1st time home server - help needed

[Jtalk4456]

Hey, so I'm working on a degree in networking and security operations, but i'm still in all the electives and haven't learned much of the actual subject yet. So I've got a family, wife and 5 kids (help me), and I plan to grab a NAS for a home server to start off.

Considerations:

2 bay NAS unless I can find a 4 bay that's not too expensive. I'd like to grab 4 TB worth of drives, and I think from what research I've done those should be wd reds. I'm not sure what the seagate equivalent of a red is or if seagate is as good as wd.

I have a usb on the back of the router, but i'd prefer of course to plug in ethernet. I'm assuming all NAS have a ethernet, but i'm sure some of what comes up when i search for nas is just external drives with usb.

Security - I'm assuming this amounts to just username and password access? Or maybe based on the device being saved? Security side i'm not even remotely familiar with, but this will house some family information, so I want to make sure I do a good job at this.

Main storage needs are a media library and a general purpose file server. On the media side, plex is the big one i've heard all about but not used yet. Not sure if it's the best. I've started the process of using EAC to rip all my Audio CD's. Still working on that and will work on movies afterwards. Any recommendations for a software to use for the movie side? On the music side, I was wondering if there is a way to allow google home mini to access the music files on the server so i can make playlists of music i own and play from a voice command on google home.

As far as files go, I have my toes dipped in a lot of file types. Anything from pictures to gifs to word files, spreadsheets, finale notepad music sheets, simple .txt files. One thing down the road i'd love is to have my phone auto download any pictures to a file on the server when my phone is on the home wifi. Not sure if that is possible or easy, but i'd love that. Outside of the pictures and audio/video, the rest i'll sort as far as the directory goes.

My main concern about the directory is user access. As I said, lots of users with a wife and 5 kids. Ideally I want a shared directory that will hold audio/video for anyone to use in the house. I'd like individual user access for me and wifey being administrators and standard user access for the kids. Not sure if that's even how it works as I'm new to servers. I'd also like a shared directory of files for the family. Things like my tax returns that i do online, health records, etc. This being where i'm most concerned about security.

So any advice on any of this would be greatly appreciated. Oh budget is probably helpful for the hardware side. I'd be looking to spend 200-300 for the NAS, though if better options are given I could spend up to $500 if it's really worth it. Thanks in advance for any help!

[Kanna]

One thing use don't use seagate over wd red maybe seagate ironwolf but I would go for wd red

[unijab]

I like the ironwolf drives

[MISTERDIEABETIC]

17 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

2 bay NAS unless I can find a 4 bay that's not too expensive. I'd like to grab 4 TB worth of drives, and I think from what research I've done those should be wd reds. I'm not sure what the seagate equivalent of a red is or if seagate is as good as wd.
 

The Seagate Ironwolf drives are specifically made to be used in a NAS

[Jtalk4456]

51 minutes ago, unijab said:

I like the ironwolf drives

 

41 minutes ago, MISTERDIEABETIC said:

The Seagate Ironwolf drives are specifically made to be used in a NAS

How does Seagate compare to WD though?

[Blue4130]

21 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

 

How does Seagate compare to WD though?

They both have certain models and sizes that are good and others that are bad. Check backblaze reports for data. 

[Blue4130]

Here are two charts to reinforce a couple points. You can see in the chart that on certain 4tb drives, seagate has a terrible drive and a not as bad drive while WD is great. But then in the 6tb size, WD is terrible and Seagate is good. You really need to look at the specific drives individually. Pick a size you want, then drill down for the data on that size.

 

And the second chart, you can see that overall, drive reliability is trending up (Or in the chart, failure is trending down) - great for everyone, both consumers and manufacturers.

[MISTERDIEABETIC]

1 hour ago, Blue4130 said:

Here are two charts to reinforce a couple points. You can see in the chart that on certain 4tb drives, seagate has a terrible drive and a not as bad drive while WD is great. But then in the 6tb size, WD is terrible and Seagate is good. You really need to look at the specific drives individually. Pick a size you want, then drill down for the data on that size.

 

And the second chart, you can see that overall, drive reliability is trending up (Or in the chart, failure is trending down) - great for everyone, both consumers and manufacturers.

That last WD drive is really more of an unknown entity on that graph. Only a 75 unit sample size when one of the 4tb Seagate units is 34,000+ doesn't really give you a decent enough idea and they should have just left it off. 

Tbh,  they should have left any off that didn't have at least 2k imo. I'd try looking for a comparison that has a much larger sample size from each contender before I made a decision based on failure rates at least.

 

Also that chart is 3.5+ years old

[Blue4130]

31 minutes ago, MISTERDIEABETIC said:

That last WD drive is really more of an unknown entity on that graph. Only a 75 unit sample size when one of the 4tb Seagate units is 34,000+ doesn't really give you a decent enough idea and they should have just left it off. 

Tbh,  they should have left any off that didn't have at least 2k imo. I'd try looking for a comparison that has a much larger sample size from each contender before I made a decision based on failure rates at least.

 

Also that chart is 3.5+ years old

That was just a convient chart that showed that both brands have good and bad on one chart. They have very extensive testing going back years and right up to current. Want to guess what it shows? Exactly what I said. Both brands have good and bad sku's and you really need to pick a size and research. I also chose that despite its age because that is when they used lots of 4tb drives,which I think is what many home users will choose. And being old, you can extrapolate that newer drives will be more reliable than what is on that chart. 

 

They don't leave any drives off of the chart. It's up to you to make use of the data as you see fit. 

[Blue4130]

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/hard-drive-test-data.html

 

And for reference. Here is the site. It's likely the most comprehensive HDD testing information around, there are not many places that have over 129,000 hdds in use. 

[Dutch_Master]

1 hour ago, Blue4130 said:

[...] there are not many places that have over 129,000 hdds in use. 

Google, Amazon, Ebay, twitter, FB are a few of the better known names. Then there's pretty much any data centre with 2k+ racks inside. But rarely do these outfits publish this kind of sensitive data, true.

 

As for the OP, Red and Ironwolf are indeed the drives to look for. However, you shouldn't choose one, take both and preferably, add at least one more manufacturer as well. This will improve your chances of data-retention or -recovery when one or more drives fails. Don't worry, they will, at some point. And if you use only drives from one batch, chances are the next drive fails before you have a chance to recover your data. By using different brands, you reduce this risk significantly.

 

Also, you don't need to buy a NAS enclosure, an old PC will do just fine, as long as the PSU has enough spare power for the additional HDDs. This also enables you to see if a NAS is what you need/want before biting the bullet and purchase a (semi-) commercial unit, like the Synology family (or others!) Additionally, I'd advice to double the projected/expected data capacity of the NAS, you'll fill it more quickly then you think!

 

So, for the OP case, use 4x 4TB drives in RAID6, mixed brands, in an old(er) PC case on a system w/o overclocking (!!). Dual-core minimum, preferably quad-core or better. As much RAM as your budget allows, taking into account the limits of the proc/mainboard. On the OS-side: Unraid and FreeNAS are popular choices, but a standard Linux install will do too, provided you're willing to spend some time configuring the system. If you've never used Linux before, the learning curve can be fairly steep, but fortunately you can divide the task in smaller sections to take step by step. Does take more time, so how much time is your data and wallet worth?

 

HTH!

[Blue4130]

4 hours ago, Dutch_Master said:

Google, Amazon, Ebay, twitter, FB are a few of the better known names. Then there's pretty much any data centre with 2k+ racks inside. But rarely do these outfits publish this kind of sensitive data, true.!

It's not useful if they don't publish the data. Kind of the point when I made that comment. (also, fb and Google have transitioned to solid state if I am not mistaken, can't say for certain if Amazon and eBay have) 

[Jtalk4456]

On 6/19/2020 at 4:44 AM, Dutch_Master said:

1. As for the OP, Red and Ironwolf are indeed the drives to look for. However, you shouldn't choose one, take both and preferably, add at least one more manufacturer as well. This will improve your chances of data-retention or -recovery when one or more drives fails. Don't worry, they will, at some point. And if you use only drives from one batch, chances are the next drive fails before you have a chance to recover your data. By using different brands, you reduce this risk significantly.

 

2. Also, you don't need to buy a NAS enclosure, an old PC will do just fine, as long as the PSU has enough spare power for the additional HDDs. This also enables you to see if a NAS is what you need/want before biting the bullet and purchase a (semi-) commercial unit, like the Synology family (or others!) Additionally, I'd advice to double the projected/expected data capacity of the NAS, you'll fill it more quickly then you think!

 

So, for the OP case, use 4x 4TB drives in RAID6, mixed brands, in an old(er) PC case on a system w/o overclocking (!!). Dual-core minimum, preferably quad-core or better. As much RAM as your budget allows, taking into account the limits of the proc/mainboard. On the OS-side: Unraid and FreeNAS are popular choices, but a standard Linux install will do too, provided you're willing to spend some time configuring the system. If you've never used Linux before, the learning curve can be fairly steep, but fortunately you can divide the task in smaller sections to take step by step. Does take more time, so how much time is your data and wallet worth?

 

HTH!

1. Interesting, I've always assumed grabbing the same brand is best, but that makes sense. Thanks for the advice!

2. If I don't have a spare old PC, would it still make sense then having to buy a pc for the purpose? Also space is pretty limited based on the spot my router sits, but a nas would fit just fine.

3. I like the idea, but that's a bit out of my budget. 4tb models are running 150 each, so 4 would be 600 right there, not counting any enclosure or old pc. 2 tb models are running ~85 so even if i got a 4 bay NAS, I'm cutting the drive cost in half there. Like I said 500 is the high side of the budget.

As for software, being an ltt viewer i've definitely heard of unraid and freenas. I think if I can find a good guide I'd prefer to use linux as I would also be learning about linux which I plan to do anyways. Having said that, If I go with a NAS unit plugged into the back of the router, do I still have the same choices or will the NAS come preconfigured with it's own software?

[Dutch_Master]

7 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

1. Interesting, I've always assumed grabbing the same brand is best, but that makes sense. Thanks for the advice!

2. If I don't have a spare old PC, would it still make sense then having to buy a pc for the purpose? Also space is pretty limited based on the spot my router sits, but a nas would fit just fine.

3. I like the idea, but that's a bit out of my budget. 4tb models are running 150 each, so 4 would be 600 right there, not counting any enclosure or old pc. 2 tb models are running ~85 so even if i got a 4 bay NAS, I'm cutting the drive cost in half there. Like I said 500 is the high side of the budget.

As for software, being an ltt viewer i've definitely heard of unraid and freenas. I think if I can find a good guide I'd prefer to use linux as I would also be learning about linux which I plan to do anyways. Having said that, If I go with a NAS unit plugged into the back of the router, do I still have the same choices or will the NAS come preconfigured with it's own software?

1) You're welcome

2) That depends on your preferences. You can definitely get a cheap suitable Dell, IBM or HP unit from the used market, but you can only spend that money once. But for sure it'll be cheaper then a Synology NAS or something similar.

3) Fair point. Your budget is leading here.

 

A NAS usually has it's own OS installed, proprietary by default but most likely a locked-down version of Linux or BSD with a dressed-up UI. That's fine as you pay for it. If you go the old-PC route, you get to choose which Linux distro to use and have full control over it, but the learning curve is fairly steep if it's your first foray into Linux and it won't work directly out-of-the-box, you'll need to configure it. Though, you would have to do the same with a NAS, but that one has a shiny UI to guide you through it. Not so on Linux. But there's ways around that. First, use Webmin to configure stuff. It's essentially a web-based UI that negates the risk of syntax errors. You could also use a cloud-solution, who has a nice UI for sharing the storage space across your network, like Nextcloud or Owncloud. Note it's not exactly the same as a NAS but it does circumvent paying for nice GUIs on Unraid, etc. Your call!

[The_Ellimist]

Based on the responses another option would be an old N54L HP Microserver. You can use ECC ram on those for freenas and I can see them in your price range on ebay.

 

The only thing I would say that hasn't been mentioned in the thread is don't buy SMR drives. Before all the news about them I've had a couple specifically for archiving data which they work perfectly well for but in a NAS it is a no no because of rebuild times and if you end up using ZFS it can be even worse.

[MISTERDIEABETIC]

On 6/19/2020 at 3:14 AM, Blue4130 said:

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/hard-drive-test-data.html

 

And for reference. Here is the site. It's likely the most comprehensive HDD testing information around, there are not many places that have over 129,000 hdds in use. 

Well here's a good relevant video to watch on the subject haha

 

[Jtalk4456]

20 hours ago, Dutch_Master said:

1) You're welcome

2) That depends on your preferences. You can definitely get a cheap suitable Dell, IBM or HP unit from the used market, but you can only spend that money once. But for sure it'll be cheaper then a Synology NAS or something similar.

3) Fair point. Your budget is leading here.

 

A NAS usually has it's own OS installed, proprietary by default but most likely a locked-down version of Linux or BSD with a dressed-up UI. That's fine as you pay for it. If you go the old-PC route, you get to choose which Linux distro to use and have full control over it, but the learning curve is fairly steep if it's your first foray into Linux and it won't work directly out-of-the-box, you'll need to configure it. Though, you would have to do the same with a NAS, but that one has a shiny UI to guide you through it. Not so on Linux. But there's ways around that. First, use Webmin to configure stuff. It's essentially a web-based UI that negates the risk of syntax errors. You could also use a cloud-solution, who has a nice UI for sharing the storage space across your network, like Nextcloud or Owncloud. Note it's not exactly the same as a NAS but it does circumvent paying for nice GUIs on Unraid, etc. Your call!

Hmm, so space still being a constraint, I have 2 options. 

1. Old PC or used server. Have to find a space for either, but can then plug into router with some wiring work done. Gives me more freedom, but more work, more to learn, and more chance for error.

2. Space efficient NAS. Simple GUI, more locked down for software but still good and useful. Learning focus would be more on just networking on the User side and less learning how to build the actual server, but that gives me more time to focus on setting everything up right and less on trying to learn Linux. I want to learn it eventually, but jumping straight from no knowledge to configuring a server seems a bit risky to me. 

 

I'm honestly leaning more towards the NAS, but as I said price is a big factor here. So Assuming the drives as a cost either way, I can take 500 and minus minimum 2 2tb drives for about 90 each when you count in tax, so 180.

That takes the budget down to 320 right there for a 2 bay nas or old pc. 

If I get 4 drives that's 360 gone for a remaining 140 to get either a 4 bay nas or an old pc/server

 

So final options.

1. Old PC/Server - Budget 140 - Flexibility and freedom, 4 drives, have to find a space and do some rewiring

Main concern is can i get anything decent for that cost?

2. Old PC/Server - Budget 320 - Flexibility and freedom, 2 drives, have to find a space and do some rewiring

Can definitely find an old pc for that cost, but not sure about the used server market, and not at all sure what brands and models to look for if going with servers

3. NAS - Budget 140 - Easy to setup and use, 4 drives, space efficient

Does a 4 bay NAS even exist that cheap outside of used and is a used NAS still acceptable?

4. NAS - Budget 320 - Easy to setup and use, 2 drives, space efficient

Can find a 4 bay at that price, which gives me room for expansion later, or just grab a 2 NAS and have more budget room to buy bigger storage or just save money

 

So, what brands of NAS or server to look for? I hear synology all the time for NAS but I've also seen a lot of QNAP when shopping and a few other brand names here and there

As it comes to servers I have literally no clue what to look for. 

 

Also I found this from lenovo at a deep discount because the model is being discontinued. Is the 300 price cut worth losing warranty support? Is that model even good outside of being discontinued?

https://www.centrix-intl.com/product/lenovo-iomega-ix4-300d-4-bay-diskless-raid-5-cloud-model-70b89003ap/?dTribesID=RwxwU4kBzxxV3Kd5ya8dB1KJd9d1SWrC|adtribes|2631&utm_source=Google Shopping&utm_campaign=Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Froogle&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=2631&gclid=CjwKCAjwrcH3BRApEiwAxjdPTR1ZrUdgUs6sziFAzfF4fuKrSm5m8fG06eZzIE9kHRbNDQJ1eUVPEBoC98MQAvD_BwE

 

Any suggestions links, etc are again greatly appreciated