Hey.com exec says Apple is acting like ‘gangsters,’ rejecting App Store updates and demanding cut of sales

[mr moose]

5 hours ago, Kisai said:

Oh, does it now? Did you miss where it probably had to install 15 year old versions of the Visual C/CPP/Basic runtime or the DirectX runtime? T

 

Did you read my post?  I just told you I am using more than 15 year old software right now that did not need me to do anything.

 

 

 

 

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, hishnash said:

 

That is not how signatures work, the signature is placed on the binnary result that is how you can validate it so if you mofiy the binnary you can resigne. The only way of doing what you are saying is if to produce signed code it needed to be compiled form 100% sourced on apples servers (no static stared libs). Basicly the developer would not have acess to thier own private keys that is the only way to stop them signing.
 

The point here was that it can't run a binary that isn't signed, and the compiler will only self-sign something it compiles itself from a verified source (which is what FreeBSD and Linux package managers do.)

 

There's several scenarios, but the scenario this explicitly trying to dodge is the "pirate" binary, since the pirate will not have access to the source code, and the device will not run a "cracked" binary, nor an app package that has been modified that doesn't match the keys.

 

If you start assuming that everyone is a pirate and/or an idiot, then then it doesn't matter how well you you try to protect the, it only takes a single instance of "sandbox for (device)" being side loaded, even if open source to blow away any sense of security the device has.

[Kisai]

8 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Did you read my post?  I just told you I am using more than 15 year old software right now that did not need me to do anything.

 

Did you? I said Microsoft explicitly takes pains to make sure that old software works, but it clearly will not work if you don't reinstall it so the system libraries are reinstalled. This is not true of Mac OSX or Linux, and especially not true of mobile devices.

 

Very few programs are statically compiled, and only those programs survive dependency hell.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Kisai said:

Did you?

 

No I didn't, I only said one thing and your first sentence clearly indicated you did not read it.  Why should I read the rest of your post if it starts out dismissing the only thing I said?

[Kisai]

Just now, mr moose said:

No I didn't, I only said one thing and your first sentence clearly indicated you did not read it.  Why should I read the rest of your post if it starts out dismissing the only thing I said?

Then go back and read it and edit your post.

[mr moose]

4 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Then go back and read it and edit your post.

 

 

You: no OS will run 15 year old software:

Me: I am running 15 year old software on windows10  no problems or issues.

you: you probably had to do other stuff.

Me, no it just works.

 

YOU: read my post again.

 

 

why?

[Bombastinator]

No, never, any, all, and always are rarely totally correct.  There will always be edge cases.  (Note the use of “always”)

[Kisai]

5 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

 

You: no OS will run 15 year old software:

Me: I am running 15 year old software on windows10  no problems or issues.

you: you probably had to do other stuff.

Me, no it just works.

 

YOU: read my post again.

 

 

why?

If you installed the software correctly, maybe it works. If you simply plugged in a drive that was previously in a WinXP machine and tried to run anything chances are very little of it would run due to missing libraries.

 

Go ahead, find that old copy of Vintage Win98 starcraft 2 and try and run it.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Kisai said:

If you installed the software correctly, maybe it works. If you simply plugged in a drive that was previously in a WinXP machine and tried to run anything chances are very little of it would run due to missing libraries.

 

Go ahead, find that old copy of Vintage Win98 starcraft 2 and try and run it.

NO,  not "maybe",  it does work.  Why is that so hard to accept?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

since I’ve never been know to pay much attention to what’s good for me I’m going to ignore my instincts screaming “run you fool run!” And jump in on this one.

How about this?:

 

the more complex a system is the more likely it is to fail.  Very simple systems are frequently surprisingly robust.   “Hello world” and Crysis could both be considered software.  Would “hello world” compiled in c++ for vista still run under win10?  There’s a pretty good shot.  In Java? I’d put money on that working. The compiler used to compile “hello world” for c++ though?  Less likely.

[Trik'Stari]

It's almost as if Apple is an anti-capitalistic pile of shit that should have been crushed by the free market, a very long time ago.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Trik'Stari said:

It's almost as if Apple is an anti-capitalistic pile of shit that should have been crushed by the free market, a very long time ago.

The problem is they built their company on gen y vanity, had they tried this shit in the 80's when gen X was at that impressionable age group they would have failed...oh wait,  they did try back then and they did fail.    

 

Remember all those companies that tried to put out proprietary stuff and not let other use it? like memory stick and the original mac.  Yeah, the free market sent them to the poor house pretty quickly.  Form memory the memory stick only lasted a yer and half before they stopped making it and the mac had to be saved by bill gates investing in apple and allowing office on mac.

 

 

[Curious Pineapple]

18 hours ago, Kisai said:

If you installed the software correctly, maybe it works. If you simply plugged in a drive that was previously in a WinXP machine and tried to run anything chances are very little of it would run due to missing libraries.

 

Go ahead, find that old copy of Vintage Win98 starcraft 2 and try and run it.

If you simply plug in a drive that was previously in any Linux machine and try executing an application, the chances are very little of it would run due to missing libraries and dependencies.

 

Works both ways too you know, that's why installers and package managers are a thing, to ensure that all requirements are there.

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Curious Pineapple said:

If you simply plug in a drive that was previously in any Linux machine and try executing an application, the chances are very little of it would run due to missing libraries and dependencies.

 

Works both ways too you know, that's why installers and package managers are a thing, to ensure that all requirements are there.

 

The entire point of that argument was that the way we install software is horrific and having to "install" something rather than just move it from disk D to disk F tends to just obliterate it's ability to run is a problem. Missing system libraries, is not unique to Linux. Those two EA messages are Mass Effect 1 and 2 respectively.

 

 

Quote

apt-get: /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.14' not found (required by /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6)

Linux

 

Quote

dyld: Library not loaded: /usr/lib/libc++.1.dylib

OSX

 

Windows

 

When people have this entire anti-DRM attitude and go "well I want to back up my software"... look at this mess. Even if you can backup your installed software, you typically will not be able to restore it.

 

This is an argument that shows up at the office every so often. I can move their data to a new machine, but the installed software due to licencing shenanigans, or shared libraries (AutoCAD is truely horrific if you install different languages) has to be reinstalled.

 

This isn't even getting into "cd-rom must be in the drive" type installs.

[Curious Pineapple]

33 minutes ago, Kisai said:

 

The entire point of that argument was that the way we install software is horrific and having to "install" something rather than just move it from disk D to disk F tends to just obliterate it's ability to run is a problem. Missing system libraries, is not unique to Linux. Those two EA messages are Mass Effect 1 and 2 respectively.

 

 

Linux

 

OSX

 

Windows

 

When people have this entire anti-DRM attitude and go "well I want to back up my software"... look at this mess. Even if you can backup your installed software, you typically will not be able to restore it.

 

This is an argument that shows up at the office every so often. I can move their data to a new machine, but the installed software due to licencing shenanigans, or shared libraries (AutoCAD is truely horrific if you install different languages) has to be reinstalled.

 

This isn't even getting into "cd-rom must be in the drive" type installs.

And your point is? You have shown a load of screenshots of Windows displaying errors in the GUI and 1 each for Linux and Mac in the command line. Trying to make Windows out to be worse? One isn't even a Windows error, it's from EA, and another could simply be trying to run a 64 bit program on a 32 bit OS.

 

They are exactly the same thing. What happens when a manufacturer makes a product obsolete and pushes new drivers through Windows updates that brick it? No doubt you just go out like a good little consumer and buy a new one instead of being able to use an older unsigned driver that actually works. Yes it happened, and yes I have to reinstall the old driver if I ever remove the device. PL2032 USB to UART converter, should I really be forced into a new one just because ther manufacturer says so? Considering how often you defend such practices I don't need an answer, I already know it.

 

I'll stick to actually being able to compile code on one machine then run it over the network on another, and use odd drivers for obscure hardware thanks. I don't need to be wrapped in bubble wrap and have every aspect of my machine controlled by the manufacturer. I can handle the mammoth task of inserting more RAM myself

[Kisai]

2 minutes ago, Curious Pineapple said:

And your point is? You have shown a load of screenshots of Windows displaying errors in the GUI and 1 each for Linux and Mac in the command line. Trying to make Windows out to be worse? One isn't even a Windows error, it's from EA, and another could simply be trying to run a 64 bit program on a 32 bit OS.

 

I went through every single game on my "games drive" and ran the main executable, some of these games were installed one or two OS's ago. Those Mass Effect installs? Don't work at all. Why? probably online DRM. They were last launched probably 10 years ago.

 

The ones I skipped were ones asking to insert the CD-ROM, and the ones that were clearly 16-bit from the 8.3 executable name in all-caps. Some of these were even GOG titles. For example, trying to run KQ8 (which was a late 3DFX glide api title from 1998) didn't work the first three times I ran it, but mysteriously ran the fourth time after Windows automagically applied some fix.

 

There were some other titles that just immediately exited with no error message like the FF8PC demo.

 

I don't have a collection of Mac and Linux error messages, because I don't have games on these these OS's, and OSX in particular, the only game I have on it is the Sims 3. Another EA title. I've just gotten fed up with trying to run EA titles on the PC, it's just too much of a hassle to make work, even if you buy it and run it through Origin. This is also why I have no love for the Epic Game store, and the current version of Steam's "webUI" style. They drain the PC of performance.

 

And yet, some of you seem to think that your device should have several bad app stores competing with the same titles rather than one less-bad app store that at least will install things correctly.

[Curious Pineapple]

2 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I went through every single game on my "games drive" and ran the main executable, some of these games were installed one or two OS's ago. Those Mass Effect installs? Don't work at all. Why? probably online DRM. They were last launched probably 10 years ago.

 

The ones I skipped were ones asking to insert the CD-ROM, and the ones that were clearly 16-bit from the 8.3 executable name in all-caps. Some of these were even GOG titles. For example, trying to run KQ8 (which was a late 3DFX glide api title from 1998) didn't work the first three times I ran it, but mysteriously ran the fourth time after Windows automagically applied some fix.

 

There were some other titles that just immediately exited with no error message like the FF8PC demo.

 

I don't have a collection of Mac and Linux error messages, because I don't have games on these these OS's, and OSX in particular, the only game I have on it is the Sims 3. Another EA title. I've just gotten fed up with trying to run EA titles on the PC, it's just too much of a hassle to make work, even if you buy it and run it through Origin. This is also why I have no love for the Epic Game store, and the current version of Steam's "webUI" style. They drain the PC of performance.

 

And yet, some of you seem to think that your device should have several bad app stores competing with the same titles rather than one less-bad app store that at least will install things correctly.

What does copying games and trying to launch them have to do with being able to install and run an older application anyway? And which bad app stores? I have no issue with Epic or Steam, they don't drain any performance and I have an old machine. I have no issues installing and running Visual Studio 2003 by the way, works perfectly.

 

You are the one that has turned it from installing older programs to trying to prove that copying an old application over without installing doesn't always work.

[Kisai]

1 minute ago, Curious Pineapple said:

What does copying games and trying to launch them have to do with being able to install and run an older application anyway? And which bad app stores? I have no issue with Epic or Steam, they don't drain any performance and I have an old machine. I have no issues installing and running Visual Studio 2003 by the way, works perfectly.

 

You are the one that has turned it from installing older programs to trying to prove that copying an old application over without installing doesn't always work.

 

Because you're missing the point. Just because X OS can run Y application still, doesn't mean it's possible to install it (eg software that came on discs, floppies) , as some have egregious installation behavior (eg Adobe, Autodesk products, games with DRM) that modifies the disk or OS. 

 

The native app store, at least on OSX/iOS installs an entirely self-contained package, that can be moved from machine to machine, disk to disk, and still works unless, as I stated with the Adobe products, or something like VLC, where it has a dependency on it's installation behavior and system libraries. Most OSX software is a "package", where in the UI the entire program is just the one icon and you can literately put it anywhere, and it will still work. Not so of software downloaded via Homebrew or MacPorts, which will stomp on each other and.

 

FreeBSD, which traditionally made you install the source code and compile it, has the same problem with the binary package manager, they install into the same place, thus they stomp on each other unless you do the same thing you do with Gentoo and start telling the package manager to not/never install anything you install from source, and then you end up with an OS that never gets updated because it's hamstrung by that ONE thing you decided you needed to install from source since the binary package manager will not install anything without the dependencies.

 

Linux's behavior is the reverse of FreeBSD, where most software is installed by binaries, but no two flavors of Linux are alike, and thus it's a total crapshoot if you can run anything or for entirely political reasons one flavor of linux has opted not to create binaries for something, thus leading you to have to install it from source, and then never being able to update the system libraries without having recompile everything compiled by source.

 

Linux OS's and *BSD are pure utter hell to deal with 

Software you need, will suddenly demand you update the OS, even though nothing is gained by doing so.  So now not only do you have to update the OS, you have to update everything else, which as I've been saying in the last few messages, you can't simply do without re-doing their entire install process, which might not even exist anymore.

 

The "app" store model, at least as far OSX and iOS goes, is basically the previous "all-in-one package" model, where there is no dependency nonsense. It's very hard to break something that is packaged this way, but cross-platform software (eg VLC) will break because it's been compiled to use system libraries that do not exist on later versions of the OS.

 

And when we get into the entire PPC/x86/x86-64/ARM/AARCH64 packaging problem. If you compile anything with cmake on Linux it sometimes will work, because it will only compile the 64-bit version for the OS it's on, but if you do this on windows, it will dump 32-bit and 64-bit versions into the same "bin" directory, thus leading to another entire world of dependency hell. Again, somehow OSX managed to get out ahead here with the "fat binary" model, that Linux, BSD and Windows do not have.

 

Adding more app stores does not make this less complicated.

 

 

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Curious Pineapple said:

<snip>

Nope,  Just simplify the discussion to what was said and what the case is and ignore the rest, if it doesn't apply to anything you said or makes little sense to the discussion then it doesn't need to be responded to. 

 

The last few posts of discussion is this simple:

 

Can 15 year old software work on new OS's without issues?  yes.

 

Does 15 year old software sometimes have issue on mew OS's?  yes, but that wasn't the point nor the posed problem,  so stop trying to turn it into the point and either go back to the original claim and defend it with evidence or accept it isn't true.

 

And new to the discussion; when it fails is that intentional and is it bad? yes it's bad if it is intentional.  no one should defend that.

 

It really isn't any more complex than that. 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by SansVarnic
Snipped quote

[Bombastinator]

38 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Nope,  Just simplify the discussion to what was said and what the case is and ignore the rest, if it doesn't apply to anything you said or makes little sense to the discussion then it doesn't need to be responded to. 

 

The last few posts of discussion is this simple:

 

Can 15 year old software work on new OS's without issues?  yes.

 

Does 15 year old software sometimes have issue on mew OS's?  yes, but that wasn't the point nor the posed problem,  so stop trying to turn it into the point and either go back to the original claim and defend it with evidence or accept it isn't true.

 

And new to the discussion; when it fails is that intentional and is it bad? yes it's bad if it is intentional.  no one should defend that.

 

It really isn't any more complex than that. 

 

 

“sometimes” is a fuzzy word.  More so than “can” but it can be used fuzzily too.