psu Does anyone think a 240 W power supply will be able to power this system?

[ExpiredTangent]

so i have an old hp 8300 elite sff pc with a proprietary power supply, both electrically and physically not compatible with a usual psu. 

does anyone think 240W is enough to run the motherboard, a ssd, the cpu (an i5 3470 ~80W tdp), and a slot powered graphics card, something like a rx 460 or  a gtx 1050. 

[LionSpeck]

Should be fine, although I wouldn't consider it reliable if you're planning on doing something that isn't just gaming, i.e. content creation that requires lots of processing power from both CPU and GPU. Should be fine if all you want to do is gaming

[The Torrent]

personally i wouldn't not at all.

 

without a gpu fine. but i wouldn't at all with a gpu.

[ExpiredTangent]

dont worry about it, local school was throwing them out, its a junker rig at best. 

[LionSpeck]

Also, I'd like to add that I don't consider particularly reliable those integrated PSUs with prebuilt systems, especially those Optiplexes and such (basically desktop PCs for Chrome and Office). Check and post the 12V rail max current, or preferably a picture of the PSU tag with the specs, as many of these PSUs have a higher total Watts rating than the max Watts on the 12V that actually matters

[LionSpeck]

2 minutes ago, The Torrent said:

personally i wouldn't not at all.

 

without a gpu fine. but i wouldn't at all with a gpu.

Yeah, it's quite a stretch, but since Nvidia suggests a minimum 300W PSU for the 1050 and the CPU of this system would probably have a lower-than-average consumption (also considering the power saving tuning done in this kind of system), I would say it's safe. Not reliable for 24/7 gaming, but doable for casual daily use

[Oalei]

its going to be fine, but if youre gaming and have the game crashes than probably the PSU is dying.

 

1050 no pin is only 75W so that is something you should not concern yourself with.

[ExpiredTangent]

33 minutes ago, LionSpeck said:

Also, I'd like to add that I don't consider particularly reliable those integrated PSUs with prebuilt systems, especially those Optiplexes and such (basically desktop PCs for Chrome and Office). Check and post the 12V rail max current, or preferably a picture of the PSU tag with the specs, as many of these PSUs have a higher total Watts rating than the max Watts on the 12V that actually matters

whats the watts/ amperage you'd  recommend?

[mariushm]

The power supplies is good. They're made by a good OEM manufacturer, and they have at the minimum bronze efficiency.

For most of their life those systems consumed less than 100 watts so the power supply was almost never overloaded, overheated, which would cause the internal components of the power supply to degrade (ex. electrolytic capacitors degrade in quality over time if running at very warm ambient temperatures)

With such power supplies the highest concern would be the fan.. you'd want the fan to be running well. Worst case scenario, the power supply can be opened and the fan can be replaced.

 

Now, the TDP of a CPU is NOT the same as the power consumption of the CPU. It's the top of a range... for example a CPU rated for 54w TDP will probably consume between 40 and 50w, and one rated for 80w TDP may consume between 60w and 80w - depends on the number of cores, if there's hyperthreading or not, and the frequency of the CPU.

For example, if the CPU consumes up to 65w, they're not gonna made a TDP class of 65w, they'll simply put the CPU in the 80w TDP class, because they can't guarantee a cooler rated for 54w TDP will be enough to cool the CPU.

 

The i5-3470 consumes up to around 40-50w when gaming or encoding videos, in Windows will consume less.

IF you don't believe me, you can see the review here : https://www.anandtech.com/show/5871/intel-core-i5-3470-review-hd-2500-graphics-tested

Scroll down and you'll see the power of the whole system measured (whole system = motherboard, cpu, ram, video card) :

 

Your i5-3470 is in the middle. The difference between idle and full load is 97w - 55w = 42w. If you substract the motherboard, ram and video card idle power consumption, you can assume the CPU idles at around 10-15 watts.  So, the total CPU power consumption would be around 42+15= 57w. For safety, let's just go with 60w.

 

Your motherboard is basic, doesn't have a lot of stuff on it, so it won't consume more than around 15-20w powering the chipset, onboard audio, onboard network and the memory sticks. Each memory consumes around 2w and I'm including it in the 20w figure.

A mechanical hard drives consumes up to around 8w but for safety you can go with 10 watts.  A fan consumes around 2w.

 

So you can add those up : 60w cpu + 20w motherboard/ram + 10w hard drive(s) + 5w fans = 85w 

Your power supply can provide 240w, so you have a budget of 240w - 85w = 155w. 

 

For safety though, I would calculate things with a 215w budget, so if you use 215w , it means you have up to 215-85=130 watts to work with.

 

I would use any video card up to around 120w.

 

You have  (idle consumption , load aka gaming)

 

RX560 = 9W/79W
RX550 = 7W/45W

RX460 = 60-70w

R7 265 = 13W/103W
R7 260X = 4W/93W

 

GTX 1660Ti = 9W/125W (peak 135W)   - risky but could work -  you could go in control panel or msi afterburner
GTX 1660 = 8W/125W (peak 135W)  - risky but could work - and reduce power budget by 10-20% and shave 10-20w
GTX 1650 = 8W/80W

 

GTX1060 = 6W/122W - 3 GB models will use less than 122w
GTX1050Ti = 6W/75W
GTX1050 = 6W/75W

GTX960 = 7W/118W
GTX950 = 8W/103W

GTX 750Ti = 4W/57W

 

The power supply that comes with the system probably doesn't have a 6pin pci-e power connector, but you could wire one to the 12v and ground wires of the power supply or use a molex -> pci-e adapter cable.

Some video cards that consume 60-80w use a 6pin power connector, and split the power consumption in half : they take 25-40w through slot and 25-40w through the connector ... they take barely more in total than they would take from slot alone.

They use a 6pin connector when the max power consumption is very close to the maximum limit of a slot which is 75w , or when it's a card designed to allow overclocking (when you overclock, power consumption increases and may exceed 75w that's in slot, so they need to use extra pci-e power which otherwise may not be needed at all)

So basically don't be scared or reject a card just because it has a 6pin pci-e connector.

 

Another option you may have is to get an adapter cable which converts a regular power supply to the connectors the motherboard has.

With such cable, you could move everything in a regular case and power motherboard and everything from a standard atx power supply and then you would be able to use more power hungry video cards.

Here's example of such adapter cable, it's only around 8-15$ :

30cm 24-Pin to 6-Pin Power Supply Adapter Cable for HP Elite 8100 8200 8300 800G | eBay

ATX 24pin to 6pin Power Adapter Cable for HP Elite 8100 8200 8300 800G1 | eBay

ATX 24-Pin to 6-Pin PCI-E PSU Power Adapter for HP Elite 8100 8200 8300 | eBay

 

Another added bonus of using regular case and psu with one of the adapters above is that you'd be able to use regular height video cards - normally that case would limit you to low profile video cards which are rarer and often more expensive.

So yeah, you would spend maybe 40-50$ on case and some cheap 400-550w psu, but you'd be able to get a cheap 60$ rx460 or 80-100$ rx570 video card, instead of paying let's say 100$ for a low profile rx460 

At the end of the day, it costs you about the same money but you get higher video performance. A rx570 is kind of king at performance per money.

[LionSpeck]

36 minutes ago, ExpiredTangent said:

whats the watts/ amperage you'd  recommend?

Well, I'd recommend as much power as possible
I'm asking what can you PSU provide, as that will determine if it's going to support this rig at all. My thought of you rig working without issues is based on the assumption that the PSU will be able to provide all 240W on the 12V rail, which would mean 20A, but that's rarely the case for integrated PSUs; they generally have a lower rating on the 12V rail, as they rate the power as the sum of all the rails, which is technically not incorrect, but kind of misleading

[LionSpeck]

32 minutes ago, mariushm said:

 

This pretty much sums up everything there's to say on this
The info about the CPU power consumption vs TDP are what I assumed as true (from personal experience) and what lead me to think the rig would work no problem.
I'd like to add that if you buy a more performing GPU and DIY an adapter for the PCIe power, you'll very probably make a better overall purchase for the money, as you'll get more performance in a potential future rig, while buying a lower end GPU is basically limiting you to the same performance tier as your current system. AKA, you'll very likely end up wanting to upgrade your GPU again in the future

[mariushm]

@LionSpeck  if you have bothered to do a simple Google search you would have found it's a proprietary psu made for HP which only has 12v :

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-240W-power-supply-PSU-for-Pro-6000-6005-6200-Elite-8000-8200-8300-SFF-PC-/162739654159

 

 

As you can see the full 240w is on 12v rail, and you also have a 12v standby rail with  1.3a (~15w)

[LionSpeck]

2 minutes ago, mariushm said:

full 240w is on 12v rail

240W / 12V = 16A ? Lmao

[LionSpeck]

Also there's no need to be all salty, I generally tend to prefer getting the information from the direct source, as model numbers and revisions may make the specs vary. Thanks for making me point this out

[mariushm]

9 minutes ago, LionSpeck said:

240W / 12V = 16A ? Lmao

 

 

12v SB = 12v x 1.3A = 15.6w

12v CPU  = 12v x 16A = 192w

12v Main = 12v x 16A  = 192w

12v  Main + 12v CPU combined = 240w TOTAL

 

explanation : for safety, psu may trip protection and shut down, if you pull more than 192w from CPU connector, OR the Main connector.  But altogether , you can consume 240w.  ex... cpu consumes 80w from Vcpu (<192w), mb+ram+video card = 120-140w from Vmain(<192w) => total = 200w  (192w < 200-220w < 240w)

* mb and ram may be powered from Vcpu as well, no idea. doesn't matter anyway.

 

Math is hard.

 

 

 

 

[The Torrent]

On 10/5/2019 at 3:43 PM, LionSpeck said:

Yeah, it's quite a stretch, but since Nvidia suggests a minimum 300W PSU for the 1050 and the CPU of this system would probably have a lower-than-average consumption (also considering the power saving tuning done in this kind of system), I would say it's safe. Not reliable for 24/7 gaming, but doable for casual daily use

you gotta remember tho this things prob hella inefficient probably barely 80 plus especially with age true wattage its capable off is probably much lower.

 

[seon123]

44 minutes ago, The Torrent said:

you gotta remember tho this things prob hella inefficient probably barely 80 plus

I recommend not spreading misinformation.

Here's the actual 80+ testing results for HP PSUs. As you can see, they're quite efficient; not that efficiency really matters, compared to the performance, protections and noise. It takes like 10 seconds to look up, it's not exactly rocket science.

https://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80PlusPowerSuppliesDetail.aspx?id=41&type=2

45 minutes ago, The Torrent said:

especially with age true wattage its capable off is probably much lower.

That's not how this works. Why do you think that this is the case?

[mariushm]

1 hour ago, The Torrent said:

you gotta remember tho this things prob hella inefficient probably barely 80 plus especially with age true wattage its capable off is probably much lower.

 

Jesus, you're so irritating. You obviously don't know shit about electronics yet you keep spewing incorrect things.

 

The power supply is  more or less gold efficiency: 

Scroll down to Small Form Factor on this page : https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-compaq-elite-8300-ultra-slim-pc/5232866/document/c03345460

 

Standard efficiency	240-W active PFC
High efficiency	240-W active PFC; 87/90/87% efficient at 20/50/100% load

Here's the 80plus definition:

 

 

It's normal to be very efficient, because it only has to output one voltage (that matters), 12v. Regular power supplies also need to output 3.3v and 5v.

 

Also you get 240w to components inside your PC regardless of the efficiency of the power supply. What is printed is what's given to components.

 

You can understand efficiency by saying it like this: 

If the components in the PC consume X watts, those X watts represent THIS MUCH % of the power the power supply took from the mains socket. 

So for this 240w PSU, 20% is 48w, 50% is 120w and 100% is 240w

If the components consume 48w, this represents 87% of the total power consumption of the psu => Power = 100% x 48 / 87% = 55 watts

If the components consume 120w, this represents 90% of the total power consumption of the psu => Power = 100% x 120 / 90% = 133 watts

If the components consume 240w, this represents 90% of the total power consumption of the psu => Power = 100% x 240 / 87% = 275 watts

 

Even if what you say about a power supply degrading over time, which is not really true, at best the power supply would lose around 5-10% of its maximum output power, which would be around 20 watts.

 

 

 

[The Torrent]

2 hours ago, seon123 said:

I recommend not spreading misinformation.

Here's the actual 80+ testing results for HP PSUs. As you can see, they're quite efficient; not that efficiency really matters, compared to the performance, protections and noise. It takes like 10 seconds to look up, it's not exactly rocket science.

https://www.plugloadsolutions.com/80PlusPowerSuppliesDetail.aspx?id=41&type=2

That's not how this works. Why do you think that this is the case?

i just dont see running a 7 year old used daily power supply on basically all day as schools have them trust worthy to power at its max output.

1 hour ago, mariushm said:

Jesus, you're so irritating. You obviously don't know shit about electronics yet you keep spewing incorrect things.

 

The power supply is  more or less gold efficiency: 

Scroll down to Small Form Factor on this page : https://support.hp.com/us-en/product/hp-compaq-elite-8300-ultra-slim-pc/5232866/document/c03345460

 

Standard efficiency	240-W active PFC
High efficiency	240-W active PFC; 87/90/87% efficient at 20/50/100% load

Here's the 80plus definition:

 

 

It's normal to be very efficient, because it only has to output one voltage (that matters), 12v. Regular power supplies also need to output 3.3v and 5v.

 

Also you get 240w to components inside your PC regardless of the efficiency of the power supply. What is printed is what's given to components.

 

You can understand efficiency by saying it like this: 

If the components in the PC consume X watts, those X watts represent THIS MUCH % of the power the power supply took from the mains socket. 

So for this 240w PSU, 20% is 48w, 50% is 120w and 100% is 240w

If the components consume 48w, this represents 87% of the total power consumption of the psu => Power = 100% x 48 / 87% = 55 watts

If the components consume 120w, this represents 90% of the total power consumption of the psu => Power = 100% x 120 / 90% = 133 watts

If the components consume 240w, this represents 90% of the total power consumption of the psu => Power = 100% x 240 / 87% = 275 watts

 

Even if what you say about a power supply degrading over time, which is not really true, at best the power supply would lose around 5-10% of its maximum output power, which would be around 20 watts.

 

 

 

tl;dr sorry