me.

 

Recently I have spilled some tea on my pc (R.I.P.), however fortunately nothing but the motherboard and the CPU died (i5-8400 + B360M Pro4). 

After the incident, I decided to go, since it's so highly regarded, with Ryzen in my new build (5 3600 + B450 Pro4) and here's where my rant begins.

 

For the first time in a long time, the setup process (from selecting parts to getting a boot) was a pain. It turns out that not only the RAM speed matters, but also RAM placement and setup is quirky when it comes to Ryzen.

Not only that, but after the "upgrade" my system has worse performance in quite a few benchmarks and my RAM (which is the exact same as it was, but now with XMP enabled) is performing worse then before.

 

How are not people complaining about it ALL the time in tech videos? RAM compatibility issues, RAM speed issues, RAM placement issues, RAM overclocking issues etc.
I mean c'mon, I don't belive everyone knows everything about this stuff and is also 100% comfortable messing with RAM settings in BIOS.

As for the cry for help - does anybody know a good step by step tutorial for optimizing your RAM/Ryzen performance?
Because I feel like I was ripped off when buying this CPU, especially after all the praises it is given on YT (including LTT videos). 

[Lurick]

1) Ram placement ALWAYS matters. Intel or AMD have the same requirements for dual channel operation. You might not notice it as much on Intel due to the architecture differences compared to Ryzen but it's not different.

2) Ryzen has always had that issue with RAM speed because of the infinity fabric for how different chiplets communicate between each other.

3) Did you clean install Windows after swapping platforms? Sure you might get lucky and not have to but in a lot of cases a reinstall of Windows fixes a lot of problems.

[Radium_Angel]

5 minutes ago, quiet_thinker said:

rant begins.

Ryzen seems to be picky about lots of things.

This is why I stick with Xeons for my systems.

 

I do have a Ryzen build, must it's "merely" a Ryzen 5 2600 for my Linux build and it's okay. Not earth shattering, but ok.

[svmlegacy]

So, you want to fine tune your memory, but not put in the effort to learn about it in depth?

 

RTFM and install the memory. Run default or DOCP/XMP settings. You'll be fine.

[quiet_thinker]

2 minutes ago, Lurick said:

1) Ram placement ALWAYS matters. Intel or AMD have the same requirements for dual channel operation. You might not notice it as much on Intel due to the architecture differences compared to Ryzen but it's not different.

Sure, but it was easy, with ryzen you have bloody comatibility tables that take into consideration RAM type (single rank/dual rank), processor generation, number of sticks etc. That's sick!

[Lurick]

1 minute ago, quiet_thinker said:

Sure, but it was easy, with ryzen you have bloody comatibility tables that take into consideration RAM type (single rank/dual rank), processor generation, number of sticks etc. That's sick!

With ryzen first generation that was true to some degree but that's not true for newer generation stuff at all. Number of sticks matters for BOTH platforms if you want dual channel, period.

[quiet_thinker]

3 minutes ago, svmlegacy said:

So, you want to fine tune your memory, but not put in the effort to learn about it in depth?

 

RTFM and install the memory. Run default or DOCP/XMP settings. You'll be fine.

I don't want to waste my time on learning about RAM optimization in depth, because I will probably use it 5 times in my entire life
I'm not a system integrator after all. If you need to learn about it to use Ryzen properly, then it should be put as a dislaimer on all Ryzen reviews.

If it was I would go with Intel again. I was sure that after almost 4 years on the market these issues would be solved and automated for the user.

[svmlegacy]

Just now, quiet_thinker said:

I don't want to waste my time on learning about RAM optimization in depth, because I will probably use it 5 times in my entire life
I'm not a system integrator after all. If you need to learn about it to use Ryzen properly, then it should be put as a dislaimer on all Ryzen reviews.

If it was I would go with Intel again. I was sure that after almost 4 years on the market these issues would be solved and automated for the user.

My point is that you don't have to learn. I installed my memory per the manual, enabled XMP (not necessary, because I wanted to), and have been fine since.

[minibois]

Roses are red, violets are blue. RAM goes in slots four and two.

 

This has been the case for Intel and AMD for quite some time, of course assuming you have four memory slots and two memory sticks (which is the most common setup).

In general, the rule is: use every other RAM slot, starting from the set farthest away from the CPU.

Of course, optimal RAM placement is mentioned in the manual too.

 

If you want your RAM to work right away with no hassle, motherboard manufacturers have a handy list of qualified working components, named the "QVL". This can be found on the "support" section of any motherboard product page.

if you don't want to do any tweaking or worrying about RAM speeds, just get something from this list, turn on XMP/DOCP and you're good.

25 minutes ago, quiet_thinker said:

As for the cry for help - does anybody know a good step by step tutorial for optimizing your RAM/Ryzen performance?

What set of memory are you running? Is it not running at full speed?

[quiet_thinker]

3 minutes ago, minibois said:

What set of memory are you running? Is it not running at full speed?

ADATA XPG GAMMIX D10, DDR4, 16 GB, 2666MHz, CL16 (AX4U266638G16-DBG) which is by luck in QVL for my mobo and it;s running the advertised 2666 on XMP, however I get worse latency then I did with intel without XMP.

[quiet_thinker]

Just now, svmlegacy said:

My point is that you don't have to learn. I installed my memory per the manual, enabled XMP (not necessary, because I wanted to), and have been fine since.

If it was my original system, sure, that would be great. But having the comparison I feel ripped off, because I could get my old set (i5-8400 + B360M Pro4) for half the price and apparently I would get better performance out of it.

[porina]

15 minutes ago, quiet_thinker said:

however I get worse latency then I did with intel without XMP.

The way the ram subsystem works is very different between them. Does a latency measurement translate into real differences in actual use or are you chasing a number?

[-rascal-]

Part of the problem is because of the AsRock B450 Pro4 motherboard.

It's a some-what finnicky board, that's why AsRock has those RAM charts / tables.

Not a problem on the ASUS StriX B450-F, and 2x Gigabyte B450 Aorus Boards, for the Ryzen 3600 systems I helped my 3x buddies build earlier this year.

 

Not reinstalling Windows, or even uninstalling the old Intel system software / drivers / firmware is another part of your problem.

When you do a platform change, especially when going Intel <--> AMD, or AMD <--> Intel, it is advised to do a fresh install...in most cases. 

 

Ryzen 1000-series was very RAM picky, but it got better than Ryzen 2000-series.

Much better with Ryzen 3000-series, and apparently EVEN better with Ryzen 5000-series.

Ryzen 3000-series should have no issues with up to DDR4-3000 or DDR4-3200.

DDR4-3400 and DDR4-3600+ is doable, too

 

Ryzen 'Infinity Fabric' is linked to DRAM frequency.

It is 1:1 until ~1800 MHz ?

Simply running AIDA64 Memory Benchmark to get ns latency time doesn't give you the whole picture of how things work...

[quiet_thinker]

38 minutes ago, porina said:

The way the ram subsystem works is very different between them. Does a latency measurement translate into real differences in actual use or are you chasing a number?

TBH I'm chasing the numbers a bit. Although in technology the numbers always matter, a bit more, a bit less, but they always matter. After I just spent approx 370 USD on a CPU + MOBO I want to see that it was worth it  

[porina]

40 minutes ago, quiet_thinker said:

TBH I'm chasing the numbers a bit. Although in technology the numbers always matter, a bit more, a bit less, but they always matter. After I just spent approx 370 USD on a CPU + MOBO I want to see that it was worth it  

Run Cinebench?  About as ram insensitive as software gets...