Russia invades Crimeea

[alpenwasser]

And then there is all what Soviet Union did just after WWII. Pretty much Soviet Union was as bad as Nazies with one difference - they were on winning side so everything was forgiven. Damn, Nazies even went to Soviet Union to learn how to build concentration camps.

I remember seeing "Fog of War", where Bob McNamara states more or

less exactly that: Had the allies lost the war, they would have been

put on trial for war crimes same as they did with the axis powers.

He was mostly refering to the systematic large-scale fire bombings

of German and Japanese cities with hundreds of thousands dead, but

the mass deaths of axis POWs during and after the war can certainly

also be put on the list of offenses. I mean, at Stalingrad about

100,000 Germans were captured IIRC, and less than 10,000 made it

back home alive, the rest died in captivity. If that's not mass

murder I don't know what is.

And yeah, it could be argued that Stalin was responsible for quite a

few more deaths than Hitler over the course of his career (all those

political executions and persecutions, or the Holodomor, as two examples).

Mao should also not be forgotten on our list of mass murderers while

we're at it (the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution). Never

had to account for his sins either.

[Avcn42]

The US is a member of a protection pact to the Ukraine for the disarmament of nuclear weapons. The government of Ukraine has asked for help. The US should intervene because if we don't there is no incentive for other countries to do the same.

 

As for "The United States are stupid".

Edit- Just think bad things about yourself.

 

I'm all for world peace, if or when it comes. But, I'm not a total dumbass to think it's gonna happen soon.

Oh look! Patriotism! Congratulations, you just said to me what I wrote. Stop defending what's wrong. 

THERE IS NO INCENTIVE? WHAAATTT?? So you think it's completely ok for a country to invade the others, giving a flawed explanation? How do you explain everything that happened in the middle east? *cough* Oil *cough*

Please, stop that non sense. Yes, if Ukraine asked for help, sure, go there, f*ck it all up, even more! But that doesn't mean they should act like the boss, threatening Russia. You're blind for your country, you're thinking they are the world police and will keep everything under control. Wrong. USA spends millions a year "gearing up for war", and have their military units everywhere, they could (and probably will) start trying to control everything and everyone at some point ( they already do it with their "life stile" and "culture")

Hahaha..."Freedom", they said...

- snip -

EDIT:

Sorry if I offended...I was shocked by the comment and it flowed naturally. This won't happen again

Edited March 5, 2014 by Andrevcn
offensive content, personal attack

[Nineshadow]

Really,the best way they can do this is to ask the population from Crimeea what they want : to be part of Ukraine or Russia.

[Real_PhillBert]

Really,the best way they can do this is to ask the population from Crimeea what they want : to be part of Ukraine or Russia.

 

I'm not sure its entirely fair to ask the population that question right after the Russian army invaded said country, demanded that the local military surrender, park several naval vessels off the coast, and launch an ICBM...

 

What kind of answer do you think they would give? That is the very definition of a distressed response.

 

They might as well hold a gun to someones head and ask if he wants to be their friend. 

[Nineshadow]

I'm not sure its entirely fair to ask the population that question right after the Russian army invaded said country, demanded that the local military surrender, park several naval vessels off the coast, and launch an ICBM...

 

What kind of answer do you think they would give? That is the very definition of a distressed response.

 

They might as well hold a gun to someones head and ask if he wants to be their friend. 

Before they had invaded the country.

[Unknown_Guy]

Before they had invaded the country.

Even then it's not that simple. Soviet Union deported lots of local people and replaced them with there own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union#Deportation_of_social_groups  

[totjup5]

I really hope this doesn't escalate too far... another war where the US is involved in is something WE DO NOT need...

At this point I dont think the world would make it through a war between two countries as big as Russia and the US

[ViruZ_HUN]

Russian troops took over a strategic region in Ukraine as the parliament in Moscow gave President Vladimir Putin a green light Saturday to proceed to protect Russian interests. The newly installed government in Kiev was powerless to react to the swift takeover of Crimea by Russian troops already in Ukraine and more flown in, aided by pro-Russian Ukrainian groups.

 

A few hours after Putin was cleared by parliament to use military force on Ukrainian soil, Interfax news agency reported that two Russian anti-submarine warships have appeared off the coast of the Crimea region, violating an agreement on Moscow's lease of a naval base. The report quoted a Ukrainian military source who said that two vessels, part of Russia's Baltic Fleet, had been sighted in a bay at Sevastopol, where Russia's Black Sea Fleet has a base. 

 

Putin's move follows U.S. President Barack Obama's warning Friday "there will be costs" if Russia intervenes militarily, sharply raising the stakes in the conflict over Ukraine's future and evoking memories of Cold War brinkmanship. The explicit reference to the use of troops escalated days of conflict between the two countries, which started when Ukraine's pro-Russian president was pushed out by a protest movement of people who wanted closer ties to the European Union.

"I'm submitting a request for using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine pending the normalization of the socio-political situation in that country," Putin said in his request sent to parliament.

 

Russia's upper house also recommended that Moscow recall its ambassador from Washington over Obama's comments.

Ukraine had already accused Russia on Friday of a "military invasion and occupation" of the Crimea peninsula, where Russia's Black Sea fleet is based.

 

The crisis was sparked when Ukraine's deposed president, Victor Yanukovych, ditched a deal for closer ties to the EU and instead turned toward Moscow. Months of protests followed, culminating in security forces killing dozens of protesters and Yanukovych fleeing to Russia.

Ignoring Obama's warning, Putin said the "extraordinary situation in Ukraine" was putting at risk the lives of Russian citizens and military personnel stationed at a naval base that Moscow has maintained in the Black Sea peninsula since the Soviet collapse.

Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said in remarks on Rossiya 24 television that while the president "got the entire arsenal of means necessary for settling this situation,

 

Putin's motion loosely refers to the "territory of Ukraine" rather than specifically to Crimea, raising the possibility that Moscow could use military force in other Russian-speaking areas in eastern and southern Ukraine, where many oppose the new authorities in Kiev. Pro-Russian protests were reported in the eastern cities of Kharkiv, Donetsk and Luhansk and the southern port of Odessa.

In Saturday's parliamentary session in Moscow, a deputy house speaker said Obama had insulted Russia and crossed a "red line".

 

At the United Nations, the Ukrainian ambassador, Yuriy Sergeyev, said Friday that Russian transport aircraft and 11 attack helicopters had arrived in Crimea illegally, and that Russian troops had taken control of two airports in Crimea.

He described the gunmen posted outside the two airports as Russian armed forces as well as "unspecified" units.

More info : http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577243

 

This ain't gonna be good...And for those of you who don't know what the Crimean Peninsula is : 

I am afraid that soon Russia going to attack sweden and rest of europe, because the news lately is abaout russia going crazy.

 

ONly help we got is ur dear friend Obama:)

[techswede]

I am afraid that soon Russia going to attack sweden and rest of europe, because the news lately is abaout russia going crazy.

 

ONly help we got is ur dear friend Obama:)

We are vikings. We'll tear them apart with our bare hands 

not to mention our FH77 howitzers 

Our tank obstacles need some repairs though.. the ones i've seen aren't exactly in the best shape..

[DoubleY]

We are vikings. We'll tear them apart with our bare hands 

not to mention our FH77 howitzers 

Our tank obstacles need some repairs though.. the ones i've seen aren't exactly in the best shape..

Not to mention you'll kick their bloody tits in.

[Real_PhillBert]

We are vikings. We'll tear them apart with our bare hands 

not to mention our FH77 howitzers 

Our tank obstacles need some repairs though.. the ones i've seen aren't exactly in the best shape..

 

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man" - General George S. Patton.

[ViruZ_HUN]

We are vikings. We'll tear them apart with our bare hands 

not to mention our FH77 howitzers 

Our tank obstacles need some repairs though.. the ones i've seen aren't exactly in the best shape..

remember when russia had a training?, they had Stockholm as target to bomb,( not real bomb just training.

 

And Danmark reconizned first of all that bomb planes was on way to stokcholm:)

 

Lel

[techswede]

"Fixed fortifications are a monument to the stupidity of man" - General George S. Patton.

They weren't fixed when they were new... the damn train tracks are rotten now though..

 

remember when russia had a training?, they had Stockholm as target to bomb,( not real bomb just training.

 

And Danmark reconizned first of all that bomb planes was on way to stokcholm:)

 

Lel

Im half danish. (still a danish citizen too) so you get the best of both worlds   no need to worry then

[ToxicFire]

*le sigh* right everyone take a step back and breath, those's who keep citing the cold war should realise that has very little to do with the current situation, those of you born prior to the 1980's will always have a slightly biased view of russia thanks to the paranoia of the 50's-70's especially in certain parts of the world thanks to the idea that the soviet union might come over the hill at any time and turn everyone into communist's, when in reality that was only true of specific parts of europe and only in terms of land invasion before MAD would have kicked in and no way of life would have existed.

Today's situation is very different, why? its more about economic's and politic's than anything else, russia's economy is tied to europe alot more than the average person thinks about,the energy industry is what brought alot of money into russia after the post soviet wilderness and that intrinsicly links them to europe, (just look how the russian currency and markets reacted to the recent situation that is clearly not a market that is secure when it thinks relations with europe are at steak) The ukraine moving towards a european style country, would have left russia proably feeling a little more isolated and that their way of life was slowly been erroded also at the same time putting europe in a stronger economic position for neocigation on things like fuel (econimies of scale etc etc). It's also why sanction's are something thats been widely discussed because they could have a real effect.

This is also a little bit about the legacy of russia and putin, russia was a strong country, and it suffered major economic strife and is now returning to its former level's of wealth and power, putin probably wants to ensure this for the future, name one country where the politician's wouldn't want a strong secure future for their country. Russia isn't the communist state of the cold war era there as capitalist in nature as the average american probably is, yes culturally different probably a bit more on the conservative right of center political viewpoint.

Point the 4th, has anyone actually stated they legally recognise the new ukranian leadership yet, yes countries have offered aid and support but thats actually short of a line, which would be intresring to understand if someone knows about international and/or ukranian law. After all if we all were to remove politicions we thought might be corupt from power it would be like a revolving door in most countries. (though any order that leads to loss of life of citizens exercising their right to free speech is reason enough for instant legal dismission tbh).

[Unknown_Guy]

Point the 4th, has anyone actually stated they legally recognise the new ukranian leadership yet, yes countries have offered aid and support but thats actually short of a line, which would be intresring to understand if someone knows about international and/or ukranian law. After all if we all were to remove politicions we thought might be corupt from power it would be like a revolving door in most countries. (though any order that leads to loss of life of citizens exercising their right to free speech is reason enough for instant legal dismission tbh).

Russia is almost only one that doesn't recognize new leadership. That's one of their excuses actually to be there.

 

As for other part, agree to a degree. The question is how far Putin is ready to go. This just looks like there might be another cold war. What is the same as almost century ago is worlds lack of reaction to one country invading another.

[Unknown_Guy]

 

Interesting that medic he had spoken denies saying that snipers are the same and without investigation it's not even possible say if the bullets are the same. So informations is not very reliable even from diplomats

[_Vigo_]

Russia is almost only one that doesn't recognize new leadership. That's one of their excuses actually to be there.

From a legal standpoint current government illegally and nationalists came to power so Russia has good excuses.  Don't trust mass media, whole east of Ukraine don't like protesters in Kiev but that does not mean that they want to join Russia. I don't believe that Crimea is going to annexed to Russia.

[Real_PhillBert]

Poland has invoked Article 4 of NATO.

 

While it seems that Article 4 in itself is not a huge deal, a simple demand of increased observation and discussion of events, Article 5 is the next step and that is where it gets real. Article 5 is an invoked defense of a NATO nation, and can be utilized outside of the nation who is invoking article 5. 

 

Article 5 has been used once, by the United States on September 11th 2001, to bring NATO down on Al-qaeda forces in Afghanistan.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-meeting-idUSBREA221VS20140303

 

More info on the NATO treaty can be found here.

[ToxicFire]

Poland has invoked Article 4 of NATO.

 

While it seems that Article 4 in itself is not a huge deal, a simple demand of increased observation and discussion of events, Article 5 is the next step and that is where it gets real. Article 5 is an invoked defense of a NATO nation, and can be utilized outside of the nation who is invoking article 5. 

 

Article 5 has been used once, by the United States on September 11th 2001, to bring NATO down on Al-qaeda forces in Afghanistan.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/03/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-meeting-idUSBREA221VS20140303

 

More info on the NATO treaty can be found here.

But article 4 has been invoked 6 times before within the last decade, all of which by turkey over the iraq and syrian wars. So seeing it in that light does not imply article 5 is on the cards.

[Real_PhillBert]

But article 4 has been invoked 6 times before within the last decade, all of which by turkey over the iraq and syrian wars. So seeing it in that light does not imply article 5 is on the cards.

 

I agree. I am not saying that since Poland appears to be at 3rd base, they are going to run for home. I am simply passing along information.

[Mrbluee]

Take this from a Russian speaking Ukrainian. I'm sort off happy that Russia has stepped in because what most mainstream media sites are failing to show are Russian speaking Ukrainians being classed as "traitors" to their country,because they speak Russian and not Ukrainian. Russian speaking Ukrainians are scared of the pro Ukrainian rebels who murder and rape innocent people. What do you think would happen if Russia wasn't there to keep things in check?? Mass Murder of Russian speaking Ukrainians??.Personally Russia should be in every major Russian speaking city to protect the civilians there. (Written on phone can't see what I wrote so relaying on spell check to have corrected it)

[Unknown_Guy]

Take this from a Russian speaking Ukrainian. I'm sort off happy that Russia has stepped in because what most mainstream media sites are failing to show are Russian speaking Ukrainians being classed as "traitors" to their country,because they speak Russian and not Ukrainian. Russian speaking Ukrainians are scared of the pro Ukrainian rebels who murder and rape innocent people. What do you think would happen if Russia wasn't there to keep things in check?? Mass Murder of Russian speaking Ukrainians??.Personally Russia should be in every major Russian speaking city to protect the civilians there. (Written on phone can't see what I wrote so relaying on spell check to have corrected it)

Just there is no rapes and killing. Just Russian propaganda. There's even nazis in Kiev. If it's so unsafe there why they even allowed to play play-off matches of KHL in Ukraine?

 

Either you are just provoking everyone or need to start fallowing independent media. I'm voting for first as that is the same thing what are being shown in Russian media.

[ToxicFire]

Take this from a Russian speaking Ukrainian. I'm sort off happy that Russia has stepped in because what most mainstream media sites are failing to show are Russian speaking Ukrainians being classed as "traitors" to their country,because they speak Russian and not Ukrainian. Russian speaking Ukrainians are scared of the pro Ukrainian rebels who murder and rape innocent people. What do you think would happen if Russia wasn't there to keep things in check?? Mass Murder of Russian speaking Ukrainians??.Personally Russia should be in every major Russian speaking city to protect the civilians there. (Written on phone can't see what I wrote so relaying on spell check to have corrected it)

Its good to hear from someone who's got a more invested viewpoint and im sure everyone else would agree with me in hoping for safe resolution to this crisis and the safety of all ukrainian's regardless of ethnic background.

Any persecution of any ethnic group, is completely abhorrent though I will admit that there has been little implication of that in western media atm, the most I have heard which was only once is that there was something about a proposed ban on the russian language in ukrain, such ban would be stupid and highly agitative.

As for the part about pro ukrainians murdering and raping innocent people, there hasn't been anything like that in uk media, but do you think that possibly the same sensationalist reporting that occur's in most media these days could be taking place on both sides of this crisis, do you have direct or indirect knowledge rather than media coverage. Im not saying this hasn't happned if it has is it down to fringe elements of the pro ukrainians or the majority of them in your opinion. As for pro ukrainians possibly mass murdering russian speakers, i'm somewhat skeptical about as it would completely run counter to their hope to join the europe union.

[Mrbluee]

Its good to hear from someone who's got a more invested viewpoint and im sure everyone else would agree with me in hoping for safe resolution to this crisis and the safety of all ukrainian's regardless of ethnic background.

Any persecution of any ethnic group, is completely abhorrent though I will admit that there has been little implication of that in western media atm, the most I have heard which was only once is that there was something about a proposed ban on the russian language in ukrain, such ban would be stupid and highly agitative.

As for the part about pro ukrainians murdering and raping innocent people, there hasn't been anything like that in uk media, but do you think that possibly the same sensationalist reporting that occur's in most media these days could be taking place on both sides of this crisis, do you have direct or indirect knowledge rather than media coverage. Im not saying this hasn't happned if it has is it down to fringe elements of the pro ukrainians or the majority of them in your opinion. As for pro ukrainians possibly mass murdering russian speakers, i'm somewhat skeptical about as it would completely run counter to their hope to join the europe union.

I been speaking to my relatives and friend, ones that live in small villages.The people who the crimes affect are to afraid to report this to the police.

[Mrbluee]

Its good to hear from someone who's got a more invested viewpoint and im sure everyone else would agree with me in hoping for safe resolution to this crisis and the safety of all ukrainian's regardless of ethnic background.

Any persecution of any ethnic group, is completely abhorrent though I will admit that there has been little implication of that in western media atm, the most I have heard which was only once is that there was something about a proposed ban on the russian language in ukrain, such ban would be stupid and highly agitative.

As for the part about pro ukrainians murdering and raping innocent people, there hasn't been anything like that in uk media, but do you think that possibly the same sensationalist reporting that occur's in most media these days could be taking place on both sides of this crisis, do you have direct or indirect knowledge rather than media coverage. Im not saying this hasn't happned if it has is it down to fringe elements of the pro ukrainians or the majority of them in your opinion. As for pro ukrainians possibly mass murdering russian speakers, i'm somewhat skeptical about as it would completely run counter to their hope to join the europe union.

Provoking what exactly, i'm just stating what I know.